Confession-olotry?

Status
Not open for further replies.

ctobola

Active Member
Sep 30, 2004
357
12
Fargo
✟562.00
Faith
Lutheran
One of the trends I've noticed -- particuarly among the more conservative groups within the Lutheran family -- is the tendency to take the Lutheran Confessions on the same level as the Creeds... and in some cases on the same level as Scripture.

Is this a problem? I've always considered the Confessions to be a useful tool for understanding and application of Scripture, but they are not inspired in the same sense that Scripture is.

What do the rest of you in the ELCA/ELCIC think of this trend?

-Cloy
 

KagomeShuko

Wretched Sinner/Belovèd Child of God/Church Nerd
Sep 6, 2004
6,618
204
42
Lake Charles, LA
Visit site
✟29,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I don't like the trend AT ALL. I've really realized it in the other Lutheran branches. Scriptures are the highest authority, period. The confessions are helpful (I can say, I'm Lutheran because it best fits my beliefs. . .but, such things that Luther wrote about the seat of the papacy being the anti-christ, well, my position is that I don't know because Revelation is in code and it says not to add or take away from what is written in that book, and to say that it definitely says that the seat of that papacy is the anti-Christ is adding to it).

It makes me feel very awful when thinking that such a book would be considered EQUAL to the scriptures.

Stein Auf!
Bridget
 
Upvote 0

RedneckAnglican

Once again...the Outsyder...
Feb 5, 2005
10,817
495
52
San Antonio, Texas
Visit site
✟20,899.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
the Book of Concord should be a guide to help to understand the scriptures...I don't mind using what Luther wrote to open up an understanding to the word, but I'm seeing people using isogesis and reading thier own meanings into the confessions like some people read thier own meanings into the scripture...I don't know the BOC as well as I should, but is there anything in there about a woman not being Ordained?...the way I look at it is it's GOD who ordains...the Church merely licences...my 2 cents...(probably not worth that...)
 
Upvote 0

Protoevangel

Smash the Patriarchy!
Feb 6, 2004
11,662
1,248
Eugene, OR
✟33,297.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
ctobola said:
One of the trends I've noticed -- particuarly among the more conservative groups within the Lutheran family -- is the tendency to take the Lutheran Confessions on the same level as the Creeds... and in some cases on the same level as Scripture.

Is this a problem? I've always considered the Confessions to be a useful tool for understanding and application of Scripture, but they are not inspired in the same sense that Scripture is.

What do the rest of you in the ELCA/ELCIC think of this trend?

-Cloy
Elevating the Confessions, or even the Creeds, to the same level as Scripture would certianly be a momentous error. The Confessions testify to Scripture, not add to them. They do exactly the same thing as the Creeds. The Creeds only authority is due to the fact that they clearly reflect that which is taught in Scripture. The Creeds are no more inspired in their nature than the Confessions.

I would be interested in seeing a clear example of someone here holding the Confessions on the "same level" as Scripture. I have not seen that. Actually, I see this thread as being little more than thinly-veiled bashing of the more Confessional synods. Please proove me wrong; not by argument, but by example.
 
Upvote 0

ctobola

Active Member
Sep 30, 2004
357
12
Fargo
✟562.00
Faith
Lutheran
Dan,

While I haven't seen anyone explicitly claim that the Confessions are of the same ilk as Scripture, but I do see the following...

Writers frequently claiming to hold to Scripture and the Confessions, as if they were on par with each other. One of our more conservative brethren (as opposed to sistren?) recently noted that, "For this matter I hold not to a synod or local congregation but to God's word and the Confessions."

Additionally, the LCMS/WELS penchant for close communion doesn't draw directly from Scripture, but takes one portion of the Confessions completely out of content (I believe) and then applies it as if it is authoritative in it's own right. (It's one thing to use isolated Scripture verses... what does it mean that we do the same to the Confessions.)

-Cloy



DanHead said:
Elevating the Confessions, or even the Creeds, to the same level as Scripture would certianly be a momentous error. The Confessions testify to Scripture, not add to them. They do exactly the same thing as the Creeds. The Creeds only authority is due to the fact that they clearly reflect that which is taught in Scripture. The Creeds are no more inspired in their nature than the Confessions.

I would be interested in seeing a clear example of someone here holding the Confessions on the "same level" as Scripture. I have not seen that. Actually, I see this thread as being little more than thinly-veiled bashing of the more Confessional synods. Please proove me wrong; not by argument, but by example.
 
Upvote 0

ctobola

Active Member
Sep 30, 2004
357
12
Fargo
✟562.00
Faith
Lutheran
Here are my two cents...

The "grand heuristic" (thought-provoking event) for me occurred back when I was doing youth work in Seattle. There was a young woman involved in our youth group who attended a congregation called the "Church of Christ" or the "Christian Church."

The leaders of her congregation used this name because they considered their beliefs to be pure, unadulterated Christianity. She claimed that "we don't follow the words of Martin Luther or any human being -- we only follow the Word of God that He gave us in Scripture" (or something similar).

When I asked her HOW they followed the Word of God, she recited a laundry list of how they correctly interpreted Scripture. ("We use clear passages to intrepret difficult passages...," etc.) Try as I might, I never did find her list anywhere between Genesis and Revelations. Apparently, this group DID follow the words of a human being.

In other words, they desperately wanted to be "right" and "orthdox" -- so they convinced themselves that they could view Scripture objectively and completely accurately. How silly.

I tend to think that those of us in the "named" denominations (Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians) are much more honest. We're willing to declare the pre-conceived notions we bring to the table when we sit down to read Scripture. (As a good social scientist, I think that's essential.) Ergo, we announce our biases -- as Lutherans we declare that we will approach Scripture in the manner laid out by the Confessions.

Does that mean that the Confessions are authoritative? Sort of... but not in the same way that Scripture is authoritative.

The Confessions are OUR annoucement of our priorities, findings and biases when it comes to reading Scripture. The Confessions are the words of fallible, errant people who come view Scripture through a particular set of "glasses." (Not to be confused with Joseph Smith's wacky gold glasses. :p )

So, if we want to be people of integrity... we should generally stick to the document that we hold up as our gameplan for reading Scripture.

But can we change our gameplan? Is it possible to discover that the words of the Confessions were influenced or limited by the time in which they were written? Is it possible to revisit the ideas and priorities presented in the Confessions in light of the Church as it exists in the 21st century?

I tend to think the answer to all of these questions is yes; but I also understand that a radical departure from what we have done in the past is unwise.

For example, I tend to think that some of the items laid out under the heading of "Good Order" could be considered a product of their times. When looking at this portion of the Augsburg Confession, I think it's fair to consider the following:
1. they reflect the only congregational structure that Luther had experienced (i.e., the Roman Catholic version)
2. these rules may have been influenced by the peasant uprising and other radical, thoughtless activities at that time
3. they fail to consider some of the alternate congregational structures presented in Scripture, such as the one used by the Presbyterians -- which appeared much later
4. they address a time when the lay people were generally uneducated, illiterate and highly superstituous; typically, the priest was the only one in the congregation who was educated
5. they may have been influenced by the desire of early Lutherans to avoid too much chaos, given the radical theological changes they had already presented.

In short, are these rules as applicable in 2005 as they were in the 16th century?

I'd appreciate hearing other thoughts.

-Cloy
 
Upvote 0

ctobola

Active Member
Sep 30, 2004
357
12
Fargo
✟562.00
Faith
Lutheran
Scott,

I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I noted the contrasting views of the more conservative Lutheran bodies, and ask my fellow ELCA/ELCIC members where they fall on the issue.

I noted that there is a tendency to mention Scripture and the Confessions in the same sentence, which could imply that they are equal footing. Your use of this sentence construction happened to be the first one I came across. (I chose NOT to mention your name out of courtesy. In my opinion, this practice seems to be fairly commonplace.... and I didn't want to imply that you were the only one doing it. I may have done it myself in the heat of discussion.)

Be that as it may, this is an ELCA/ELCIC forum -- we are discussing where we stand in relation to other bodies. Yes, we might be critical of other bodies. We will also likely be critical of our own denominiational actions.

Regardless, we don't need your assistance. I know that is difficult for you to comprehend, but you are not welcome to come to this forum and help "correct" us.

You have a set of presuppositions about what it means to be Lutheran -- I respect that. I have my own presuppositions; but I don't wander into the LCMS/WELS group and freak out because you won't accept my biases; I'm loathe to even do that in the "open" Lutheran group. Please do us the same courtesy.

In Christ, -C


SLStrohkirch said:
Cloy,

Why don't you take this to the General Lutheran Forum and let those of us you are accusing defend ourselves. Seeing as it was my quote that you used to make your point I think that if you don't it will be as Danhead says a thinly veiled bashing of our synod. This is a very serious allegation to make and I am offended that you put it here so it can't be defended in the way that it should be.

All bets are off from now on what is discussed in the LCMS forum. This really ticks me off.
 
Upvote 0

Protoevangel

Smash the Patriarchy!
Feb 6, 2004
11,662
1,248
Eugene, OR
✟33,297.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
Cloy said:
Writers frequently claiming to hold to Scripture and the Confessions, as if they were on par with each other.
Like I asked, give me an example. I don't think you can. I have already asked for an example of "someone here holding the Confessions on the ‘same level’ as Scripture" as you first accused, which you have not even attempted to provide. "For this matter I hold not to a synod or local congregation but to God's word and the Confessions" does not even come close to prove your point. I believe you are bearing false witness here. Please show me I am wrong.

Cloy said:
Additionally, the LCMS/WELS penchant for close communion doesn't draw directly from Scripture, but takes one portion of the Confessions completely out of content (I believe) and then applies it as if it is authoritative in it's own right.
Their position has been demonstrated and argued from Scripture. You and I both would disagree on the way they interpret that piece of Scripture and with the broad way they apply it, but this is certianlt appears to be another violation of the eighth Commandment, to accuse them as you are doing.

Cloy said:
I'm not accusing anyone of anything.
You are clearly accusing. You may not have started off by accusing any individual, but you certianly have been accusing a great number of people by inference. From the title of the thread, to the OP, to your response to my first post, and the way you used Scott's quote, which brings up your "I chose NOT to mention your name out of courtesy" statement - that's quite the joke. I am sure no one who frequents this board had any question as to who exactly you were talking about.

Cloy said:
I noted that there is a tendency to mention Scripture and the Confessions in the same sentence, which could imply that they are equal footing.
If I say, "I believe what Scriptures and C.S. Lewis said about X", show me how that means I believe that C.S. Lewis is on the "same level" as Scripture. It is the same with the Confessions. You are inventing this, building up a straw man position that no one here represents, and are showing everyone how easy it is to tear down this straw man.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SPALATIN
Upvote 0

ctobola

Active Member
Sep 30, 2004
357
12
Fargo
✟562.00
Faith
Lutheran
Dan,

It wasn't my intent to indict anyone. I perceived that something was happening and I asked for comments and thoughts from other ELCA/ELCIC people.

As I noted when I replied, I didn't have any explicit examples to provide -- just anecedotal examples that I was trying to understand... and maybe I misunderstood them.

I am personally wrestling with the role of the Confessions -- and I think I laid out my own thoughts and frustrations in an earlier post.

If my post was hurtful to anyone -- including Scott -- then I apologize.

-Cloy



DanHead said:
Like I asked, give me an example. I don't think you can. I have already asked for an example of "someone here holding the Confessions on the ‘same level’ as Scripture" as you first accused, which you have not even attempted to provide. "For this matter I hold not to a synod or local congregation but to God's word and the Confessions" does not even come close to prove your point. I believe you are bearing false witness here. Please show me I am wrong.


Their position has been demonstrated and argued from Scripture. You and I both would disagree on the way they interpret that piece of Scripture and with the broad way they apply it, but this is certianlt appears to be another violation of the eighth Commandment, to accuse them as you are doing.


You are clearly accusing. You may not have started off by accusing any individual, but you certianly have been accusing a great number of people by inference. From the title of the thread, to the OP, to your response to my first post, and the way you used Scott's quote, which brings up your "I chose NOT to mention your name out of courtesy" statement - that's quite the joke. I am sure no one who frequents this board had any question as to who exactly you were talking about.


If I say, "I believe what Scriptures and C.S. Lewis said about X", show me how that means I believe that C.S. Lewis is on the "same level" as Scripture. It is the same with the Confessions. You are inventing this, building up a straw man position that no one here represents, and are showing everyone how easy it is to tear down this straw man.
 
Upvote 0

Protoevangel

Smash the Patriarchy!
Feb 6, 2004
11,662
1,248
Eugene, OR
✟33,297.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
ctobola said:
Dan,

It wasn't my intent to indict anyone. I perceived that something was happening and I asked for comments and thoughts from other ELCA/ELCIC people.

As I noted when I replied, I didn't have any explicit examples to provide -- just anecedotal examples that I was trying to understand... and maybe I misunderstood them.

I am personally wrestling with the role of the Confessions -- and I think I laid out my own thoughts and frustrations in an earlier post.

If my post was hurtful to anyone -- including Scott -- then I apologize.

-Cloy
I for one, forgive you, and in the very same breath ask for your forgiveness for my own breach of the eighth Commandment in this thread.

In the Confessions, we are taught the meaning of the eighth Commandment thusly:
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"[/font]

I did not put the best possible construction on everything you said. I said what I said to make a point, but I know I could have been more constructive in how I made that point. I am sorry.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pmcleanj
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Tetzel

Veteran
Nov 19, 2004
1,387
84
✟10,575.00
Faith
Lutheran
ctobola said:
One of the trends I've noticed -- particuarly among the more conservative groups within the Lutheran family -- is the tendency to take the Lutheran Confessions on the same level as the Creeds... and in some cases on the same level as Scripture.

Is this a problem? I've always considered the Confessions to be a useful tool for understanding and application of Scripture, but they are not inspired in the same sense that Scripture is.

What do the rest of you in the ELCA/ELCIC think of this trend?

-Cloy

Creeds and confessions are no different. Both derive their authority from their accordance to scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Qoheleth

Byzantine Catholic
Jul 8, 2004
2,702
142
✟11,372.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Holy Scripture is the norma normans-- the ruling rule, and the
Confessions are the norma normata-- the ruled rule. The latter decides whether the person has clearly understood the true doctrines of Scripture. We don't play one off against the other.



The Lutheran Confessions are a clear exposition of the Word of God and the ruled rule, the ruling rule being Holy Scripture


Q
 
Upvote 0

Willy

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2003
707
2
65
✟8,381.00
Faith
Protestant
Confession-olatry is similar to bibliolatry. Some people make the Bible their god, saying that it is what they believe in it. Christians don't believe in the Bible. They believe in God. There was a wonderful editorial piece on NPR the other day that was narrated by a Muslim woman. She wanted other Muslims to admit that the Qu'ran in places is not helpful. She wanted her Muslim brothers and sisters to admit that their holy book has problems. Christians would do well to admit the same thing. In so doing we would become more compassionate and more open to the God who is much bigger than a book.
 
Upvote 0

ctobola

Active Member
Sep 30, 2004
357
12
Fargo
✟562.00
Faith
Lutheran
Three questions that I wrestle with regarding the Confessions...

1. Are they inerrant?
If we say yes, doesn't this essentially put them on the same level as Scripture? We certainly don't have the issues related to original source material that we have with Scripture... so we can't even say (as we do with Scripture) that they are inerrent in their original form -- we have the original forms.

2. Are they complete?
Do they address all that is needed with regard to the our theology and practice? ... or do changes in the last 500 years (including more accurate Scriptural translations) require is to revisit some things presented in the Confessions?

3. How much of them is a result of cultural context?
There are certainly things in Scripture that are a product of the time in which they are written. (e.g., men having short hair, women covering their heads, etc.) What, if anything, in the Confessions is a result of the context in which they were written?


The decision of the ELCA leadership to throw out portions of the Confessions to make the Episicopal Agreement (CCM) happen was utter apostacy; but are there things that we should thoughtfully and deliberately rethink?

I'd like to hear what others think.

-Cloy
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

AngelusSax

Believe
Apr 16, 2004
5,252
426
42
Ohio
Visit site
✟22,990.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The decision of the ELCA leadership to throw out portions of the Confessions to make the Episicopal Agreement (CCM) happen was utter apostacy; but are there things that we should thoughtfully and deliberately rethink?

There may be. I don't think it was necessarily apostasy with the CCM thing though. I didn't see the ELCA running from all Christian faith. Heresy, quite possibly yes. Apostasy... I doubt it. Just to clarify/nitpick.
 
Upvote 0

ctobola

Active Member
Sep 30, 2004
357
12
Fargo
✟562.00
Faith
Lutheran
Point taken. I was trying to say that the ELCA leadership had to abandon the Lutheran faith (and the Priesthood of All Believers, which I tend to think is central to Lutheranism) in order to make CCM happen.

-Cloy




AngelusSax said:
There may be. I don't think it was necessarily apostasy with the CCM thing though. I didn't see the ELCA running from all Christian faith. Heresy, quite possibly yes. Apostasy... I doubt it. Just to clarify/nitpick.
 
Upvote 0

Protoevangel

Smash the Patriarchy!
Feb 6, 2004
11,662
1,248
Eugene, OR
✟33,297.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
1. Are they inerrant?
Inerrant maybe, but absolutely not infallable. Inerrant is free from error, it is infallable that means incapable of error. I once heard a person explain it this way: a phone book that has every number and name correct would be inerrant. That does not mean that there is any Divine inspiration that we attribute to that phone book simply because it is correct in all of it's parts.

2. Are they complete?
I don't think they need to be absolutely complete. They are accurate in their exposition of Scripture. That is their scope and that is enough. Everything in the Book of Concord should be looked at in light of the Biblical witness. From my own study, I am convinced that they will not be found wanting.

3. How much of them is a result of cultural context?
I would say the exposition of Scripture in the Book of Concord is true and still relevant today. The Gospel is never out of context regardless of culture.
 
Upvote 0

mnphysicist

Have Courage to Trust God!
May 11, 2005
7,764
669
59
South East Minnesota (east of Rochester)
Visit site
✟57,148.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Democrat
Just a thought here....

From my readings of Luther years ago. He would have a major fit if his writings were elevated to the same level of scripture. However, this is based upon a 20 year time span, so I could be wrong.

Ron
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ctobola

Active Member
Sep 30, 2004
357
12
Fargo
✟562.00
Faith
Lutheran
Dan,

Thanks for your thoughts -- you bring up some good points.

This whole thing gets a little sticky for me. If we consider the Confessions an "inerrant," "accurate," or "complete" interpretations that's one thing; but since they draw from Scripture, the whole issue of "guilty (or inspired) by association" starts to wander into the equation.

Ultimately, this takes me back to the drawing board -- the Confessions become something we can't question because of their association with Scripture.

I'm not trying to be contrary here -- I'm really wrestling with the issue because there are some things (not major theological statements, mind you) in the Confessions that I have difficulty with... and I'm trying to come to terms with these issues from a Christian and Lutheran perspective.

In Christ, -Cloy

-Cloy


DanHead said:
1. Are they inerrant?
Inerrant maybe, but absolutely not infallable. Inerrant is free from error, it is infallable that means incapable of error. I once heard a person explain it this way: a phone book that has every number and name correct would be inerrant. That does not mean that there is any Divine inspiration that we attribute to that phone book simply because it is correct in all of it's parts.

2. Are they complete?
I don't think they need to be absolutely complete. They are accurate in their exposition of Scripture. That is their scope and that is enough. Everything in the Book of Concord should be looked at in light of the Biblical witness. From my own study, I am convinced that they will not be found wanting.

3. How much of them is a result of cultural context?
I would say the exposition of Scripture in the Book of Concord is true and still relevant today. The Gospel is never out of context regardless of culture.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.