Emotional Sabine Hossenfelder talks about her experiences in academia.

[sjastro]

Sabine's videos have been used to support various opinions on this site, in this video she talks about how academia has treated her.
This inside account holds far more water than the opinionated and ignorant academic bashing which goes on here.

In private industry as opposed to academia my experiences involve having had my reports criticized by lawyers and bean counters (accountants) for being 'too direct' which could lead to law suits and profit loss, while at the same time being subjected to severe pressure to solve problems with minimal financial support from senior management at a director level.

Here is Sabine's story.

 

[SelfSim]

Hmm .. a rebel without a cause(?) ..

.. (Apart from the underestimation of the relevance of Indefinite causal Structures that is, of course!)

 

[AlexB23]

Sabine's videos have been used to support various opinions on this site, in this video she talks about how academia has treated her.
This inside account holds far more water than the opinionated and ignorant academic bashing which goes on here.

In private industry as opposed to academia my experiences involve having had my reports criticized by lawyers and bean counters (accountants) for being 'too direct' which could lead to law suits and profit loss, while at the same time being subjected to severe pressure to solve problems with minimal financial support from senior management at a director level.

Here is Sabine's story.

It is sad how academia did not treat women with respect at her time. I do not know what to say, other than our world is not following Luke 6:31, which says "treat others the way you want to be treated".


This is a summary of the video for those who do not have 14 minutes:

Sabine Hossenfelder, a theoretical physicist, shares her journey from pursuing a career in academia to becoming a YouTuber. She explains that her initial expectation of being a physicist was influenced by biographies of scientists, which portrayed them as thinkers and tinkerers having respectful debates. However, she soon realized that the reality was quite different.

Hossenfelder grew up in a non-academic family and developed an interest in science and mathematics during her school years. When she joined the university, she finally met like-minded individuals who shared her passion for these subjects. Despite enjoying her time at the university, she struggled financially and faced gender discrimination while trying to secure a job after completing her master's degree.

She reveals that despite excelling academically, she wasn't offered a position due to her gender. Instead, she was advised to apply for a scholarship specifically designed for women in the natural sciences. Although she secured the scholarship, she lacked the benefits associated with regular employment such as health insurance and pension contributions. During her tenure, she declined requests to assist a senior faculty member with textbook writing, leading to conflicts with the department head. Eventually, she was pushed out of his office following a disagreement.

These experiences led Hossenfelder to question the priorities of academic institutions. According to her, the focus shifted towards generating revenue instead of discovering knowledge. Researchers face immense pressure to obtain grants, resulting in a system where students and postdoctoral fellows become 'paper producers'. These individuals contribute to producing research papers for the principal investigator (PI) who holds the grant, enabling the PI to seek further grants. This cycle results in a high turnover rate among junior researchers and prioritizes quantity over quality.

Eventually, Hossenfelder lost faith in the field of fundamental physics, believing that most research conducted was not grounded in solid scientific principles. After multiple relocations, marrying, and raising two children, she decided to return to Germany and sought shorter-term research opportunities closer to home. While conducting this work, she admittedly compromised her values to adhere to conventional methods to secure funds. Following a series of breakdowns and deteriorating mental health, she resolved to pursue her desired areas of research regardless of potential funding challenges. Unfortunately, her application for a grant focused on these areas was rejected, ultimately leading her to create content on YouTube discussing both her love and frustration with science.

 

[sjastro]

It is sad how academia did not treat women with respect at her time. I do not know what to say, other than our world is not following Luke 6:31, which says "treat others the way you want to be treated".

I have never heard of women's only scholarships and their existence seems to imply women are getting a raw deal in finding work in academia and the scholarship comes across as a form of welfare benefit.

 

[AlexB23]

I have never heard of women's only scholarships and their existence seems to imply women are getting a raw deal in finding work in academia and the scholarship comes across as a form of welfare benefit.

Hmm. I am not sure if that is the solution, either. Tuition and fees should be lowered for everyone, equally.

 

[AV1611VET]

From Wikipedia:

Hossenfelder remained in Germany until 2004 as a postdoctoral researcher at the GSI Helmholtz Centre for Heavy Ion Research in Darmstadt. She was subsequently employed as a postdoctoral research fellow at the University of Arizona, Tucson, University of California, Santa Barbara, and later at the Perimeter Institute in Waterloo, Canada. In 2009, she became an assistant professor at the Nordic Institute for Theoretical Physics in Sweden. Between 2015 and 2023, she was employed at the Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Studies,[citation needed] followed by a post at Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich's Center for Mathematical Philosophy.

SOURCE

Just wondering, do scientists move around from job to job like this?

If so, who would want to hire someone who isn't going to stay?

My wife was a secretary in a Fortune 100 company, and worked there for almost 45 years before retiring.

 

[AV1611VET]

It is sad how academia did not treat women with respect at her time.

I grew up in the Leave It To Beaver era.

Men were men and women were women.

I had "It's a man's world" drummed into me.

My mom never had a driver's license.

Then came women's lib, equal opportunity, reverse discrimination, NOW, and all this other balogna.

And while I hold two women up in high esteem (Rosa Parks & Frances Kelsey), I've seen my share of women arcing & sparking and singing songs like "Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better" and "I Am Woman" and other junk.

I love the story of the man who held a door open for a woman, and she stopped and refused to go in, calling him a "male chauvinist."

To which he replied, "I'm not holding the door because you're a woman. I'm holding the door because I'm a man."

My older sister got into the women's lib movement as a teenager, and it was all I could do to put up with her nonsense.

 

[AlexB23]

I grew up in the Leave It To Beaver era.

Men were men and women were women.

I had "It's a man's world" drummed into me.

My mom never had a driver's license.

Then came women's lib, equal opportunity, reverse discrimination, NOW, and all this other balogna.

And while I hold two women up in high esteem (Rosa Parks & Frances Kelsey), I've seen my share of women arcing & sparking and singing songs like "Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better" and "I Am Woman" and other junk.

I love the story of the man who held a door open for a woman, and she stopped and refused to go in, calling him a "male chauvinist."

To which he replied, "I'm not holding the door because you're a woman. I'm holding the door because I'm a man."

My older sister got into the women's lib movement as a teenager, and it was all I could do to put up with her nonsense.

I hold Rosa Parks in high esteem. But yeah, some women can be rude, just as some men can be. But, egalitarian beliefs are important. But as soon as women is lifted above men, or men above women, then issues arise, when both should be equal.

Look at Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

 

[durangodawood]

From Wikipedia:

Hossenfelder remained in Germany until 2004 as a postdoctoral researcher at the GSI Helmholtz Centre for Heavy Ion Research in Darmstadt. She was subsequently employed as a postdoctoral research fellow at the University of Arizona, Tucson, University of California, Santa Barbara, and later at the Perimeter Institute in Waterloo, Canada. In 2009, she became an assistant professor at the Nordic Institute for Theoretical Physics in Sweden. Between 2015 and 2023, she was employed at the Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Studies,[citation needed] followed by a post at Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich's Center for Mathematical Philosophy.

SOURCE

Just wondering, do scientists move around from job to job like this?

If so, who would want to hire someone who isn't going to stay?

My wife was a secretary in a Fortune 100 company, and worked there for almost 45 years before retiring.

Post docs positions seem to be project based, often. And as professors, many university departments are too small to allow for active channels of professional advancement, and so you advance by taking opportunities that crop up in other institutions. Thats what I observe from the outside anyway.

 

[AV1611VET]

Post docs positions seem to be project based, often. And as professors, many university departments are too small to allow for active channels of professional advancement, and so you advance by taking opportunities that crop up in other institutions. Thats what I observe from the outside anyway.

Ya -- but -- c'mon.

Assistant professor at the Nordic Institute for Theoretical Physics in Sweden?

That sounds pretty prestigious to me.

 

[durangodawood]

Ya -- but -- c'mon.

Assistant professor at the Nordic Institute for Theoretical Physics in Sweden?

That sounds pretty prestigious to me.

I know what you mean. But the title doesnt always tell the whole story. Ive had some professor friends and there seems to be a fair amount of shuffling around, at least in the first half of careers.

 

[AV1611VET]

I know what you mean. But the title doesnt always tell the whole story. Ive had some professor friends and there seems to be a fair amount of shuffling around, at least in the first half of careers.

We had one poster here who ... well ... I'll let him tell it:

I helped BUILD the LHC, AV. Now I'm not a particle physics expert by a long shot, but the fact you're nitpicking over a kids article means I can at least address the basics.

That's pretty impressive, if you ask me.

 

[essentialsaltes]

From Wikipedia:

Hossenfelder remained in Germany until 2004 as a postdoctoral researcher at the GSI Helmholtz Centre for Heavy Ion Research in Darmstadt. She was subsequently employed as a postdoctoral research fellow at the University of Arizona, Tucson, University of California, Santa Barbara, and later at the Perimeter Institute in Waterloo, Canada. In 2009, she became an assistant professor at the Nordic Institute for Theoretical Physics in Sweden. Between 2015 and 2023, she was employed at the Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Studies,[citation needed] followed by a post at Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich's Center for Mathematical Philosophy.

SOURCE

Just wondering, do scientists move around from job to job like this?

I think many academics in all fields do, at least in the earliest stages. Postdocs are often kind of an audition for a faculty position. If one isn't offered to you, you have to go somewhere else.

Assistant professor is often code for "I teach all the undergrads while the full professors carry out their research."

 

[sfs]

Just wondering, do scientists move around from job to job like this?

Quite often, yet. Not just scientists, but academics in general, at least in the US system that I'm familiar with.

If so, who would want to hire someone who isn't going to stay?

They're often not welcome to stay. Postdocs are usually short-term positions (roughly three years), from which one can apply for faculty jobs, usually at a different institution. Assistant professor is a faculty position, traditionally the first step towards tenure. If you don't get tenure at that institution (or know you're not going to), then you have to move on to somewhere else. If you fall off the tenure track entirely, then you have to string together short-term or adjunct positions, which are typically poorly paid and have low job security. And given the shrinking number of faculty positions, there are a lot of researchers in those kind of situations. Again, this is in the US -- I don't know how it is in Europe.

I'm extremely fortunate to have found long-term employment as a staff scientist; such positions are rare in academia.

 

[rambot]

I have never heard of women's only scholarships and their existence seems to imply women are getting a raw deal in finding work in academia and the scholarship comes across as a form of welfare benefit.

Really? Scholarships are ALMOST always designed for certain and specific populations.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm extremely fortunate to have found long-term employment as a staff scientist; such positions are rare in academia.

Good for you!

 

[sjastro]

Really? Scholarships are ALMOST always designed for certain and specific populations.

Did you watch the video?
In case you didn't Sabine was offered work at the Institute of Physics on condition she applied for a women's only scholarship.
Since her income came from the scholarship, she was not entitled to employee benefits as she was not technically employed by the Institute.

The irony is if there was no women's only scholarship which is designed to encourage women to pursue studies in a given field, there would not have been the blatant discrimination shown by the Institute.

 

[rambot]

Did you watch the video?
In case you didn't Sabine was offered work at the Institute of Physics on condition she applied for a women's only scholarship.
Since her income came from the scholarship, she was not entitled to employee benefits as she was not technically employed by the Institute.

That is pretty lame of the IOP to do that as a cost saving measure. I would wager they have tried to pull that on a few people before....

The irony is if there was no women's only scholarship which is designed to encourage women to pursue studies in a given field, there would not have been the blatant discrimination shown by the Institute.

I don't think that's exactly right either though. I'm not sure it being a "single gender" scholarship actually is an important point to this story. I'm sure they have tried that with other scientists too. And they'd be able to make the same argument ("you took the scholarship money so we don't have to pay for your health insurance") against any gender....

 

[SelfSim]

I don't think that's exactly right either though. I'm not sure it being a "single gender" scholarship actually is an important point to this story. I'm sure they have tried that with other scientists too. And they'd be able to make the same argument ("you took the scholarship money so we don't have to pay for your health insurance") against any gender....

I think I'm with you on this one .. the discrimination is endemic and not necessarily just confined to women(?)

Eg: @sjastro also described the lack of financial support he had in his role, in order to achieve unrealistic expected results .. I've also experienced similar situations. People (in general) always focus on singular, easily notable charateristics and discard all the others when their own backs are up against a brick wall.

PS: Mind you, the business cost of paid Maternity leave (etc} for women (and rebellion against the principle of it) is often kicking around in the minds of some alpha-male managers I've encountered in my time as well. (Especially in the topic of who pays for health insurance).

 

[sjastro]

That is pretty lame of the IOP to do that as a cost saving measure. I would wager they have tried to pull that on a few people before....

If you are contracted you are fair game.
I've known of contract engineers who ended up working on projects lasting for years yet were never offered permanent positions as the company refused to pay for benefits such as holiday pay and sick leave.

I don't think that's exactly right either though. I'm not sure it being a "single gender" scholarship actually is an important point to this story. I'm sure they have tried that with other scientists too. And they'd be able to make the same argument ("you took the scholarship money so we don't have to pay for your health insurance") against any gender....

I can only go by what stated in the video the men were offered the jobs but Sabine was forced to apply for a scholarship.