Arsenios

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A really minor point here for completeness since your post might be linked to later from other threads. Should "πορευθεντες" be "going" rather than "go ye"?

Thank-you - I missed it... Thought it was a wierd active imperative...
πορευθεντες is an aorist middle/passive participle

So it carries the sense of "Having gone forth accordingly..."

And it seems to have other attached implicatures in the Greek that no English word has...
The oun, eg 'accordingly', leaves the clue to keep the trail alive...

So I will, thanks to you, go back and patch up my damage!

Your threatened later linkage from other threads is disturbingly flattering...

Getting over that disturbance is now my immediate concern, you dog! :)

So... Thank-you for your kind words -

The Greek is normally very precise...

So the meaning of the 'ouv' (accordingly) is the statement immediately prior to the verb it modifies, eg "All power (exousia) is given unto Me in heaven and upon earth." And His instructions to them begins with: AFTER you have gone forth ACCORDING TO (ouv) all the power given to Me in heaven and upon earth, THEN (still in that exousia) disciple all the peoples (of the earth)... He is sending His Disciples out upon the earth in His Own exousia, or as we say in a sacred manner: "In Thy Holy Name...", for the purpose of discipling the Nations...

The language is precise...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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I have looked at it liked this: The command is to make disciples.
Baptizing them and then teaching them Christ's commands are how we disciple
How do we know what these commands ALL are?

Arsenios
 
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ByTheSpirit

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How do we know what these commands ALL are?

Arsenios

I actually only see one "command" in the NT as belonging to Jesus and all the other "commands" are really just manifestations of what obeying the one command should look like.

That one command is to love one another. Loving one another shows we love God and fulfills all the Law, because it does no wrong to another.

Now if you want to know should we be teaching people how to love others, then yes we can use examples in scripture about marital relationships, family, church gatherings, interactions, etc as teaching points. But again, Jesus came to fulfill and really simplify our walk with God.

1 command: love one another

It has several manifestations though :)
 
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Arsenios

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I actually only see one "command" in the NT as belonging to Jesus and all the other "commands" are really just manifestations of what obeying the one command should look like.

That one command is to love one another. Loving one another shows we love God and fulfills all the Law, because it does no wrong to another.

Now if you want to know should we be teaching people how to love others, then yes we can use examples in scripture about marital relationships, family, church gatherings, interactions, etc as teaching points. But again, Jesus came to fulfill and really simplify our walk with God.

1 command: love one another

It has several manifestations though :)
I agree with this assessment, that Love is the New Commanadment, and that all the others must be saturated in this One... But Christ's words here specify ALL Commandments... And 'one' is not 'all'...

And look at what Christ commands His Apostles to actually DO with these commandments which He GAVE to them:

διδασκοντες αυτους τηρειν...
instructing them to observe...

Now remember, the very next word is ALL
And that term glossed as "to observe" is an ongoing Greek infinitive...
Here is some of its meaning:

to attend to carefully, take care of
  1. to guard
  2. metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
  3. to observe
  4. to reserve: to undergo something
Here is Strong's definition:
to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon;
and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping;
and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus),
that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command);
by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain);
by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried):
- hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch.

So this is a very big little word, tyrein...

Before the followers of Christ were first called Christians in Antioch,
they were called the People of the Way, and the Way IS Christ...
What was this Way that IS Christ? It was a whole way of being in the
world that was not OF the world... It was a daily life of and in the Faith which Christ gave to His Discipled, and which they in turn discipled to their disciiples.
It was intensive and pervasive, having the times of the prayers each day
specified as the Services of the Hours, and the Midnight office, and the
Service of Vespers each evening, and that of Matins, or Orthros, each
morning... The Hours were prayed at the 1st Hour, the 3rd Hour, the
6th Hour and the 9th Hour... And not only each day, but each week and
each month and each year were laid out in the liturgical cycle of the Services.

And these were meticulously kept, which is what that big little word tyrein
means, and were kept by ALL the Apostolic Churches of the first thousand
years of this faith... Even Paul's Churches... And in the main, across two
thousand years, they are still being kept in the Apostolic Churches, partially
in the local parishes, fully in many of the monasteries... This is what Christ
instructed His Apostles to disciple in all the Nations...

This is, in large part, and to the degree that one is able to embrace it, what
is meant by the praxis, the practice, the discipling, of the Body of Christ for
Her members of that Body... It is a massive, all-in, consecration of one's entire
life to the pursuit of a total relationship with God, while still functioning to some
degree in the world...

That is why Paul had to remind his flock that Salvation is by Grace, and not by
works, "lest any should boast"... The danger of boasting is apparent from the
extensive quantity of the works entailed by the praxis of the Faith of Christ...
Exhaustion in labors, prayer, fasting, all night vigils, alms-giving, sleeplessness,
and on and on, all these might make one think Salvation is a reward for all the
labors...

It is not...

And guidance is needed every step of the process, because the way is easily
strayed from, so that those who have walked the narrow and straited way
guide those who are walking it for their first time, (or 7th or 20th mind you!)
The prayers of a righteous man avail much... Paul was one such, a Father to
his Faithful... The mortification of the flesh unto deification by God in the Marriage
of the Lamb is a prolonged crucifixion of the Old Man on the part of the person
entered into in the Mystery of Baptism, for we are Baptized into Christ's Death,
that we find His Life...

When God moves with the Gift, it does not take long at all...

The idea is total saturation in Christ...
Total immersion in Christ's Holy Way of being in the world...

Enough for now...

Arsenios
 
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Hidden In Him

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Many in the west regard the Filling of Cornelius and his party with the Holy Spirit as a "Spirit Baptism"... This view has no historical witness in the historical Church... We regard it as the means that God employed, by which Peter changed his thinking about baptizing Gentiles... Once he got it, he immediately baptized Cornelius and his party... It was the "second Pentecost" for the Gentiles...

The Holy Spirit coming upon one is not the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but is Divine visitation... It happened with Elizabeth and the Blessed Virgin, and is well attested in the OT...

Greetings Arsenios. Just getting back to this thread this morning. I'm quite frankly not all that familiar with Eastern Orthodox teachings, though I am interested to learn. Think you could explain in the simplest terms what they define the Baptism in the Holy Spirit to be? And what would you be referring to by the term "second Pentecost for the Gentiles"?
He was already blinded in his Pharisitical Judgementalism, so God blinded him properly, and upon Ananias' laying his hands upon him 'scales' came out from his eyes... Suggesting that he was restored to more than mere physical visual acuity... :)

Thanks for using the word "judgmentalism." So far as I can tell, it is not considered an actual word yet, but I'm tempted to use it all the time myself. :oldthumbsup:
Are you referring to the three Apostles seeing Christ coming in Power in their vision on Mt. Tabor?

No, although I have heard it preached that this whole NT passage draws strong parallels to the Festival of Booths.
I am unfamiliar with these lines of understanding...

That's probably because it is theology I teach, but not that I have read anywhere else. It would be a long teaching to fully present the case, but I believe the Festivals prophetically set the true intended pattern. Granted, I'm sure you would balk at that, being a man strongly invested in tradition. I'm just telling what I believe personally.
That is how Christ evangellized Ethiopia...

Agreed.
And that is exactly why they turned East to the Church at Antioch...

We do that complete correction...

I serve with many of them...

I'd be interested to hear, if you had time and space to share. :oldthumbsup: (Note: If this is addressed partially in your Post #24, then I have now already read it.)

Thanks for your replies. Again, I find you enjoyable to read.
 
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Before the followers of Christ were first called Christians in Antioch, they were called the People of the Way, and the Way IS Christ...
What was this Way that IS Christ?...
It was intensive and pervasive, having the times of the prayers each day
specified as the Services of the Hours, and the Midnight office, and the
Service of Vespers each evening, and that of Matins, or Orthros, each
morning... The Hours were prayed at the 1st Hour, the 3rd Hour, the
6th Hour and the 9th Hour... And not only each day, but each week and
each month and each year were laid out in the liturgical cycle of the Services.

Arsenios, let me engage you in this a little bit. I do know the scriptural support behind keeping the hours prayer, and I feel several of these practices you list above are excellent observances to keep.

However I have a few reservations:
1. Such a set liturgy wouldn't seem to leave room for being individually led by the Spirit of God, such as when He were leading you to go witness to someone instead of observing an hour of prayer, or leading you to instead go and take a look at a particular passage while in prayer because there was something in it He wanted to show you.
2. Do you feel the Essenes were the primary religious faction being refuted in the Book of Colossians? I ask this because if you did, strict adherence to a religious and liturgical calendar would I believe be part of what Paul argued was threatening to bring the Colossians back under law (Colossians 2:8, Colossians 2:16-17).

Again, I ask these things with the utmost respect. I'm mostly simply curious to know what the Eastern Orthodox responses to such questions are.
 
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Arsenios

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Think you could explain in the simplest terms what the EOC's define the Baptism in the Holy Spirit to be?

We do not use that expression - We Baptize all the Nations into Christ in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit... Upon one's emergence from these regenerational waters, the now purified person is given the Seal of the Holy Spirit... He is then given his or her first Communion, and is now joined with the Living... ["And He shall judge the living and the dead, whose Kingdom shall have no end." And "Unless you eat My Flesh and drink My Blood, you have no life in you..."

This Seal of the Holy Spirit is done in Holy Oil, and is called Chrismation, and is the Christing of the Newly Illumined Baptizee... This is what the Jews did not have who were the Holy Ones of Israel prior to Christ... They were obviouusly NOT in the Body of Christ as members in their OT walk, because the Body of Christ did not yet exist, and it is Baptism BY the Body of Christ at the hands of the Servants of Christ, eg like Ananias who baptized Paul and gave him the Holy Spirit, that enters a person INTO the Body of Christ...

There is nothing more fundamental, in our understanding, that Baptism, except the repentance that leads to it, which cannot be repeated unto ANOTHER Baptism, as Paul notes... Heb 6:6 Holy Baptism IS entry INTO the Kingdom of Heaven, which is the Body of Christ on earth...

And what would you be referring to by the term "second Pentecost for the Gentiles"?

The first Pentecost was not for the Gentiles, but the Jews.

The second, with the Cornelius party, opened the inclusion of Gentiles to Baptism into Christ...
I do not recall the Tongues of Fire settling on the Apostles at Pentecost ever being termed a Baptism of the Holy Spirit...

Thanks for using the word "judgmentalism." So far as I can tell, it is not considered an actual word yet, but I'm tempted to use it all the time myself. :oldthumbsup:

I craft words to express understanding...

No, although I have heard it preached that this whole NT passage draws strong parallels to the Festival of Booths.

There is a strong Orthodox Tradition that sees the parallels between the Festivals of the Jews and their converesion into Christianity... I am not all that familiar with it, but remember: Christianity was at first a Jewish Sect that was very much at home in the Jewish Faith...

That's probably because it is theology I teach, but not that I have read anywhere else. It would be a long teaching to fully present the case, but I believe the Festivals prophetically set the true intended pattern. Granted, I'm sure you would balk at that, being a man strongly invested in tradition. I'm just telling what I believe personally.

Got it - I am but sharing what I believe impersonally, as I understand Church teachings through the praxis of the Faith...


I'd be interested to hear, if you had time and space to share. :oldthumbsup:
Peter Gilquist, a now reposed Priest in the EOC and one of the Campus Crusade for Christ originaters, wrote the story of their search after their great disappointment with mass conversions... It is titled: Becoming Orthodox: A Journey to the Ancient Christian Faith.
Becoming Orthodox

You can google him on YouTube...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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Arsenios, let me engage you in this a little bit. I do know the scriptural support behind keeping the hours prayer, and I feel several of these practices you list above are excellent observances to keep.

Well, EVERY Apostolic Church keeps them... And they are derived from the Jews, whose righteousness the Christians had to exceed...

It is important to keep in view that:
DISCIPLESHIP is a DISCIPLINE

However I have a few reservations:
1. Such a set liturgy wouldn't seem to leave room for being individually led by the Spirit of God, such as when He were leading you to go witness to someone instead of observing an hour of prayer, or leading you to instead go and take a look at a particular passage while in prayer because there was something in it He wanted to show you.

We do that kind of prophetic work, but outside the discipline of the Prayers of the Church...

2. Do you feel the Essenes were the primary religious faction being refuted in the Book of Colossians? I ask this because if you did, strict adherence to a religious and liturgical calendar would I believe be part of what Paul argued was threatening to bring the Colossians back under law (Colossians 2:8, Colossians 2:16-17).

Not that I know of...

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

We regard the keeping ot the times of the prayers as being discipled directly by Christ...

Col 2:12 Buried with Him in Baptism, wherein also ye are risen with Him through the Faith of the energizing of God, Who hath raised Him from the dead.

This is THE Faith of Christ...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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The 12 Apostles were discipled by Christ in the flesh...
Paul of Tarsus was NOT...
Paul was the exception, discipled in the Spirit...

After Christ was Baptized in the Jordan, He went into the wilderness and fasted 40 days and nights...
After Paul was Baptized by Ananias, he also went into the wilderness of Arabia... He kind of disappeared for awhile, showing up here and there, but he did not immediately go to Jerusalem to confer with the other Apostles. He proved the Faith of Christ in his own flesh first, and only then did he meet with Peter and John. This Faith of Christ is not proven in syllogisms... It is proven in one's flesh... If it is not proven there, then sylogisms will avail naught...

Christ's Great Commission commanded the Apostles to disciple all the peoples of the earth...
And Paul is something of an exception to this, for they did not disciple him...
Yet Paul, discipled by no man, discipled many men, and wrote half the NT...
We could say that he was the first Apostle to be discipled by the Risen and Ascended Christ...

The importance of BEING discipled BY someone who has himself or herself been discipled is a bedrock feature of the discipling of the Faith from generation to generation... And even Paul, after he had proven the Faith in himself, did then return to the Jews of good repute, to confirm his ministry, as Christ had commanded him by revelation to do:

Gal 2:2 And I went up by revelation,
and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles,
but privately to them which were of reputation,
lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

So that the means of Paul's discipleship cannot be raised as some kind of new norm, for the simple reason that he did not disciple His means of calling to those to whom He preached the Gospel. He discipled them face to face, or by epistle, of by emmisary... He did not tell them to kill Christians and be called by Christ... :)

So we need to be discipled by those who have successfully been discipled, and who have walked the talk that they are instructing us to walk... The Pauline exception, you see, proves the rule... We need to learn from those who have succeeded in attaining maturity in the Faith, of those who have been perfected in its praxis...

And THOSE guys are not all that easy to find!

Arsenios
 
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Hidden In Him

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We Baptize all the Nations into Christ in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit... Upon one's emergence from these regenerational waters, the now purified person is given the Seal of the Holy Spirit...

Let me ask you as one who is unfamiliar with EO practice. Do you look for supernatural confirmation of the Seal of the Holy Spirit having been given (prophesying and praying in tongues, as in the Book of Acts)? I ask because I do know that in Catholicism they observe Confirmation, but without expecting such outward signs of the Spirit's outpouring.
the Jews did not have who were the Holy Ones of Israel prior to Christ... They were obviouusly NOT in the Body of Christ as members in their OT walk, because the Body of Christ did not yet exist

Agreed. I believe it was precisely the manifest operations of the Spirit of God (i.e. the spiritual gifts) within all New Testament saints that made them one body in Christ. Do you agree or no?
The first Pentecost was not for the Gentiles, but the Jews.
The second, with the Cornelius party, opened the inclusion of Gentiles to Baptism into Christ...

I see. I thought you were somehow saying that the Gentiles alone experienced two Pentecosts.
Peter Gilquist, a now reposed Priest in the EOC and one of the Campus Crusade for Christ originaters, wrote the story of their search after their great disappointment with mass conversions... It is titled: Becoming Orthodox: A Journey to the Ancient Christian Faith.
Becoming Orthodox

Hadn't taken a look at this yet, but I will try to do so shortly. Thank you.
Well, EVERY Apostolic Church keeps them... And they are derived from the Jews, whose righteousness the Christians had to exceed...

It is important to keep in view that:
DISCIPLESHIP is a DISCIPLINE

We do that kind of prophetic work, but outside the discipline of the Prayers of the Church..

I LIKE this approach, Arsenios, I truly do. My only problem is still that I feel one should always remain open to the Holy Spirit's guidance, regardless of if this occasionally breaks with the spiritual disciplines or not, and without being judged as having somehow become disobedient to the Spirit of God when the opposite might actually be true.

I realize leaving such options open might threaten to break the normal discipline of the believer, but I suppose this would require one to be even more disciplined in returning to normal practice until instructed to do otherwise.
We regard the keeping ot the times of the prayers as being discipled directly by Christ...

Col 2:12 Buried with Him in Baptism, wherein also ye are risen with Him through the Faith of the energizing of God, Who hath raised Him from the dead.

I see. You mention the energizing of God. Would this not to be a continual energizing, rather than a formal one?
After Christ was Baptized in the Jordan, He went into the wilderness and fasted 40 days and nights...
After Paul was Baptized by Ananias, he also went into the wilderness of Arabia... He kind of disappeared for awhile, showing up here and there, but he did not immediately go to Jerusalem to confer with the other Apostles. He proved the Faith of Christ in his own flesh first, and only then did he meet with Peter and John. This Faith of Christ is not proven in syllogisms... It is proven in one's flesh... If it is not proven there, then sylogisms will avail naught...

Very good. You seem to be hinting at following Christ's example in fasting the flesh down after baptism. Correct? If so, to what extent does the EOC require fasting of the newly baptized?
The importance of BEING discipled BY someone who has himself or herself been discipled is a bedrock feature of the discipling of the Faith from generation to generation...

So we need to be discipled by those who have successfully been discipled, and who have walked the talk that they are instructing us to walk... The Pauline exception, you see, proves the rule... We need to learn from those who have succeeded in attaining maturity in the Faith, of those who have been perfected in its praxis...

I like these quotes as well. Nothing at all wrong with the principle, and to be preferred over the way I see things being done over here most of the time.
And THOSE guys are not all that easy to find!

Yes. The question becomes: Who's example does one follow? And there are not a lot who instill confidence, although there are a few here and there, for certain.

I know this again bucks your tradition, but this is all the more why I would say there may be a need once more for those who follow the example of Paul in being directly disciplined by the Lord Himself. I don't at all hold such a possibility to be out of the question, though you may disagree.
 
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Arsenios

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Let me ask you as one who is unfamiliar with EO practice. Do you look for supernatural confirmation of the Seal of the Holy Spirit having been given (prophesying and praying in tongues, as in the Book of Acts)? I ask because I do know that in Catholicism they observe Confirmation, but without expecting such outward signs of the Spirit's outpouring.

We do not - That constitutes the seeking of Gifts, not the sealing of the Holy Spirit within one's soul and thereby creating the New Creature in Christ ...

Agreed. I believe it was precisely the manifest operations of the Spirit of God (i.e. the spiritual gifts) within all New Testament saints that made them one body in Christ. Do you agree or no?

Those are but Signs - The union of all is Christ in Whom we all subsist...

I LIKE this approach, Arsenios, I truly do. My only problem is still that I feel one should always remain open to the Holy Spirit's guidance, regardless of if this occasionally breaks with the spiritual disciplines or not, and without being judged as having somehow become disobedient to the Spirit of God when the opposite might actually be true.

When/IF God comes during services of the Church, the Servant to whom He comes will know what more to do - eg It is not like we have to keep an eye out for Him... And it fairly commonly happens... And we do not see it as all that much of a confirmation... Can't call encountering God exactly routine, but it is not at all uncommon in our Services...

I realize leaving such options open might threaten to break the normal discipline of the believer, but I suppose this would require one to be even more disciplined in returning to normal practice until instructed to do otherwise.

They are not at odds...

I see. You mention the energizing of God. Would this not to be a continual energizing, rather than a formal one?

Different kinds, and sporadic...

Very good. You seem to be hinting at following Christ's example in fasting the flesh down after baptism. Correct? If so, to what extent does the EOC require fasting of the newly baptized?

The Church prescribes fasting throughout the year - Some 200 days, + or -, having dietary restraints...
The point of the comment is that repentance does not cease with entry into the Body of Christ, but instead normally increases...

I like these quotes as well. Nothing at all wrong with the principle, and to be preferred over the way I see things being done over here most of the time.

Yes. The question becomes: Who's example does one follow? And there are not a lot who instill confidence, although there are a few here and there, for certain.

If you are ready, one will come...

I know this again bucks your tradition, but this is all the more why I would say there may be a need once more for those who follow the example of Paul in being directly disciplined by the Lord Himself. I don't at all hold such a possibility to be out of the question, though you may disagree.

Disciplined??? Did you mean discipled? Very few of us are after the order of Melchisedek - God gave us the Church, the Body of Christ, and the Truth is found therein... These ones are direct appointed by God... There are always some around... You never know when you will meet one... Or where...

But there are many in this Faith who have attained its walk, and it is from them that we take example... And the litereature is for 2000 years and growing...

Arsenios
 
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The point of the comment is that repentance does not cease with entry into the Body of Christ, but instead normally increases...

I agree with this fully. :oldthumbsup:
Disciplined??? Did you mean discipled?

Yes, discipled. That was either a typo or a spell correct that went awry, and I didn't catch it. Sorry.
We do not - That constitutes the seeking of Gifts, not the sealing of the Holy Spirit within one's soul

Unless I am misunderstanding you, I believe here is where we would reach our impasse. I admit to the possibility of being wrong, only I think we are short-changing ourselves if we don't expect a full return to everything the church was experiencing during New Testament times. I do believe in seeking the gifts, only I also believe the NT saints were to some extent automatically receiving partial outpourings of the gifts together with the reception of the Holy Spirit (as in Acts 19:1-6).
 
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Arsenios

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I agree with this fully.


:oldthumbsup:


Yes, discipled. That was either a typo or a spell correct that went awry, and I didn't catch it. Sorry.

It caught me because many in the west understand askesis as closely involved with self-flagellation (a western practice) and other cruelties to punish one's flesh...

Unless I am misunderstanding you, I believe here is where we would reach our impasse. I admit to the possibility of being wrong, only I think we are short-changing ourselves if we don't expect a full return to everything the church was experiencing during New Testament times. I do believe in seeking the gifts, only I also believe the NT saints were to some extent automatically receiving partial outpourings of the gifts together with the reception of the Holy Spirit (as in Acts 19:1-6).

There are two very different matters going on here with the Holy Spirit. The first, which is conferred upon Baptism, is the "Christing", called Chrismation, of the newly cleansed person emerging from the Waters of Regeneration, symbollical demonstrated at the Baptism of Christ by the descent of the Holy Spirit in the form of a Dove, and its abiding on Christ. This constitutes the Seal of the Holy Spirit in the New Creation in Christ that the one receiving it now has become... Of itself, it does not confer Gifts of the Holy Spirit, although it CAN... And in the New Church's beginnings, one of these was the Gift of speaking in foreign languages, and I suspect that this may have been done as a Sign to the Jews who were being Baptized, because Jews always asked for a Sign for any purported teaching of the Holy Spirit... After the first century, this Gift faded away, and today we do not see it...

But the action of the Holy Spirit in the matter of Spiritual Gifts is quite another matter, and the great one of these was Gift of Prophesy, which was not so much a foretelling of future events as much as it was one of seeing into current ones, and especially into the difficulties of a person's soul which needed healing... Concurrent with this often is the Gift of Healing within another person's soul, where what is awry can be put back into proper order and health...

You will recall exhorting his followers to be seeking always Spiritual Gifts, and especially that of Prophesy, and you will recall Christ's instructions to be asking, seeking, and beckoning... And this a disciple should be doing without ceasing... In his prayers without ceasing... Day and night...

Discipleship, however, is not about obtaining Gifts, but is instead about purification of the heart...
The Gifts are not about discipleship, but Apostleship...
Discipleship does not cease with Apostleship...
Instead, it is even more enhanced...

This is why Christ told His Disciples that they were too weak to go forth, but should recluse themselves in prayer together until Pentecost, shen the Power of the Holy Spirit would come upon them and they would have the Strength to continue in that walk...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery,
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I'd be interested to hear, if you had time and space to share.

Before I knew there even WAS Orthodoxy, I loved listening to Ken Ortiz on the radio from Calvary Chapel, as he would go through the Bible and glean teachings from it that had to do with being a Disciple of Christ. I am told that he later considered becoming Orthodox, but declined to do so. The reason he considered it I think is because of the almost exclusive preoccupation Orthodox has with Discipleship, at least insofar as each of us is concerned exclusively with our own sins, and try not to get lost in the sins of others...

This is what the CCC ministers found when they "discovered" the Ancient Faith - They called it the "Best-Kept Secret in America"... The Greeks, the Russians, the Serbs, and on and on and on... They all tend to focus on their own selves and their own families, and live quiet and obscure and hidden lives.

But when the CCC pastors began to look into the teachings of this Church, which itself is a great Communion of Churches, they were astonished at what they found... They had formed a committee, you see, to investigate why they had failed so badly in their converting of thousanda upon thousands, only to lose almost alal of them, and one sub-committee was assigned to investigate this Church called Eastern Orthodoxy... When they got back and reported that they had venerated the very Head of John the Baptist, and that these Fathers they had met were the "real deal" - They expanded their enquiry and emulated the practices they had seen while trying to gain entry of theis several thousands into one of the local Orthodox Churches... The Russians said no, as did the Serbs, and the others as well, until the Arabic Church in Antioch, now headquartered in Damascus, relented and welcomed them "Home"... This has become, together with the Russian based Orthodox Church in America, the pre-eminently AMERICAN Orthodox Church with evangelistic outreach.

We regard the Americas pandemically as in great need of being evangellized...

Reading Gilquist's book tells the real story...

And fwiw, Hank Hanegraaff, the "Bible Answer Man", is now an Orthodox Christian...

And is paying the price from his Protestant colleagues:

Hank Hanegraaff Must Step Down After Converting to Eastern Orthodoxy: CRI Founder's Family

So did most of the CCC pastors...

It is a big deal...

I paid no such price - Us converts from vile atheism almost have an advantage! :)

Arsenios
 
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