Atheism and Theism

[PloverWing]

"The debate essentially comes down to this:

• If the universe is illogical and inconsistent then it is possible for it to be complete.
• If the universe is logical and consistent then it is incomplete.
• If the universe is incomplete, then it depends on something on the outside.

In other words, if the laws of mathematics and logic apply to the universe, then the universe has to have a metaphysical source. Atheism can only be true if the universe is irrational.

I want to press the quoted author to say what they mean when they say the universe is "logical" or "illogical". The Incompleteness Theorem is about formal systems. When we have a set of axioms and a set of rules of inference, we may want to know about the boundaries of what can and cannot be proved within that formal system.

But the universe isn't a formal system. Pieces of it can be described by formal symbolic logic, but the universe itself isn't a set of axioms. So I don't see how the Incompleteness Theorem can be applied to the universe.

What does the author mean when they say that the universe is "logical" or "illogical"?

 

[Rachel20]

What does the author mean when they say that the universe is "logical" or "illogical"?

Below are some links where the author explains. The first link contains the quote.

Godel's Incompleteness Theorem | Perry Marshall

Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem and God | Perry Marshall

 

[PloverWing]

Below are some links where the author explains. The first link contains the quote.

Godel's Incompleteness Theorem | Perry Marshall

Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem and God | Perry Marshall

Thanks for the links.

Now that I've read the articles, I'm not sure that Perry Marshall understands Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem. His formal statement of the theorem itself is fine, but he then goes on to paraphrase it in odd ways. Marshall says "Gödel proved that there are ALWAYS more things that are true than you can prove. Any system of logic or numbers that mathematicians ever came up with will always rest on at least a few unprovable assumptions." The first sentence is approximately true (though he's starting to get sloppy). The second sentence misses the point. Yes, axiomatic systems have axioms, but that's not what the incompleteness theorem is about.

He goes on to talk about inductive reasoning, and the uncertainty involved. The justification of inductive reasoning is an important philosophical question, but Gödel’s theorem isn't about induction at all.

His summary of the Church-Turing thesis in the sidebar is incorrect.

As Marshall goes on, his reasoning seems to be less and less coherent.

I agree with the highlighted point in the previous article, that the problem of suffering can be a barrier to belief in God, but I don't think Gödel, Church, or Turing help us to sort it out.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think concepts like political affiliation matter more than whether or not one is a theist or not. Even when dating/marriage is concerned.

A partnering of a liberal Christian with a liberal atheist seems like it would be more compatible than a partnering of a conservative Christian with a liberal Christian.

Political affiliations in the modern western world have alot more to do with attitudes and values, definitely.

 

[Rachel20]

Yes, axiomatic systems have axioms, but that's not what the incompleteness theorem is about.

The justification of inductive reasoning is an important philosophical question, but Gödel’s theorem isn't about induction at all.

Gödel made his discovery while attempting to finish Hilbert's program. So it's all about axiomatic systems!

Hilbert’s Program (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

I agree with the highlighted point in the previous article, that the problem of suffering can be a barrier to belief in God, but I don't think Gödel, Church, or Turing help us to sort it out.

I think it was his intent to give a partial explanation why many atheists view the universe as irrational, not solve the problem of suffering.

 

[AV1611VET]

Recently I was in a discussion about how different the beliefs held by atheism and theism are. I honestly don't think the beliefs held by the two are vastly different, what are the major belief differences between the two?

The Bible.