As Obedient Children

[Mr. M]

1 Peter 1:
13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon
the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance;
15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

Beginning with the posted text, what is the working of obedience in the child of God,
in the relationship with the Lord by the promised Holy Spirit?

What is the difference between the grace that is to be at the Revelation of Jesus Christ,
and the grace that brings salvation by which we first believe?

Considering Peter's closing words:
2 Peter 3:
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him
in peace, without spot and blameless;
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul,
according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand,
which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness,
being led away with the error of the wicked;
18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

Did Peter speak prophetically to this present generation concerning those who twist the teachings of Paul?

 

[Mr. M]

Apologies for accidentally posting before the OP was complete.

 

[Grip Docility]

1 Peter 1:
13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon
the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance;
15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

Beginning with the posted text, what is the working of obedience in the child of God,
in the relationship with the Lord by the promised Holy Spirit?

What is the difference between the grace that is to be at the Revelation of Jesus Christ,
and the grace that brings salvation by which we first believe?

Considering Peter's closing words:
2 Peter 3:
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him
in peace, without spot and blameless;
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul,
according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand,
which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness,
being led away with the error of the wicked;
18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

Did Peter speak prophetically to this present generation concerning those who twist the teachings of Paul?

This is a powerful and difficult matter for me, because I find that there are two sides to twisting Paul. One side, erases "Repentance" altogether, while the other side systematically creates 1000 and 1 ways to shoehorn requirements into the matter of "The sufficiency of Jesus Christ's DBR".

I imagine that the Devil was pretty angry at what Jesus accomplished and has set out to pollute it as soon as he realized what Jesus had done. 2000 years is a long time to twist Paul. I would say that it was being done from the moment the ink on Paul's written epistles dried, but the Devil has become so much more efficient at it, in these current times.

 

[RandyPNW]

1 Peter 1:
13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon
the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance;
15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

Beginning with the posted text, what is the working of obedience in the child of God,
in the relationship with the Lord by the promised Holy Spirit?

What is the difference between the grace that is to be at the Revelation of Jesus Christ,
and the grace that brings salvation by which we first believe?

Considering Peter's closing words:
2 Peter 3:
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him
in peace, without spot and blameless;
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul,
according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand,
which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness,
being led away with the error of the wicked;
18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

Did Peter speak prophetically to this present generation concerning those who twist the teachings of Paul?

I wouldn't doubt that the spirit of prophecy was on Paul, applying these things to all generations of Christians in the present age. For me, the twisting of the Scriptures has to do with liberal Christians who deny the power of God, which is the ability of God to transform our lives to be like that of Christ.

I've discovered, in my studies, that the opposition to Christianity throughout the ages has come from people who wanted to deny that there is such a thing as a "New Nature" in Christ. They want to believe that any supposed "spiritual change" is artificial and hypocritical, assuming that people are merely covering over their inward corruption with legal acts to be seen of men.

So this denial of the essential "spiritual change" Christ brings to those who are Born Again is the problem of "twisting Paul's teachings." They want to believe that Paul just advocates for "cleansing the outward part of the cup," and never really can call for a true change within. That, or they think Paul was under a delusion, thinking that change was possible where it really isn't.

"Grace," to me, is just the "free gift" aspect of the New Nature we've been given in Christ, enabling us to keep God's word and to actually allow our character to change along with our deeds. This is the element of being Born Again that is essential to determine that we really have been Born Again--the element of character change indicating that we don't just do kind things, but we also *become kind people.*

Grace, then, gives us this free of charge, but does not do the deeds for us. We have to agree to do what is consistent with our New Nature, being responsible with the gift that we've been given.

In your example, here's what we actually are required to *do*--in partnership with Christ, of course:
"Gird up your loins and be holy in all of your conduct."

The "grace" that we're waiting for at Christ's Coming is our resurrection to immortality--an immortal existence. This also comes as a free gift to those who enter into contract with Christ to adopt his new spiritual nature. Amen!

 

[Grip Docility]

1 Peter 1:
13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon
the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance;
15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

Beginning with the posted text, what is the working of obedience in the child of God,
in the relationship with the Lord by the promised Holy Spirit?

What is the difference between the grace that is to be at the Revelation of Jesus Christ,
and the grace that brings salvation by which we first believe?

Considering Peter's closing words:
2 Peter 3:
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him
in peace, without spot and blameless;
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul,
according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand,
which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness,
being led away with the error of the wicked;
18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

Did Peter speak prophetically to this present generation concerning those who twist the teachings of Paul?

Okay, Paul is indeed "Difficult to read". My summary understanding of "Twisting Paul", in your context... has to do with the current state of blatant sin, in America... and the literal political schisms within the churches, today. Would this be correct?

 

[Mr. M]

Okay, Paul is indeed "Difficult to read". My summary understanding of "Twisting Paul", in your context... has to do with the current state of blatant sin, in America... and the literal political skims within the churches, today. Would this be correct?

I have been duly informed that there is no necessity for saints to be "obedient children".
While there is blatant sin, there is also subtle disobedience by neglect of Paul, and the
apostolic doctrines in general. Note the question proposed here:
Hebrews 4:
1 Therefore, we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.
2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience
received a just retribution,
3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord,
and was confirmed to us by those who heard,
4 God also bears witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles,
and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

 

[Grip Docility]

I have been duly informed that there is no necessity for saints to be "obedient children".
While there is blatant sin, there is also subtle disobedience by neglect of Paul, and the
apostolic doctrines in general. Note the question proposed here:
Hebrews 4:
1 Therefore, we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.
2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience
received a just retribution,
3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord,
and was confirmed to us by those who heard,
4 God also bears witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles,
and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

I have a burden on this matter. It's extremely easy to focus on the "Act Better" stuff. It's all good and well to encourage people not to make a mess of their lives... However... Paul didn't really suffer at the hands of "sinners", did he? Paul suffered at the hands of the collaboration of the Jewish body that "unbelieved" that worked in conjunction with the Roman authorities. He held the coats for the men that stoned Steven.

I don't remember a letter where Paul hoped that the Gentile sinners would completely cut their reproduction organs off. Is that in there? Did I miss it?

I don't remember Jesus blasting Sinners.... is that in there? I do remember Matthew 23.

See, it feels all yummy to claim my rotten, disgusting filthy flesh is improving, as I work extra super duper hard in conjunction with the Holy Spirit... but then... BOASTING COMES!

I'm not sure if this will strike you as in opposition to you, or that you will understand what I am saying. I believe in the goodness of doing good things and growing in the Holy Spirit... but... Paul carries a 200 lb pole towards Judaizes and a 1 oz stick towards sinners, just like Jesus did.

Please forgive me, but I believe you are spiritually mature enough to have this discussion with me and I am all too eager to do the will of Jesus.

Well, that's my heart on the matter and I've shared it with you, which gives you the right to dialogue back. I'm not thin skinned. I look forward to your reply, for better or for worse.

 

[Mr. M]

I have a burden on this matter. It's extremely easy to focus on the "Act Better" stuff. It's all good and well to encourage people not to make a mess of their lives... However... Paul didn't really suffer at the hands of "sinners", did he? Paul suffered at the hands of the collaboration of the Jewish body that "unbelieved" that worked in conjunction with the Roman authorities. He held the coats for the men that stoned Steven.

I don't remember a letter where Paul hoped that the Gentile sinners would completely cut their reproduction organs off. Is that in there? Did I miss it?

I don't remember Jesus blasting Sinners.... is that in there? I do remember Matthew 23.

See, it feels all yummy to claim my rotten, disgusting filthy flesh is improving, as I work extra super duper hard in conjunction with the Holy Spirit... but then... BOASTING COMES!

I'm not sure if this will strike you as in opposition to you, or that you will understand what I am saying. I believe in the goodness of doing good things and growing in the Holy Spirit... but... Paul carries a 200 lb pole towards Judaizes and a 1 oz stick towards sinners, just like Jesus did.

Please forgive me, but I believe you are spiritually mature enough to have this discussion with me and I am all too eager to do the will of Jesus.

Well, that's my heart on the matter and I've shared it with you, which gives you the right to dialogue back. I'm not thin skinned. I look forward to your reply, for better or for worse.

Since I have in no way presented "good deeds" doctrine, I need not answer to that, as it is time worn.
The issue of obedience to the Spirit begins with the believer's willingness to receive correction.
This is the covenant of the sure mercies of David.
2 Samuel 7:
14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity,
I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men.
15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you.

An undisciplined child by scripture is illegitimate.
Hebrews 12:
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself,
lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.
4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin.
5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons;
for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers,
then you are illegitimate and not sons.

This is the most fundamental obedience.
There are other aspects to Christian growth in a maturing relationship
with the Lord by the Spirit. I will leave off at discipline for now.

 

[Grip Docility]

Since I have in no way presented "good deeds" doctrine, I need not answer to that, as it is time worn.
The issue of obedience to the Spirit begins with the believer's willingness to receive correction.
This is the covenant of the sure mercies of David.
2 Samuel 7:
14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity,
I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men.
15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you.

An undisciplined child by scripture is illegitimate.
Hebrews 12:
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself,
lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.
4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin.
5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons;
for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers,
then you are illegitimate and not sons.

This is the most fundamental obedience.
There are other aspects to Christian growth in a maturing relationship
with the Lord by the Spirit. I will leave off at discipline for now.

Allow me to be extra super duper blunt. Satan has tried to water down the effectiveness of the Gospel. I am in all agreement with what you are saying, as long as it isn't the beginnings of "Gee, Christians today are fake".

Holiness doctrine is good and well... but to be honest.... I wish there were more evangelists out there that make the body they speak to recognize what worms we all are, in comparison to Jesus... to the point where tears, mortification and hardcore repentance crept up.

We are fat, spoiled and broken by the dumbest of divisions in America, within the Body.

I ask you a genuine question, to attempt to understand your direction...

Salvation is by Faith (Period) or Salvation is by Faith + (What?)

Also, thank you for being patient with me. You are only quoting scripture, which I appreciate. I'm just having difficulty with the fact that Grace is such a watered down matter, today... and I don't think that it's you doing it.

I see you quoting more meaty scripture and assume that you are Spiritually capable of understanding my frustration... and maybe helping me sort it out. I trust God to do that, but it is pleasant to be able to dialogue with fellow Believers in Jesus.

 

[Mr. M]

Salvation is by Faith (Period) or Salvation is by Faith + (What?)

Also, thank you for being patient with me.

Let's go with what Paul states here:
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you,
brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you
to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Those who desire Salvation by faith (period) without obedience that results in faithfulness
are following a different Gospel, and I will not spend another minute of my life debating otherwise.
Only an "easy believe-ism" separates salvation from sanctification. Salvation is all these things.
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom,
and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

The Holy Spirit does not sanctify disobedient children.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is Resurrection and Judgment.
To neglect so great a salvation is to neglect preaching
judgment to come, though it is a part of every creed.
How we live in Christ matters. I am not condemning anyone to hell,
As Paul said, true discipleship is the desire to present every believer
holy, unblameable, and unreproveable in His sight.
I am well aware there are those who consider this a "works salvation".
The apostolic doctrine calls it the Father's Will and Purpose.


2 Timothy 1:
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

Grace without purpose is easily lead astray.

Hebrews 4:
1 Therefore, we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.

 

[Grip Docility]

Let's go with what Paul states here:
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you,
brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you
to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Those who desire Salvation by faith (period) without obedience that results in faithfulness
are following a different Gospel, and I will not spend another minute of my life debating otherwise.
Only an "easy believe-ism" separates salvation from sanctification. Salvation is all these things.
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom,
and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

The Holy Spirit does not sanctify disobedient children.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is Resurrection and Judgment.
To neglect so great a salvation is to neglect preaching
judgment to come, though it is a part of every creed.
How we live in Christ matters. I am not condemning anyone to hell,
As Paul said, true discipleship is the desire to present every believer
holy, unblameable, and unreproveable in His sight.
I am well aware there are those who consider this a "works salvation".
The apostolic doctrine calls it the Father's Will and Purpose.


2 Timothy 1:
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

Grace without purpose is easily lead astray.

Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8 For you have been delivered by grace through trusting, and even this is not your accomplishment but God’s gift. 9 You were not delivered by your own actions; therefore no one should boast. 10 For we are of God’s making, created in union with the Messiah Yeshua for a life of good actions already prepared by God for us to do.

"Easy Believism" That Free Gift Cost Jesus Christ, who's very NAME I am unworthy to speak, EVERYTHING! He DIED so that the HOPELESS HAD HOPE. That Blood that HE spilt eradicated condemnation of the Law. The work of the Spirit is JUST THAT. I will leave this thread now. You Charge the Result of His work unto the Believer. This worthless, no good, only saved by His Grace sinner will now show himself to the door. I'm sorry I got dirt on your clean floor.

Glad we had this talk. Thank you.

 

[Mr. M]

Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

No one said anything about the book of the Law.
Obedience to the Spirit is the Law of the Spirit of Life,
which you must live, as the Way, and the Truth, and the Life.
Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things,
and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

10 For we are of God’s making, created in union with the Messiah Yeshua for a life of good actions already prepared by God for us to do.

What might those be? The Holy Spirit leads us into ALL TRUTH.
Do you obey the Spirit or not?
Romans 16:
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets,
according to the commandment of the everlasting God,
made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

"Easy Believism" That Free Gift Cost Jesus Christ, who's very NAME I am unworthy to speak, EVERYTHING! He DIED so that the HOPELESS HAD HOPE. That Blood that HE spilt eradicated condemnation of the Law. The work of the Spirit is JUST THAT. I will leave this thread now. You Charge the Result of His work unto the Believer. This worthless, no good, only saved by His Grace sinner will now show himself to the door. I'm sorry I got dirt on your clean floor.

Glad we had this talk. Thank you.

Wow! You have no idea the floors I've laid face down on.
Let me know when you have served the Lord,
and share your testimony any time.
Thank you, for your heavy dose of condescension.
Luke 17:
10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘
We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’ ”
Or do nothing, the choice is yours.
Did you really think you could come on a thread that teaches sound apostolic
doctrine about abiding in the Spirit to live a life that is pleasing to God with this
tired old, "salvation by faith means doing nothing", as if we are adding something
to the Gospel. How preposterous!
2 Peter 1
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge,
6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,
7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.
When Did Love Become Optional???
8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor
unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness,
and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure,
for if you do these things you will never stumble;
11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting
kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Revelation 17:
14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them,
for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him
are called, chosen, and faithful.”

Thank You for leaving, I have no problem with cleaning up your off-topic mess.