Does Effectual Grace Make Us Automatons?

JM

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Don Fortner used this analogy many years ago.

"Imagine that a toddler willfully disobeys their parent by running into the street into oncoming traffic. Which parent is more loving: 1) the parent who runs into the street at the risk of their life to scoop up their child to make certain they were safe, REGARDLESS of the child's will at the time? or 2) the parent who sits at the curb calling out to the child, and won't lift a finger to save the child unless he/she first gives them permission?"

Read the article below.

Does Effectual Grace Make Us Automatons? | Monergism
 

Jonaitis

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Don Fortner used this analogy many years ago.

"Imagine that a toddler willfully disobeys their parent by running into the street into oncoming traffic. Which parent is more loving: 1) the parent who runs into the street at the risk of their life to scoop up their child to make certain they were safe, REGARDLESS of the child's will at the time? or 2) the parent who sits at the curb calling out to the child, and won't lift a finger to save the child unless he/she first gives them permission?"

Read the article below.

Does Effectual Grace Make Us Automatons? | Monergism
I know that it is an analogy, but the parent's actions, in this case, only describes the elect.
 
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Brother-Mike

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Interesting… thanks for posting.

I know the stated example wasn’t really about love per se, but as a metaphor for the different forms of love, I would however suggest changing the second case (i.e. the lazy parent) to “2) the parent who prevents the child from playing outside in the first place”.

i.e. the dichotomy that I see play out again and again seems to be between these two options: love-with-freedom versus love-preventing-freedom. Certainly Jordan Peterson et al have spoken at length about the dangers of excess in the latter, “Over-Protective Mother“ case.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I know that it is an analogy, but the parent's actions, in this case, only describes the elect.
I assume you mean to refer to the notion of double-predestination, then, where God predestines both the salvation of the elect, and the ultimate condemnation of the reprobate?
 
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The Righterzpen

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Interesting… thanks for posting.

I know the stated example wasn’t really about love per se, but as a metaphor for the different forms of love, I would however suggest changing the second case (i.e. the lazy parent) to “2) the parent who prevents the child from playing outside in the first place”.

i.e. the dichotomy that I see play out again and again seems to be between these two options: love-with-freedom versus love-preventing-freedom. Certainly Jordan Peterson et al have spoken at length about the dangers of excess in the latter, “Over-Protective Mother“ case.
Seems to me that "love that prevents freedom" would only be true if God prevented the elect from sinning; and we all know that doesn't happen. People of all sorts of magnitudes of sin come to genuine redemption.

The restraint (repentance of sin) that takes place in the "independent volition" of the believer is the result of being spiritually raised to life. When God "cuts the lights on" one can't help but see.

I use the term "independent volition" because "free will" is a loaded term. A "free will" would actually only qualify of one who's not subject to the corruption of the fall, nor encumbered by their own sin. Of which the only human being that ever possessed a truly free will was Jesus Christ.

Adam was inherently subject to the potential to be corrupted because he did not possess the nature of God. He was only created in God's image. He was not "incarnate".

So yes, all sorts of entities still and always have possessed freedom of decision making process. My cat has an independent volition, which she exercises every time I tell her not to do something and she does it anyways. LOL

Now the amount of sentience an entity possess is another caveat to this. My cat is not subject to an eternity in the Lake of Fire for her disobedience to me. Whereas unregenerate humans and fallen angels are.

God by nature of what He is though (omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent; as well as immortal and eternal) doesn't need to micromanage the cosmos because He is capable of working "in real time" as that relates to the independent decisions made by other entities.

Thus those other entities are still fully responsible for their choices. This why in regards to humans; it's "the wages of sin" that "earn" them their proportion of punishment. Humans are different than fallen angels in that regard; because we are made in God's image; we still retain the ability to make morally right choices even outside of redemption. But because angels aren't part of the redemption program; when they fall, they lose all capacity for moral good. This is why Jesus says that Satan was a liar and murderer from the beginning and there is no good thing in him.

So yes, the capacity for independent choice still exists (and always has existed) in this cosmos.
 
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