Biblical support for gay sex? A simple question

[darkshadow]

To answer your question KCKID, love them no matter what, but let them know that I do not agree with there life decision. I would also assume that since they were raised in a "sincere" christian home they would know that the act of homosexuality is a sin, not being gay, but acting on it. Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner.

 

[*Starlight*]

A simple question:

Where is/are the passages, scriptures, or statements, in the Bible, from either the Old Testament (or rather, the Tanakh, if you like) or from the New Testament, that promotes, supports or encourages "anyone," to engage in same-gender sex acts?

It's right next to the verse that promotes, supports, and encourages people to post on internet forums.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To KCKID,

And, as per my post #29, so what? What is this 'omission' supposed to prove?

It proves the case for homosexual unions is Biblically baseless.
But it is only one half of the equation, the other half is the one discussed at length on most of the other threds, that the Bible only countenances male/female sexual unions or celibacy, and we can show at least a dozen passages that exclude or condemn homosexual unions.

So belief in homosexual unions is not just based on silence, its also based on serious disbelief.

As to children, Kerwin is absolutely correct, a child in a Christian family is raised to know about Christianity but unless they choose Christ they wont be Christian. This contrasts with your comment

There are any number of 'gays' that were raised as Christians

Fair enough, they were gay which they didn’t choose but raised as Christians and then may or may not choose to be Christian.

Furthermore, being 'gay' is NOT a sin, so your equating homosexuality with adulterers and thieves is offensive.

Whether you take offence is your choice, but you are being offended by Christianity because people can be tempted by adultery and theft just as homosexual practice.

 

[KCKID]

1. Both the Old and New Testament speak of Homosexuality as a abomination to God, Leviticus and Romans. 2. The Song Of Soloman is all about love and falling in love. 3. Yes, again Leviticus and Romans both speak of homosexuality. The reason for responding again is simple, the thread was still going and I felt like answering again with a non PC answer. Like it or not there are not Scriptures in the entire Bible that condone homosexuality, and there are several that condemn it. Its not even a real issue, the Bible is quite clear about it, just because some do not agree does not chage the facts. I am not meaning this in any way but as my own understanding of the Scriptures.

That's fine, darkshadow, and thanks for your response. As has been mentioned many times previously, however, the actual word 'homosexual' is a relatively modern word that may not - and probably doesn't - adequately define the ancient texts of the Bible. If anything, the word 'homosexual' has replaced the word 'sodomy' so that alone innacurately describes someone with a same-gender attraction. Not every homosexual person practices sodomy. Many heterosexuals DO practice sodomy but this practice was probably not recorded as having occurred in biblical times. Therefore, even if sodomy IS a present-day sin (because it doesn't result in 'making babies') 'same-sex attraction' certainly is not a sin. How can it be?

The above explanation would also mean that any form of homosexual 'love-making' that excludes sodomy would not even be a scriptural issue. As said, if anything it's sodomy that is taboo in the Bible. Not homosexuality per se. Even then sodomy is probably only taboo because it doesn't lead to procreation. Birth control would be similarly taboo in the Bible. Do you not understand where I'm coming from?

The Bible is not as clear cut on this issue as some would believe.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To KCKID,
I think many apart from you have pointed out that the word homosexuality is essentially having a same sex attraction with an ‘and/or’ lifestyle or practice. This is why the Biblical condemnation of homosexual practice is the issue whether the modern concept ‘homosexuality’ fits it or not.

'same-sex attraction' certainly is not a sin. How can it be?

Well Jesus teaches that if a man looks lustfully at another women apart from His wife he has committed adultery in his heart. It would therefore be strange that a heterosexual can have sinful sexual desires but not homosexuals; this is why thinking in terms of the modern concepts ‘homosexual’ and ‘heterosexual’ is misleading and confusing when it comes to the Biblical truth

Also

homosexual 'love-making'

is another modern concept that confuses the Biblical truth. There is no Biblical concept of love making that is sexual. The bible makes no mention of the modern English concept of ‘love’ The Bible mentions philiea and above all agape, love which is friendship/fellowship and the sacrificial love of God respectively. Eros isn’t mentioned.

The Bible is not as clear cut on this issue as some would believe.

It is very clear cut as long as one doesn’t think in terms of homosexual and heterosexual.

Now back to the thread, darkshadow is correct…

1. Both the Old and New Testament speak of Homosexuality as a abomination to God, Leviticus and Romans. 2.

in respect to homosexual practice, but the thread is about there being no scripture to support homosexual practice as opposed to their being plenty to condemn it.

You see arguing from silence just cancels each other out. Whether you accept the texts we present is actually irrelevant unless you can provide texts to support what you are saying. If you cant you don’t really have right to question the ones we present.

What the Scriptures teach about homosexual behavior is in the guidelines. We have provided scriptures which exclude and condemn homosexual practice, this is the Christian position.

 

[Kerwin]

It's hardly a silly question.

The way I understand is silly as I pointed out that parents may desire their children to do as they were taught but too many children choose their own path. On the other hand you might have been asking what Christian parents should do should one or more of their children choose to embrace the sin of homosexuality. They should not enable it but neither should they cut the child off from their support. I will tell you how God treats me. He lets me know that what I do is evil and that he wants me to change before it destroys me or others.

By the way, they didn't just 'decide' to be 'gay'. They always knew that they were 'gay' or, at least, 'different' in a sexual way.

That is most likely nonsense. The reason I believe that is that I myself was once a child and I did not even really think about sex until I was probably 7 and then it was only a form of play. It was probably not until my teen years that it became anything more and then I had doubts about my sexuality. I assure you I hope my home environment was not the normal one though I have heard that American teens often have doubts about their sexuality. Some of those who chose to be homosexual probably were convinced in their teen years by insignificant evidence; others may have been convinced later. Some may have had events happen earlier in their life than their teens that convinced them. From what little I have seen many homosexuals are either bisexual or go through a bisexual phase.

Furthermore, being 'gay' is NOT a sin, so your equating homosexuality with adulterers and thieves is offensive.

I assume right off the bat that you do not believe scripture when it states that men fulfilling their desires with men and women fulfilling their desires with women is a sin rated with any other sin. I hope you agree with the statement that any sin is a trespass of the law of loves your neighbor as yourself. It is not love to misuse your body as one must in a homosexual affair as man is not woman and woman is not man.

 

[darkshadow]

That's fine, darkshadow, and thanks for your response. As has been mentioned many times previously, however, the actual word 'homosexual' is a relatively modern word that may not - and probably doesn't - adequately define the ancient texts of the Bible. If anything, the word 'homosexual' has replaced the word 'sodomy' so that alone innacurately describes someone with a same-gender attraction. Not every homosexual person practices sodomy. Many heterosexuals DO practice sodomy but this practice was probably not recorded as having occurred in biblical times. Therefore, even if sodomy IS a present-day sin (because it doesn't result in 'making babies') 'same-sex attraction' certainly is not a sin. How can it be?

The above explanation would also mean that any form of homosexual 'love-making' that excludes sodomy would not even be a scriptural issue. As said, if anything it's sodomy that is taboo in the Bible. Not homosexuality per se. Even then sodomy is probably only taboo because it doesn't lead to procreation. Birth control would be similarly taboo in the Bible. Do you not understand where I'm coming from?

The Bible is not as clear cut on this issue as some would believe.

First off I never said anything about sodomy you did. Second, the Bible states that a man is not to lay with another man as he would a woman. Unless you are really going to reach for a different meaning, that is pretty clear cut. Oh and the first known appearance of homosexual in print is found in an 1869 German pamphlet by the Austrian-born novelist Karla-Maria Kentbeny published anonymously. (Wikipedia). Sodomy on the other hand is an entirely different issue, since it pertains to both Homosexual and Heterosexual couples. You can not say oh well the Bible says nothing about this subject as right so its alright if it says its wrong. I agree the Bible is silent both ways for/against birth control, and even sodomy but it is not silent on homosexuality. The Bible is silent about a lot of things, cars, airplanes, tanks, guns, and etc.. the list could go on forever. It is not silent on murder however, meaning if you murder someone with a gun its still murder. You say that "'same-sex attraction' certainly is not a sin. How can it be?" easy, if you look a beautiful woman is it a sin? No. If you lust after a beautiful woman is it a sin? Yes! Same with being homosexual. Is it a sin to be a homosexual? No. Is it a sin to act upon the lusts of homosexuality? Yes! Just as a heterosexual lust for that woman. Oh and to show that I am not someone just speaking an opinion, I have a very close friend who is like a brother who is homosexual and was raised in a good christian home, with terrific christian parents, know what the Bible says, believes he is going to Hell, because he acts upon his lusts. Do I love anyless because of his lifestyle? No! Do I agree with it? No! Do I agree with his conclusion that he is going to hell if he doesn't change his ways, (which he is not trying to even)? Yes! I pray for him everyday, which is all I can do. Homosexuality is not right! Does the Bible say homosexuality? Does it give a darn good example of it being wrong? Yes! Clear cut.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

It's right next to the verse that promotes, supports, and encourages people to post on internet forums.

Big difference between binary code and bi-sexuality.

(Etc., etc..)

 

[Polycarp_fan]

That is actually a silly question since "Children that have been raised within a Christian environment" do sin. The may "come out" as alcoholics, adulterers, thieves, etc. The hope of good parents is that their children will return to the ways they were taught. Sadly this does not always happen. I am of course assuming you mean sincere practicing Christian when you say Christian environment.

That children of good parents go astray is just about the theme of the entire Old Testament. The desire that God's people "return" to Him, is declared over and over again.

And, in very much the parent-child perspective.

The "I told you do so," aspect of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation is what irks so many that hate the Bible. It's also one of the things that have Christians so utterly hated by their adversaries.

 

[Andreusz]

Some of those who chose to be homosexual probably were convinced in their teen years by insignificant evidence; others may have been convinced later. Some may have had events happen earlier in their life than their teens that convinced them. From what little I have seen many homosexuals are either bisexual or go through a bisexual phase. [/quote]

Homosexuality is not a choice. The idea that it is a choice is a Christian myth, which gives the self-righteous an excuse to hate homosexuals.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

The following has occurred many times, Polycarp_fan, so I'll ask a question of you. Children that have been raised within a Christian environment have also 'come out' later in life as 'gays'. You know that as well as I do.

Question: how would YOU handle the situation if the above applied to one of your own children?

My children can not alter scripture. "The world" has many sick and evil aspects to it, and "anyone" can get caught up in the perversions and licentiousness of it. Who, or what, do you think I am, my perspective comes from reality.

"I have been a wayward child, I have acted out."

Ever heard the song from Nicole Grant "I will not be moved?" Listen to it. It is a cry of generation of debauched youth. Our current gay ways, has come to us from the hippy movement of the 60's, the "If it feels good do it," generation. Now these debauched people (the ones that survived the lascivious licentiousness are politicians and judges, and some are repentant Christians.

Remember, facts are important to me. I saw my children's sexual orientation at birth. None of them were born malformed. What they do with their bodies and with their minds, I can only pray and hope they will do with honor.

As you have rightfully noted, there is no same-gender sex acts promoted, appoved of, condoned or supported for Christians (or Israelites) anywhere in the Bible. That applies to my kids too. KC, you are not going to inflict gay culture onto and into the Church with your pals "or" my children.

I've heard your questions many times. It's in the gay debate tactics handbook I guess. Believe it or not, "I" think there are worse things than gay sex that a person (even a Christian) can choose to engage in. Not many, but there are.

It's when perversions and evil behavior become a pop culture fad and encouraged, that a Christian must take a stand. I would pray that my children choose the correct path. There is ONLY one, or Jesus is the wishy-washer liar that liberal and progressive and secularized theology says He is.

I oppose that as well.

And don't think Jesus has heard insults before. He did. He still does.

Jesus is the same today, yesterday and forever.

 

[darkshadow]

Some of those who chose to be homosexual probably were convinced in their teen years by insignificant evidence; others may have been convinced later. Some may have had events happen earlier in their life than their teens that convinced them. From what little I have seen many homosexuals are either bisexual or go through a bisexual phase. [/quote]

Homosexuality is not a choice. The idea that it is a choice is a Christian myth, which gives the self-righteous an excuse to hate homosexuals.

I have a question why would an atheist care what Christians are saying in a Christian Forum web site? Especially if you look through most of the posts you will see that there is no hate towards homosexuals.

 

[brightmorningstar]

The thread is about Biblical support for gay sex, not children raised in different ways, lets not get diverted from the topic

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Ooh, I'm beginning to like this game. Here's another:

The question is simple. Where is/are the passages, scriptures, or statements, in the Bible, from either the Old Testament (or rather, the Tanakh, if you like) or from the New Testament, that promotes, supports or encourages "anyone," to have discarded the 7th-day Sabbath given by God at Creation and to have initiated in its stead another man-made 'holy' day?

The answer, as the previous poster said, is "There are none."

You stay the course in comparing wrong things, or rather, things that are wrong, to promote homosexuality in the Church. That is a fascinating tact KC.

Savvy?

"Two wrongs don't make a right."

Remember kindergarten?

Have you ever read the Gospels? Wrongs must be repented of. I'm thinking that is your goal of the Sabbath. Although, I don't see how gathering in Churches on the first day of the week constitutes a violation of the Sabbath, I do applaud your conservative zeal for the truth of God's word.

 

[darkshadow]

Not to mention the fact that it is the only one of the Ten Commandments that Jesus did not reinstate. There is no Sabbath as it was in the Old Testament. We are to worship God and keep him close everyday. It was moved, however to Sunday for a couple reasons here are the 2 biggest. 1. Christ rose on Sunday. 2. The early church met on Sunday. Again though we are not under the OT Sabbath. But now how about we get back on topic of the thread.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Not to mention the fact that it is the only one of the Ten Commandments that Jesus did not reinstate. There is no Sabbath as it was in the Old Testament. We are to worship God and keep him close everyday. It was moved, however to Sunday for a couple reasons here are the 2 biggest. 1. Christ rose on Sunday. 2. The early church met on Sunday. Again though we are not under the OT Sabbath. But now how about we get back on topic of the thread.

No, no, I think KC's questioning IS on topic.

Jesus never altered Sabbath holiness. He never altered marriage. In fact he reiterated it in such an immutable fashion that anyone having sex before marriage, sex with someone other than their spouse, or same-gender sex are sinning and are sinners.

If we stay on KC's path, it will continue to highlight that Christians that preach repentance and forgiveness are doing what is right, and those that promote and encourage sin, are incredibly wrong, and in fact may indeed not be what they claim to be.

Jesus also taught that we are to look out for "wolves in sheeps clothing." That is a euphemism for a non or anti Christian, saying that they are a believer. Parables, or rather, preaching in metaphor and euphemism, is a great way of getting people to think, that actually can think. Jesus was also clear that there is wheat and there is chaff. That also appears to be a scientific fact. It is heartbreaking to contemplate the full aspect of the teachings of Jesus in many areas, but His heart was broken first, and he said ours would be too. But, we are to pray and hope for the best in all situations.

It is the very act of love to encourage people away from sin and sinning and for those that demand to promote sin and sinning to be opposed with all due diligence. It is the opposite of love to encourage sin and sinning, and even worse to redefine and alter what is sin just for pop culture and those that choose the secular over the Gospel.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Only to those who oppose it.

The anatomy of the human body opposes "homosexuality." Literally, figuratively and by observation, cause and effect. Genitalia points to " sexual" orientation.

Is science not important to you?

 

[Andreusz]

I have a question why would an atheist care what Christians are saying in a Christian Forum web site? Especially if you look through most of the posts you will see that there is no hate towards homosexuals.

I care because Christians are in the majority in the Western world, and what they think and decide affects my life and the lives of people like me. I would like to persuade Christians to be tolerant and generous, but in some cases (e.g. Sally Kern, Linda Harvey, Peter LaBarbera) this doesn't seem to be on the menu. A lot of people who post in these forums say things about gays that are just not true -- that we choose to be gay, that we recruit, that we don't feel love but only lust, that all gays are pederasts, that all gays are depraved and degenerate, and that all gays are extremely promiscuous and diseased. Some of the participants seem to be extremely unwilling to even try to understand our viewpoint, for example Polycarp_fan persists in wilfully misunderstanding what is meant by 'orientation', despite several people's having tried to explain the concept to him. I think the willingness to believe and persist in this misrepresentation is hatred -- or if it isn't hatred, then it will do till hatred comes along.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Andreusz,
I

I would like to persuade Christians to be tolerant and generous

Generous yes, not so sure Christians can be tolerant, we follow Jesus Christ.

A lot of people who post in these forums say things about gays that are just not true –

I would suggest that some posters say things about Christianity that is untrue as well. I think the idea is we explain why.

for example Polycarp_fan persists in wilfully misunderstanding what is meant by 'orientation', despite several people's having tried to explain the concept to him.

I don’t agree with the concept either, people are tempted, I guess I was born an adulterous, thieving, lying, fornicator, so I dont see why some should be worried about homosexual attraction. Do you see what I mean?

 

[KCKID]

While I realize that this might be seen as being off-topic I can hardly ignore it. I'll be done in a couple of minutes anyway.

Not to mention the fact that it is the only one of the Ten Commandments that Jesus did not reinstate.

So, what you're saying then is that there are now only nine commandments? Don't you realize how silly that is?

There is no Sabbath as it was in the Old Testament. We are to worship God and keep him close everyday. It was moved, however to Sunday for a couple reasons

I'm sure that you have the scriptures handy that I'll be asking for . . .?

here are the 2 biggest. 1. Christ rose on Sunday.

Um ...okay. But what does that have to do with the Creation Sabbath? And where is that scripture telling us that the Sabbath was moved to Sunday?

2. The early church met on Sunday.

Whether they did or not is immaterial. They can meet on any day they wish. This has NOTHING to do with the Sabbath. One thing is clear. There is no way that the Apostles would be disobedient to a command of God. They kept the Sabbath while Jesus was alive and you can bet your boots they continued to keep it after His resurrection.

Again though we are not under the OT Sabbath.

Well, you are not God so I don't believe you. The Sabbath command was never revoked. And, once again you're saying that the Ten Commandments have now become the Nine Commandments? Do you not realize how unscriptural that is?

But now how about we get back on topic of the thread.

We ARE on topic. We're talking about the word of God, are we not?