BREAKING: Vatican dismisses Father Frank Pavone from priesthood

[Jesse Dornfeld]

and how he was downgraded for absolutely nothing?

I recall reading at one point that his popeship was supposed to be "temporary." I do not know if they say the same thing for all popes, but, for some reason, that was very memorable for me. It seemed like they were saying that he would not be pope for very long and was really only a sort of "fill-in."

 

[Michie]

I'm not much of a 'hagan lio' kind of guy. I'd sooner ask 'can't we all just get along'. But the 'hagan lio' happened and we can't pretend it didn't. We have a duty of obedience to our pope. Even, and maybe especially, when we don't like it.

I try to go with the flow unless I’ve hit my limit. I’ll make some noise then for sure. May not be a good thing at times but we all have our thorns. Lol

 

[fide]

The poster that said this is falsely called a Catholic forum. Not you.

I guess I missed that post - I didn't see it. Thanks.

 

[Michie]

I guess I missed that post - I didn't see it. Thanks.

Reread the thread and you will. We were accused of being a falsely named Catholic forum. It had nothing to do with you at all.

 

[fide]

It's telling that you think it was about you even though it wasn't.

And that is your way of saying exactly what?

 

[chevyontheriver]

I recall reading at one point that his popeship was supposed to be "temporary." I do not know if they say the same thing for all popes, but, for some reason, that was very memorable for me. It seemed like they were saying that he would not be pope for very long and was really only a sort of "fill-in."

They say that of older popes. Like pope John XXIII was supposed to be a short time pope, and he actually was. But calling the Second Vatican Council was quite an earthquake he caused.

Benedict was the logical choice even at his age. A superlative theologian, and aware of what went on in the Church and the world, there was no better pick. Sure he had his critics on the left, but they didn’t like pope John Paul II either.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

The problem is his lack of mercy, and of justice, and of compassion toward the many faithful Catholics who love and treasure our Sacred Tradition (whom he dismisses as "rigid"), the Sacred Mass of centuries (whom he cancels with the Liturgy itself, as "stuck in the past"), those who cling to common sense such as "gender" being fixed at birth and conjugal love being fixed by God in the beginning - those who hold to such relics of the past are cast away as merciless judges refusing to "accompany" sinners in their sins, refusing to "progress" in their "faith" with him. No, thank you. He, like many "progressives" it seems, describe his enemies with behaviors that describe himself! His problem, which he projects upon others, is himself. He has seen the enemy, and it is HIM.

That is a common psychological ploy used by many. The only antidote is humility and obedience. My problems with the Church did not stem from a improper noninfallible doctrine by historical clerics well meaning; my problem resided in my soul will and intellect and I thank God everyday that His rock was there to teach me. But for catholic teaching, I would not know sin, and if I do not know sin, I would not know repentance.
He is our Pope and I will obey, but I do not give up the faith once delivered to the saints. Catholic teaching can develop but never change. I believe that Francis is here to make sure we do not go too far to the right of the ship. It is easy to become tribal and cast out the infidels, but our Lord told us to love our enemies, and the catechism teaches that there is not one soul for whom Christ did not suffer and die, even those we despise.
The key in this battle is self reflection and humility. We do not pit homosexual Vs heterosexual. That is not the fight. The real fight is chastity vs unchastity. We as heterosexuals have winked a sexual sin because well at least it’s not homosexual. We have tolerated contraception easy enough when that act is just as unnatural as homosexuality. We have left the natural use of the woman and gone for pleasure only. We need to repent and ask for God’s grace. Obey Church teaching if we expect others to obey as well. We can’t do it alone. We need the sacraments, the Eucharist especially, prayer and fasting. God has granted me the grace of chastity because I asked for it.
As far as the Liturgy goes, we need to ask, Does the Novus Ordo confect the Eucharist? If it does, then Our Lord Jesus Christ is on the Altar body and blood, soul and divinity. He deserves our worship and respect. I am all for promoting the TLM; it is a beautiful Liturgy and should never be abandoned, just don’t disrespect Our Lord in the process. Yes I believe Francis is being heavy handed, but he is our Pope and we need to obey, yet never forget. I am blessed that I have a Christ the King Church near me that says the TLM with the blessing of the Bishop

Peace be with you all

 

[chevyontheriver]

And that is your way of saying exactly what?

To chill a bit. Not practice ‘ready, shoot, aim’. That kind of thing.

 

[fide]

It was a mixed bag. He did tell his disciples to do as they say but not as they do. Remember that one?

There are no "mixed bags" with Jesus. The obedience He was referring to, was to their teachings that were "from the seat" of Moses, where they had "seated themselves." Being "on" the seat of Moses meant (my understanding here) when they were speaking/teaching true to Moses's teachings - when their teachings were faithful to their Tradition and Law, then, and only then, were they speaking "from the seat of Moses." When they departed from the seat of Moses - then they were speaking out of only themselves - then they had no authority and required no obedience - then Jesus was NOT telling them to obey either what they said or did. Jewish tradition was strongly against following false prophets.

Catholic teaching are similar: when anyone - pope down to priest - teaches outside of Catholic Doctrine, when they are not "on or from the chair of Peter" we are not obliged to obey.

 

[fide]

That is a common psychological ploy used by many. The only antidote is humility and obedience. My problems with the Church did not stem from a improper noninfallible doctrine by historical clerics well meaning; my problem resided in my soul will and intellect and I thank God everyday that His rock was there to teach me. But for catholic teaching, I would not know sin, and if I do not know sin, I would not know repentance.
He is our Pope and I will obey, but I do not give up the faith once delivered to the saints. Catholic teaching can develop but never change. I believe that Francis is here to make sure we do not go too far to the right of the ship. It is easy to become tribal and cast out the infidels, but our Lord told us to love our enemies, and the catechism teaches that there is not one soul for whom Christ did not suffer and die, even those we despise.
The key in this battle is self reflection and humility. We do not pit homosexual Vs heterosexual. That is not the fight. The real fight is chastity vs unchastity. We as heterosexuals have winked a sexual sin because well at least it’s not homosexual. We have tolerated contraception easy enough when that act is just as unnatural as homosexuality. We have left the natural use of the woman and gone for pleasure only. We need to repent and ask for God’s grace. Obey Church teaching if we expect others to obey as well. We can’t do it alone. We need the sacraments, the Eucharist especially, prayer and fasting. God has granted me the grace of chastity because I asked for it.
As far as the Liturgy goes, we need to ask, Does the Novus Ordo confect the Eucharist? If it does, then Our Lord Jesus Christ is on the Altar body and blood, soul and divinity. He deserves our worship and respect. I am all for promoting the TLM; it is a beautiful Liturgy and should never be abandoned, just don’t disrespect Our Lord in the process. Yes I believe Francis is being heavy handed, but he is our Pope and we need to obey, yet never forget. I am blessed that I have a Christ the King Church near me that says the TLM with the blessing of the Bishop

Peace be with you all

So you haven't yet seen the "abomination of desolation standing in the holy place." What will you do, when you do?

 

[fide]

To chill a bit. Not practice ‘ready, shoot, aim’. That kind of thing.

You presume quite a bit.

 

[chevyontheriver]

There are no "mixed bags" with Jesus. The obedience He was referring to, was to their teachings that were "from the seat" of Moses, where they had "seated themselves." Being "on" the seat of Moses meant (my understanding here) when they were speaking/teaching true to Moses's teachings - when their teachings were faithful to their Tradition and Law, then, and only then, were they speaking "from the seat of Moses." When they departed from the seat of Moses - then they were speaking out of only themselves - then they had no authority and required no obedience - then Jesus was NOT telling them to obey either what they said or did. Jewish tradition was strongly against following false prophets.

Catholic teaching are similar: when anyone - pope down to priest - teaches outside of Catholic Doctrine, when they are not "on or from the chair of Peter" we are not obliged to obey.

There’s that disobedience when you feel like it thing showing again. Obedience is easy when you approve of everything. It is only when your desires are not affirmed that obedience is significant and hard. Fr. Pavone couldn’t obey because, in the end, he didn’t want to. His will triumphed, but now he can’t say mass. His choice. He did it his way.

You don’t like pope Francis. I get that. I think he is a bad pope. You have figured out that you can totally blow him off. I ignore a lot of what he says but I nonetheless recognize his authority in the ordinary function of his office. He has that even if not speaking ex cathedra. For better or for worse.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

So you haven't yet seen the "abomination of desolation standing in the holy place." What will you do, when you do?

The sacrifices have not yet ceased. Covid looked like it was going to be the time, but it is not yet. What I will do when the Abomination of desolation comes?
I will continue to follow my Lord and His Church.
Schism is never the answer. Christ founded one faith, One Lord, one baptism.
I will oppose sodomy from with in the Church, but I will never leave her. The gates of hell will not prevail. I am already organizing Auxilium Christianoram within my parish to fight the spiritual battle. The greatest battle is the inner battle for souls. We are easily lead astray unless we stay the course and fight the battle daily.

I study Malachi Marin and Father Chad Riperger, not SSPX or Sedavacantists (Sp) Too early for correct spelling in this post

 

[fide]

The sacrifices have not yet ceased. Covid looked like it was going to be the time, but it is not yet. What I will do when the Abomination of desolation comes?
I will continue to follow my Lord and His Church.
Schism is never the answer. Christ founded one faith, One Lord, one baptism.
I will oppose sodomy from with in the Church, but I will never leave her. The gates of hell will not prevail. I am already organizing Auxilium Christianoram within my parish to fight the spiritual battle. The greatest battle is the inner battle for souls. We are easily lead astray unless we stay the course and fight the battle daily.

I study Malachi Marin and Father Chad Riperger, not SSPX or Sedavacantists (Sp) Too early for correct spelling in this post

The sacrifices have already diminished, which is step 1 in their consistently followed incrementalism.

I am not advocating schism. We must not be deceived by appearances. The man standing falsely in the Holy Place will be the schismatic and center of the schism, whose counterfeit "church" departed in the dark from the True and only One. The faithful remain in the Church, faithful in the Truth, in the Lord.

 

[fide]

There’s that disobedience when you feel like it thing showing again. Obedience is easy when you approve of everything. It is only when your desires are not affirmed that obedience is significant and hard. Fr. Pavone couldn’t obey because, in the end, he didn’t want to. His will triumphed, but now he can’t say mass. His choice. He did it his way.

You don’t like pope Francis. I get that. I think he is a bad pope. You have figured out that you can totally blow him off. I ignore a lot of what he says but I nonetheless recognize his authority in the ordinary function of his office. He has that even if not speaking ex cathedra. For better or for worse.

Dear Brother Chevy, this will be my last to you on this matter; our discussion has become mere repetition. I would like to hear your answer to my post above - "What will you do when you see the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy place? What of your "obedience' then?"

And I'll leave this, for any who might sense a reason to read it:

Unquestioned obedience to a Superior is a virtue, as long as the Superior himself is consistently, heroically obedient to God in the Holy Spirit. Unquestioned obedience to a Superior is not a virtue but an idolatry, when the Superior speaks, acts and imposes the ways of man independent of God.

St. Peter, our first Pope, gave this exhortation to a Church under attack - whether from without or within - from satan and his evil slaves:

Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour.
Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experience of suffering is required of your brotherhood throughout the world.
And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, establish, and strengthen you.
To him be the dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (1 Peter 5:8-11)

The passage I put in bold was included in this exhortation from a contemporary champion of the Catholic Faith, Carlo Maria Viganò, Archbishop. I’ll close with his words, spoken with more clarity and urgency and unction than I could speak:

In order to bring down the deep state and the deep church, three things are essential:
1) first of all, becoming aware of what globalism’s plan is, and to what extent it is instrumental to the establishment of the kingdom of the Antichrist, since it shares its principles, means, and ends;
2) secondly, firmly denouncing this infernal plan and asking the Shepherds of the Church – and also the laity – to defend her, breaking their complicit silence: God will demand of them an account for their desertion;
3) finally, it is necessary to pray, asking the Lord to grant each one of us the strength to resist – resistite fortes in fide, Saint Peter warns us – against the ideological tyranny that is daily imposed on us not only by the media but also by the cardinals and bishops who are under Bergoglio’s thumb.

If we can prove ourselves strong in facing this trial; if we know how to hold ourselves anchored to the rock of the Church without allowing ourselves to be seduced by false christs and false prophets, the Lord will permit us to see – at least for now – the defeat of the assault of the children of darkness against God and men. If out of fear or complicity we follow the prince of this world, denying our Baptismal promises, we will be condemned with him to inexorable defeat and eternal damnation. I tremble for those who do not realize the responsibility that they have before God for the souls that He has entrusted to them. But to those who fight courageously to defend the rights of God, the Nation, and the Family, the Lord assures his protection. He has placed His Most Holy Mother at our side, the Queen of Victories and the Help of Christians. We invoke Her faithfully during these difficult days, confidently certain of Her intervention.

 

[Erose]

All this Conservatives Catholic vs Liberal Catholic vs Traditional Catholic vs Progressive Catholic business shows one major issue in our Church, that somewhere along the line needs to be addressed: Too many Catholics and for that matter Christians see their faith via the lens of their political or world views. How about we start seeing our political/world views be based upon our faith?

 

[Michie]

Well, it’s been a miserable few weeks in the Catholic prolife world, and weighing in while I’m angry, haven’t done the research, etc., like many, seemed like a poor choice. After dealing with almost two weeks of daily queries for my opinion from people on the internet, as well as family and friends, I decided the Feast of the Holy Innocents was a perfect day to finally put fingers to keyboard.

I am a huge Pastor Aeternus fan, so when the whole thing dropped about the laicization of “the prolifer formerly known as Fr. Pavone” (yes, that’s about how ridiculous this punishment is), I decided to wait to see the many expected interviews he’d do and he did not disappoint.

I’ve known him for years now, although I have not shared this persona with him. Ironically, one of my first encounters with him was at (surprise!) a prolife event on the heels of the weirdness that was going on with Fr. Corapi and the tragic story of Fr. Euteneuer. Me being me, I walked up to him and said, “It’s wonderful to see you, and if you could not let us down, I’d really appreciate it.” I doubt he remembers that, but he knew exactly what I was talking about and we talked about it. It was a mere few months later that the then-Fr. Pavone (I’m going to use that title whenever I can!) got a time out in Amarillo, and he dutifully obeyed. I remember thinking then that I was so happy he obeyed. Did Bishop Zurek have the canonical authority to do it? Yup. Was it somehow disobedient for the then-Fr. Pavone to appeal to a higher authority? Of course not. Appealing does not equal disobedience. It’s his canonical right, even if said bishop doesn’t like someone going over his head. Neither is it disobedient to seek a transfer and take it if it’s allowed. And here’s the big question: Is a legal and lawful act always right and just? NOPE!

Continued below

The Pavone Debacle

Well, it’s been a miserable few weeks in the Catholic prolife world, and weighing in while I’m angry, haven’t done the research, etc., like many, seemed like a poor choice. After dealing with almos…

onemadmom.foedus.co

 

[chevyontheriver]

I would like to hear your answer to my post above - "What will you do when you see the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy place? What of your "obedience' then?"

Having seen an abomination in St. Peter's recently, with the pope participating, this isn't theoretical. I'm referring to the Pachamama debacle, which promptly was followed by the Covid shutdown. I do think the two things were quite related as spiritual cause and effect. I had no illusions it was otherwise, even at the time.

Those of us with any sense realized this was a time for penance. An enforced penance and a long Eucharistic fast. Some of our priests figured out how to have confessions in this period of time. At my parish the priests sat out in the parking lot to hear confessions from people who drove up. They had a Eucharistic confession. And then when the governor came down hard against opening up churches the bishops called his bluff.

And finally mass was restored to us. Not everybody came back. but those who did, those who were penitent, those who prayed as acts of reparation for the blasphemy that occurred in the Vatican, we who persevered have come back better for it. We now know what abominations let loose. We know these aren't battles of mere flesh and blood, but against the powers of Gehenna. We have seen that the gates of hell have not yet endured. We have hope God will not abandon us even when worse things happen.

As to obedience, if you can't do it, then fine. But it's like David having a spear at Saul's head and crushing his skull. Which David did not do by the way. Even though he had the spear at Saul's head.

 

[fide]

All this Conservatives Catholic vs Liberal Catholic vs Traditional Catholic vs Progressive Catholic business shows one major issue in our Church, that somewhere along the line needs to be addressed: Too many Catholics and for that matter Christians see their faith via the lens of their political or world views. How about we start seeing our political/world views be based upon our faith?

I think the most accurate way to see the "major issue", is to see the problem as manifesting the radical, essential difference between the natural and the supernatural. The separation used to manifest as liberals vs. conservatives, now more likely progressives/socialists vs. traditionalists/conservatives - but far more important, to this life here and now as well as the eternal life coming soon to us all, is the essential foundational realization of the supernatural, vs. the blindness to the supernatural and its consequence: the misinterpretation of (supernatural) spiritual realities as merely (natural) religious words.

A slang way to say it: he's all hat and no cowboy. Or for religious folks: he's all collar and no vocation. Or he's a CINO - "Catholic In Name Only." But the sad truth is, it seems, knowing the words "faith" and "believe" and "belief" is not the same as possessing the truth of what those words stand for. It is when those words are merely "empty suits" - or empty symbols, that "religion" and secular matters, get confused and conflated.

 

[Erose]

I think the most accurate way to see the "major issue", is to see the problem as manifesting the radical, essential difference between the natural and the supernatural. The separation used to manifest as liberals vs. conservatives, now more likely progressives/socialists vs. traditionalists/conservatives - but far more important, to this life here and now as well as the eternal life coming soon to us all, is the essential foundational realization of the supernatural, vs. the blindness to the supernatural and its consequence: the misinterpretation of (supernatural) spiritual realities as merely (natural) religious words.

I disagree with this post. I’m assuming you are putting traditionalist/conservatives in the believe in supernatural camp; and the progressive/liberal (socialist) in the unbelief camp; and that is just not the reality. If the P/L(S) camp didn’t have belief in the supernatural, they would be part of the NONES and not part of the Church. Over the years I have known people heavily in the P/L camp that were very spiritual in their faith. The only difference between those camps and the T/C camps is the rigidity of doctrine/liturgy.

That being said there are plenty in the T/C camps who reject the supernatural as well. The perfect example is with the Traditionalist rejecting the current lectionary, and they in various grades rejecting or minimizing the supernaturalness of the current Mass.

That is the irony of these four camps. They all in one way or another are just alike. They take what they like and complain about/condemn the rest.

Orthodox Catholics on the other hand take what is given to them by the Church. They may not understand it, and they may have preferences when it comes to liturgical practice(s); but they keep coming to Mass, keep saying their prayers, reverence those God has put over them, love the Blessed Mother, worship their God; and trust that at the end of the day, Jesus’ promise that the gates of hell shall not prevail over the Church, as long as we have a pope holds true.