Do We Begin With Understanding Or Not?

[TheConcierge]

(*This post was moved from the Christian Apologetics forum by me, through request of moderator Hentenza.)

There is a thing that Christians say, which goes something like, "Even a child understands the truth that is Jesus Christ."

which, I think, paraphrases a Bible verse that I can't seem to locate at the moment (feel free to tell me what this is, and I'll edit this post with the information).

This phrase seems to assume that children understand and believe in God/Jesus Christ from the beginning. I don't think this is true.

We are born without understanding, or any predisposition to the idea that God exists, and our parents/elders teach us what to believe. After all, if we were all born with the natural 'knowing' that God exists, why would there be any religions other than one?

Therefore, so far as I understand, we don't seem to be meant to worship any deity but only do so for various reasons (pick one: because we'd otherwise feel alone, etc., etc.) It also seems that teaching children to worship this or that deity, Christianity being the main example as that is my upbringing, rather than teaching that they should decide for themselves through logic seems rather like....brainwashing.

_*_*_*____I know I'm on a Christian forum, -but- since I am a Christian-turning-skeptic ( I identify myself as agnostic on here), I thank you to please prove your point with some means OTHER THAN THE BIBLE.

After all, if I do not believe the overall idea that the Bible is, in fact, the word of a God, you can not logically use it to prove a point. It would be similar to showing me a painting which I do not believe, through various means, to be a work of Van Gogh, and attempting to teach me the painting techniques of Van Gogh through it. If you still attempt to use the Bible as your main argument, I'll know you have either not read all the way through my post or you don't care; in either case, I shall ignore your post.

Please do not make personal attacks, including but not limited to asking me why I don't believe the Bible exists, telling me I need to accept Jesus Christ as my savior, or telling me I shall go to hell, or acting holier-than-thou through supposed pity. Stick to the topic at hand - it is a valid debate, and you would not comment on someone's religious views in an actual debate, now would you? ______*_*_*_____

 

[AV1611VET]

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There is a thing that Christians say, which goes something like, "Even a child understands the truth that is Jesus Christ."

which, I think, paraphrases a Bible verse that I can't seem to locate at the moment (feel free to tell me what this is, and I'll edit this post with the information).

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[theVirginian]

It also seems that teaching children to worship this or that deity, Christianity being the main example as that is my upbringing, rather than teaching that they should decide for themselves through logic seems rather like....brainwashing.

Keeping in mind that at some point my kids would have to choose for themselves, for me to allow them to bumble through life, all the time me knowing that the Christian God exists but me keeping mum, would be criminal.

 

[TheConcierge]

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

That might be it. Thanks!

Keeping in mind that at some point my kids would have to choose for themselves, for me to allow them to bumble through life, all the time me knowing that the Christian God exists but me keeping mum, would be criminal.

-Would- it though? Wouldn't it be better to start from as neutral a posistion as possible and let them really decide for themselves?

What's more, how would you compare teaching only Christianity to your children as compared to, let's say, a Muslim teaching his child only about the religion of Islam?

Do you view him as the criminal for not teaching an innocent child your view of God? Should he view you as a criminal for not teaching your innocent child about his view of God? Or are you both doing wrong for causing your children's minds to see only one view from the beginning?

 

[synger]

I would not think the Muslim a criminal for teaching his child his beliefs. I would consider him a delinquent parent if he did not.

We are called as parents to help equip our children to understand and make choices in the world. Whatever world view we have, we have one, and it helps us make sense of our culture, our family, our society, our time in history, and our relationship with God (if any).

For example, my faith informs a huge portion of how I live my life: how I see other people, how I think God has called me to serve Him and help others, how I work, how I deal with friends and family, how I spend my money, how I vote, etc. I think it's important for my daughter to understand my faith, to question me about it, and to see how it impacts my life.

As a Lutheran, I also believe that God has given her the gift of faith as well. As such, I take my admonition to teach her His ways very seriously. I know that as she gets older she will encounter other beliefs. She already has, in fact. She has Sikh students in her school and we've answered her questions about their beliefs. She's been to the nature-centered Pagan wedding of our best friend's son and we've answered her questions about their beliefs, too. She's sure to meet many more non-Christians in her life, and she will need to know how to dialogue respectfully with them, and how to shape her own religious decisions. We are trying to give her the tools to do so.

Are we "stacking the deck" toward Christianity? I certainly hope and pray so! *grins* If we didn't think it was the truth, we wouldn't follow it. But we also know that there are many children who are raised Christian who leave the faith... and many who were raised without any faith or a different faith who find Christ as adults.

Our job is not to indoctrinate her so strongly that she never questions. That not only is almost impossible to do, but it won't work. Children question. Parents and experience teach. That's how it works. Both my husband and myself remember our times of questioning our faith, and we know that our daughter will go through a similar time.

I pray that by God's grace she will find her faith strengthened in the questioning, and not destroyed. We can do only so much as parents -- attend church regularly, have family devotions, teach her the catechism that outlines our faith. The rest is up to God.

He's a big God. He can take some doubts and questions without breaking. He's been doing so for millennia. *grins*

 

[TheConcierge]

I would not think the Muslim a criminal for teaching his child his beliefs. I would consider him a delinquent parent if he did not.

So you, at least as an individual, concede that people have the right, the duty, to teach their children the religion they believe in, no matter what that religion may be.

We are called as parents to help equip our children to understand and make choices in the world. Whatever world view we have, we have one, and it helps us make sense of our culture, our family, our society, our time in history, and our relationship with God (if any).

So any parent, of any religion, is called to equip their children with the knowledge to understand. Any world view helps to make sense of the life we live and the things that happen in it.

Are we "stacking the deck" toward Christianity? I certainly hope and pray so! *grins*

Why would you hope that? If you just told me that every parents has the right to "stack the deck" in favor of their religion with their children, can you not imagine the overall pain that this causes in the long run, the situation that this creates?

If everyone (or most) are attempting to stack the deck in their religion of choice, what gives anyone else (everyone but A, A + everyone but B, B+A+everyone but C) the right to say to the individual that they are wrong?

1.) If everyone is right in each religion: There is a God that can be viewed many different ways, and there are many paths to salvation.

2.) If only a certain group is right in a religion: Everyone else is wrong, has been taught as children wrongly, has most likely been wrong back through several generations. Not only are all of these people wrong - they are going to suffer for it besides! Surely, this situation is not possible.

3.) If everyone is wrong in each religion: Everyone has been wasting much time convincing the other to try -their- proven blindfold on, and religion is not so much a matter of belief based on truth but belief based on a vague idea in which this one happens to sound better (or has been taught to you to sound better - "stacking the deck") than the others.

 

[synger]

It causes the same situation, the same pain, that any child learns upon leaving the home and family they know to face a world that has a plethora of very different people, with very different ideas and beliefs. It is no different than a child of a staunch Republican home going to a liberal college and being challenged in her political ideas for the first time. There is a reason why "religion and politics" are the so-called "forbidden topics" in polite conversations... because they are sure to start a disagreement. If you have five people in the room, there will be at least six different opinions. This can be true even if they are Christians of the same denomination.

Even for those who are taught there there is no god, they will be challenged in that assumption when they are in the marketplace of ideas. It doesn't matter what faith or belief a child is raised with... unless everyone they encounter has that same belief, they will be challenged.

I think that is why countries where people do not travel much, but stay in or near where they grew up, tend to have more homogeneous belief systems. And those where people are more mobile, and have more access to worldwide communications, have less homogeneous belief systems. They are exposed to questions and ideas that they might not have encountered at home.

 

[ebia]

(*This post was moved from the Christian Apologetics forum by me, through request of moderator Hentenza.)

There is a thing that Christians say, which goes something like, "Even a child understands the truth that is Jesus Christ."

which, I think, paraphrases a Bible verse that I can't seem to locate at the moment (feel free to tell me what this is, and I'll edit this post with the information).

This phrase seems to assume that children understand and believe in God/Jesus Christ from the beginning. I don't think this is true.

We are born without understanding, or any predisposition to the idea that God exists, and our parents/elders teach us what to believe. After all, if we were all born with the natural 'knowing' that God exists, why would there be any religions other than one?

Depens what one means by 'understanding'.

A healthy newborn baby begins building relationship with mum almost immediately. Their eyes are setup with a focal length just right to make eye contact during breast feeding and so forth. A relationship forms long before the baby can conceptualise or articulate anything about that relationship. But that relationship needs to be continually worked out and maintained - by both parties - if each is to come to know the other more fully.

Likewise with a newborn and God - if the relationship isn't given space to grow appropriately it will die. If God is excluded from home life then the child will grow away from God until by the time they can conceptualise anything that relationship is forgotten entirely. Of if there is a distorted view of the divine in family life that's what the child will grow into, just as in anything else.

Therefore, so far as I understand, we don't seem to be meant to worship any deity but only do so for various reasons (pick one: because we'd otherwise feel alone, etc., etc.) It also seems that teaching children to worship this or that deity, Christianity being the main example as that is my upbringing, rather than teaching that they should decide for themselves through logic seems rather like....brainwashing.

It's impossible to bring up children with no worldview and let them decide for themselves. There is no neutral standpoint - nor should there be. Bringing up children without relationship to the divine is as much imposing on them a particular view as anything else.

 

[Johnnz]

I find that most young children have a 'god consciousness'. Around 8-10 that begins to change as parental and other influences take over. Adolescents go though a questioning stage as they develop their own understanding of life. So, understanding is important, but in different ways at different ages.

John
NZ