Environmental impact and the "Fall"

[Jane_the_Bane]

I've read some hypotheses stating that the Biblical story of the "Fall" echoes the transition from nomadic hunter-gatherer societies to agriculture - as well as some of the environmental disasters that followed from it.

See, contrary to popular belief, hunter-gatherers live a relatively carefree existence: the few ethnic groups who still embrace this lifestyle work approximately three to five hours per adult worker a day, and the concept of scarcity or accumulating resources is virtually unheard of.

Agriculture provided but one (extremely significant) advantage: sustaining a larger populace. Even if people were less healthy, toiled more, and had MUCH more to worry about, the sheer numbers favored this new lifestyle's success.
But the transition was most certainly traumatic - especially when the first agricultural societies started to overstrain their environment, and the damage caught up with them.

In a way that was certainly not anticipated by the authors of the Bible, the environmental degradation perpetuated by ancient civilizations comes much closer to exemplify "missing the mark" than the culture-specific taboos usually associated with the term "sin". They destroyed themselved in a quest for advancement.

 

[archer75]

I can't say I'm expert on the various collapses of ancient civilizations, but I like the post.

The very notion of scooping up extra resources for "yourself" (i.e. - keeping and manipulating currency) has always been repellent to me.

Further, it always seems to me that that idea is explicitly against a pretty clear teaching of Jesus: Matthew 6:19-34.

I never understand why all the fear and trembling over some trivial matter when our entire money-culture, which is clearly against this teaching, just gets hand-waved.

 

[ExodusMe]

I can't say I'm expert on the various collapses of ancient civilizations, but I like the post.

The very notion of scooping up extra resources for "yourself" (i.e. - keeping and manipulating currency) has always been repellent to me.

Further, it always seems to me that that idea is explicitly against a pretty clear teaching of Jesus: Matthew 6:19-34.

I never understand why all the fear and trembling over some trivial matter when our entire money-culture, which is clearly against this teaching, just gets hand-waved.

It seems like you are saying the only cause of the industrialization (or general advancement) of civilization is due to human sinfulness. The bible does not teach this. In Matthew 6:19-34 Jesus teaches that we should seek to 'lay up treasures in heaven', but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be industrious. Read proverbs. There are numerous teachings regarding being industrious and this was during an agriculture society.

I would argue that God has allowed the environmental degradation of the earth for the following reason: God desires for as many persons to come into relationship with him as possible. The exploitation of fossil fuels to improve agriculture is the greatest contributing factor to the increase in human population. It also makes sense of what purpose life had prior to humanity as dinosaurs & other life would later provide fossil fuels to humanity.

 

[dlamberth]

I would argue that God has allowed the environmental degradation of the earth for the following reason:....

Sorry, it's not God's fault that we have raped and desecrated His Creation.

 

[ExodusMe]

Sorry, it's not God's fault that we have raped and desecrated His Creation.

Nice soundbyte, but it didn't really deal with anything I said. I don't think it is God's fault, because he planned it. God is great and his plans are great also. Greater than preserving the environment too. I just have an honest perspective of reality.

By the way, rape? You insult anyone who has actually been a victim of sexual assault. I would say a number of things, but they would probably net me getting banned, so I'll save it for another day.

 

[dlamberth]

By the way, rape? You insult anyone who has actually been a victim of sexual assault. I would say a number of things, but they would probably net me getting banned, so I'll save it for another day.

I'm sorry if I've insulted you. I suspect you have good reason to feel as you do. I do not wish to disrespect anyone. But, and I say this with all honesty, I'm unable to think of any other word or action to describe what we are doing to this Sacred Creation of God. Though I also like the image that Wendell Berry creates when he says: "There are no sacred and unsacred places; there are only sacred and desecrated places." It's "how" we are desecrating the earth which caused me to used the word I used.

 

[ExodusMe]

God gave humanity dominion over the earth. Environmentalism is just the elevation of the environment over humanity. It is a reversal of God's ordination. The fall resulted in environmentalism.

Considering God plans to obliterate the entire earth according to revelation are you sure you understand God's view of the environment?

 

[awitch]

Considering God plans to obliterate the entire earth according to revelation are you sure you understand God's view of the environment?

Sooo...is this going to happen soon or should I keep saving for retirement?

 

[ExodusMe]

Sooo...is this going to happen soon or should I keep saving for retirement?

I don't know maybe ask Him

 

[awitch]

I don't know maybe ask Him

He said it's not going to happen for a few millions years and we need to do a better job taking care of the environment.

 

[cloudyday2]

I always imagined Adam and Eve as vegetarians. Is there any tradition where Adam and Eve hunt in the Garden of Eden? It seems like hunting was the glamorous and manly part of hunting and gathering, so it needs to be in the myth for it to describe a transition to agriculture.

 

[cloudyday2]

God gave humanity dominion over the earth. Environmentalism is just the elevation of the environment over humanity. It is a reversal of God's ordination. The fall resulted in environmentalism.

Considering God plans to obliterate the entire earth according to revelation are you sure you understand God's view of the environment?

Even if the Earth will be remade in the Second Coming, what Christian goal is served by the activities that harm the environment? This is like suggesting that Christians should eat lots of junk food because they will get new bodies in the Second Coming. Does gorging on Twinkies help spread the Good News?

 

[awitch]

Even if the Earth will be remade in the Second Coming, what Christian goal is served by the activities that harm the environment? This is like suggesting that Christians should eat lots of junk food because they will get new bodies in the Second Coming. Does gorging on Twinkies help spread the Good News?

I think it is driven less by religion and more by politics.
The Republican party gets a lot of money from oil and other fossil fuel industries in return for reduced restrictions on environmental protection. They can sell it to the Christian base with lines like "Jesus is returning soon anyway", or "God will provide", or they can just deny the science which many Christians already distrust.

It's really about the money.

 

[Silmarien]

God gave humanity dominion over the earth. Environmentalism is just the elevation of the environment over humanity. It is a reversal of God's ordination. The fall resulted in environmentalism.

Considering God plans to obliterate the entire earth according to revelation are you sure you understand God's view of the environment?

Not setting your own house on fire while you're still inside is going against God's ordinance?

Dominion doesn't mean wanton destruction and exploitation--dominion has always meant responsible care and custodianship. Right there in Genesis 2:15, Adam was intended to take care of the Garden of Eden, not to burn it to the ground.

There's a word for the idea that the material world doesn't matter, and it's Gnosticism.

 

[cloudyday2]

I think it is driven less by religion and more by politics.
The Republican party gets a lot of money from oil and other fossil fuel industries in return for reduced restrictions on environmental protection. They can sell it to the Christian base with lines like "Jesus is returning soon anyway", or "God will provide", or they can just deny the science which many Christians already distrust.

It's really about the money.

I think some of it is that each party has cozy relationships with various political interests. The Evangelical Christians developed a coziness with the Republican party. As a result the Evangelical Christian leaders are willing to promote the entire package of the Republican agenda to their followers. If the thneed manufacturers donate money to the Republicans then the Evangelical televangelists will add some remarks in their sermons about how awful it is that some people want to protect the truffula trees which are actually in no danger of extinction. They don't care about thneeds or truffula trees, but they do care about other things like school prayer and abortion that are part of the package.

Also, it seems that environmental regulations are sometimes used by one industry to hamstring a competing industry. Neither side actually cares about the science or the environment - just money (like you said). (A lot of the alternatives to oil seem to be as bad or worse than oil. I don't pretend to be an expert, but I think nuclear power ought to be promoted more. IDK)

 

[dlamberth]

God gave humanity dominion over the earth. Environmentalism is just the elevation of the environment over humanity. It is a reversal of God's ordination. The fall resulted in environmentalism.

Considering God plans to obliterate the entire earth according to revelation are you sure you understand God's view of the environment?

It's my belief that Christianity with it's image of God separate and apart from His own creation has given rise to a great loss of a sense of sacredness that the earth is. Looking around at the state of the earth, I further believe that trajectory of non-sacredness has a lot to do with the poisoned earth that we have today. Sad!

 

[Taom Ben Robert]

God gave humanity dominion over the earth. Environmentalism is just the elevation of the environment over humanity. It is a reversal of God's ordination. The fall resulted in environmentalism.

Considering God plans to obliterate the entire earth according to revelation are you sure you understand God's view of the environment?

Humanity is called to carry his name across creation and to care for creation . Not burn it to the ground .
And restoring His creation at the Second Coming is not obliterating it.

 

[ExodusMe]

Humanity is called to carry his name across creation and to care for creation . Not burn it to the ground .
And restoring His creation at the Second Coming is not obliterating it.

Just to clarify, I am very much for taking care of the environment. My only objection is that the current trend in environmental populism is that it elevates the environment over humanity. For instance, many people are advocating for population control and other things in the name of environmentalism. This is absurd. God wants to bring people into a relationship with Himself. I believe these environmental extremists are in opposition to God's will.

We should take care of what we mean by 'environmentalism' before we insult/attack each other.

 

[archer75]

Just to clarify, I am very much for taking care of the environment. My only objection is that the current trend in environmental populism is that it elevates the environment over humanity. For instance, many people are advocating for population control and other things in the name of environmentalism. This is absurd. God wants to bring people into a relationship with Himself. I believe these environmental extremists are in opposition to God's will.

We should take care of what we mean by 'environmentalism' before we insult/attack each other.

Agreed, we should.

One issue here is that the "anti-environmental" activities that poison adults and children largely go on behind the scenes. There is no vocal "movement" in support of those things, because no one would support them and they have been able to go on without a lot of oversight for a long time. The movement in support of them is usually cast in terms of "business."

So the environmental movement can look shrill or out of proportion, but I think that's because it's vocal and talks about things that go on largely unseen, so it can appear to be made up of noisy troublemakers.

 

[dlamberth]

Just to clarify, I am very much for taking care of the environment. My only objection is that the current trend in environmental populism is that it elevates the environment over humanity. For instance, many people are advocating for population control and other things in the name of environmentalism. This is absurd. God wants to bring people into a relationship with Himself. I believe these environmental extremists are in opposition to God's will.

You and I have a complete difference of opinion on what it means to take care of humanity. Not for an instant do I believe that over population of the earth is good for humanity. On every level human beings suffer the consequences from the Earth itself being encumbered with too many people desecrating her.

Furthermore, elevating the environment over humanity is the one thing that will save humanity from self-destruction. And contrary to you, I believe those environmental extremists are in total alignment with God's will.