Are there limits to what healing we can receive?

[ARBITER01]

Bingo!

Man tries to do it their own way, and their own way says I need more church programs and events that will bring people into the house of God. The problem with that approach is when the people stop being entertained they either vote out the current leadership or they leave the church for the next thing.

The power of God is what gets people to stay, nothing can replace it or replicate it.

Instead of more programs and events, churches (in my opinion) should hold more prayer meetings and have time to corporately seek the Lord and His power/blessing.

Time is the enemy of holiness.

If we are not placing our time into assembling together and seeking The Lord, then we will quickly become weak. It's The Holy Spirit that draws people there.

Anymore it's hard to get people to realize that holiness is paramount and the flesh must be put under.

 

[lanceleo]

Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Any sick people in heaven?

Please explain why Paul and Timothy were suffering from infirmities.

Galatians 4:13
King James Version
13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.

1 Timothy 5:23
King James Version
23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Please explain why Paul and Timothy were suffering from infirmities.

Galatians 4:13
King James Version
13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.

1 Timothy 5:23
King James Version
23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

It is God's will that all be saved, but not all will be saved. What's your point?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

All I am saying that in spite of all the talk, teaching, motivational preaching to increase people's faith, nothing is working. This is not about me. I'm just the whistle blower. The so called healing ministry is nothing but talk. Why is that?

But it's not "nothing but talk". It might be different than what you expect it to look like, but it doesn't mean it's "nothing but talk". It's common practice for doubters to use charlatans, aka wolves in sheeps clothing, to bring disrepute upon the gospel and the practice of the kingdom. But that doesn't prove anything other than, there are false teachers. But the scriptures themselves bear witness that false teachers exist, Jesus warned about that. Jesus even warned there would be people who claimed to do miracles in His name, but were excluded from the Kingdom. Again, it doesn't mean that healings don't happen or have stopped.

Why are we even having this talk in this sub? Seriously, every single.one of us should believe, firmly and resolutely that healings happen and should be expected. Jesus said that healing the sick and casting out demons would be signs of the Kingdom. Not my words, His. So stop doubting and believe (without a doctor's note)

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Please explain why Paul and Timothy were suffering from infirmities.

Galatians 4:13
King James Version
13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.

1 Timothy 5:23
King James Version
23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Why wouldn't they? The people of that day were no different from the people of this day.
Why do believers today suffer from infirmities? Same answers.
Actually, this confirms the reality of our experience.
Paul suffered at the hands of a messenger of satan sent to stir up persecution against him because of pride.
The Corinthian Christians suffered sickness and weakness and even died young because they failed to discern the Lord's body.
The people of Jesus' hometown suffered because they did not have faith due to their familiarity with Him.
Paul said that those who sow destruction in the flesh will reap destruction in the flesh.
We could go on and on.
None of this contradicts what God said about healing and health.
Just because a person lived in Bible times does not mean they were perfect and had lives better or worse than ours. We, like they, struggle with the flesh, faith, the devil, and "time and circumstance."
Nobody here or anywhere else that I have heard is saying this is automatic, or that Christians do not struggle. That, in fact, is the norm.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Come on folks...

Back to the real world.

Please listen to this right through.

While we pontificate there are souls crying out for salvation.

And note the miraculous testimony of tumours in the liver that completely vanished.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Again, it's not GOD, it's the people.

How many people know they need to seek something from GOD beyond getting filled with The Spirit and having the gifts? None of them. How many of them know anything really about the anointing? None of them. They think it is something floating around in the atmosphere waiting to attack one of them every so often. People have written books on the subject that never tell you what it is, because they don't know themselves.

It's a complete lack of knowledge on the subject, and a complete lack of desire to know anything about it either. So we get what we have currently.

If you don't ask you won't receive. If you don't seek you won't find.

People are too tied up with church activities instead of drawing close to The Lord. Time is the enemy of holiness.

I think that Paul had it pretty well right when he told Timothy that many had departed from sound doctrine and were taking on fables. Paul gave another clue when he told the Corinthians and many were weak, sick and dying prematurely because they were not discerning the Lord's supper, and eating and drinking damnation to themselves. The damnation is not losing their salvation, but judgment in this life. When we look through what Jesus said to the Seven churches in Revelation. we get more clues about where the problem lies. The only church that got full approval from the Lord was the church at Philadelphia. All the others had serious faults requiring repentance. It is interesting that none of those churches exist today. When we consider the faults of each of those churches we see direct parallels with many, if not all of our churches today.

Also, the Scripture says that before the end, there will be a general falling away, so much so that when Jesus comes, will He find faith in the earth? We are also seeing Jesus' prophecy coming true about the rise of false prophets, especially when we observed all the prophets who predicted Donald Trump winning the last election were embarrassingly wrong. Also we see Youtube videos of so called prophets talking just word salads that mean nothing and yet multitudes are believing those prophecies,

When we consider all this, it is no surprise that we don't see the widespread routine manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit among the churches. We can't blame Cessationism for it. We have to look at the state of the church and the general falling away from the sound doctrine of the Gospel of Christ is glaringly evident.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

But it's not "nothing but talk". It might be different than what you expect it to look like, but it doesn't mean it's "nothing but talk". It's common practice for doubters to use charlatans, aka wolves in sheeps clothing, to bring disrepute upon the gospel and the practice of the kingdom. But that doesn't prove anything other than, there are false teachers. But the scriptures themselves bear witness that false teachers exist, Jesus warned about that. Jesus even warned there would be people who claimed to do miracles in His name, but were excluded from the Kingdom. Again, it doesn't mean that healings don't happen or have stopped.

Why are we even having this talk in this sub? Seriously, every single.one of us should believe, firmly and resolutely that healings happen and should be expected. Jesus said that healing the sick and casting out demons would be signs of the Kingdom. Not my words, His. So stop doubting and believe (without a doctor's note)

What is letting us all down concerning the manifestation of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit is the general state of the church. When we study what Jesus said to the Seven churches in Revelation we see that six of those churches had serious faults which required repentance. Note that those churches no longer exist possibly because they did not heed the Lord's instructions to repent. When we see the faults of those churches, we see parallels with our modern churches. We also see what Paul said to Timothy, that many have departed from sound doctrine and taking up fables instead. Connected with this we see that most churches are doing things that are not found anywhere in the New Testament. The Lord's supper has become a ritual and most have little idea of what it means. This is the failure to discern the body and blood of the Lord that Paul said to the Corinthians. This is why many were weak, sickly, and prematurely dying. If you asked the normal church member what the Lord's Supper is all about, they wouldn't be able to tell you.

So, as the church is riddled with Post Modern Liberalism, Ritual and Ceremony, Progressive Christianity, false prophecy, healing conferences that don't heal anyone, Bible teachers saying that we are gods, and that God does what we want Him to do, wealth and prosperity as signs of God's favour, preachers filling stadiums with motivational speaking about how we can be better people, ignoring the basics of the Gospel of Christ, we see the clues why the supernatural gifts are being held back.

There is a Scripture in the Old Testament where God says that He is weary of all the ceremonies and sacrifices when the hearts of the people are far from Him. Perhaps the Holy Spirit is weary of all our church services, involving man centred programmes, rituals, ceremonies, sermons, business style models, etc.

So even though there are individual, faithful believers who are genuinely seeking God for more of the Holy Spirit to be able to manifest the gifts for the building up of the body of Christ, it seems that the rug is constantly pulled out from under them by those who although religious, are satisfied with the man-oriented church activities rather than really getting to grips with God to have more of the Holy Spirit's involvement. All we have to see is what most seminaries are teaching those who are training for ministry.

 

[Guojing]

The fact remains: There seems to be a disparity between interpretation of Scripture that supports routine healing through prayer, and the healing not happening. Until the disparity is resolved, all there remains is just empty talk.

So wouldn't it be easier to just change one variable instead of what you are doing, which is changing two?

Direct promises of salvation = God is going to save so long as an unbeliever believe.
No direct promises of healing = God may or may not heal a believer, even if the latter believes, depending on his sovereign will.

In both cases, whether churches/believers are carnal or not plays no role.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So would it easier to just change one variable instead of what you are doing, which is changing two?

Direct promises of salvation = God is going to save so long as an unbeliever believe.
No direct promises of healing = God may or may not heal a believer, even if the latter believers, depending on his sovereign will.

In both cases, whether churches/believers are carnal or not plays no role.

As you can see from my recent posts, the problem I see is in the general state of the church. In most cases, the Holy Spirit is grieved at what is happening, with departure from sound doctrine, relying on ritual and ceremony, and a general lack of purity and holiness among church members.

I believe that the answer is to ditch the man-made structures and organisation, stop spending thousand of dollars on maintaining buildings and programmes, and get right back to where the disciples were at the beginning of Acts when they were in the upper room waiting on God for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. They didn't try to set up a "Christian" club, or have organised ritualistic, ceremonial services. All they did was to wait on God in prayer in obedience to what Jesus told them, "Wait in Jerusalem until you are empowered from on high". So they waited for as long as it took, and finally, the Holy Spirit came, and the rest is history.

I believe that the church in general has become so corrupted by fables, traditions, humanist thinking, ritual and ceremony, factions, etc., that the only answer is to ditch the lot, sell the church buildings to community groups, and to gather in private homes to just wait on God for a general "reboot" of the Christian faith, based on the sound doctrine of the Gospel.

What this will mean is a sharp division between the religious who want to continue as they are, and the true believers who want to restart with prayer and waiting on God for what He wants to do with them. What will result is an "official" apostate church, and an "underground" true fellowship of believers who are fully committed to Christ. In that fellowship, we will see a powerful re-emerging of the supernatural gifts, because those fellowships will be where God wants them to be, uncorrupted by the world, humanism and false religion.

 

[Guojing]

As you can see from my recent posts, the problem I see is in the general state of the church. In most cases, the Holy Spirit is grieved at what is happening, with departure from sound doctrine, relying on ritual and ceremony, and a general lack of purity and holiness among church members.

But as I said, if all that you have describe has zero impact on whether God wants to save or not, why should it affect him wanting to heal?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

But as I said, if all that you have describe has zero impact on whether God wants to save or not, why should it affect him wanting to heal?

When the Holy Spirit is quenched or grieved, people don't get saved or healed. God is not willing that any should perish, but multitudes will, because of their unbelief.

 

[Guojing]

When the Holy Spirit is quenched or grieved, people don't get saved or healed. God is not willing that any should perish, but multitudes will, because of their unbelief.

Again, avoid changing 2 variables at the same time.

do you still believe that, with direct promises of salvation = God is going to save so long as an unbeliever believes?

 

[Bobber]

How many times did Jesus refuse to heal someone? Jesus is God. That's how many times God refuses to heal now. Our systemic unbelief is what disconnects us from God's power. How many times did Jesus rebuke the disciples for their unbelief? What prevented Him from ministering in His own town? The church has elevated that same kind of unbelief to some sort of dark virtue.

You're not allowed to bring up scriptural reasons why the Bible teaches some may not be healed. There are reasons outlined in scripture which means we don't tell people as any absolute why they weren't personally healed but we all to teach the possible reasons as outlined in scripture.

 

[Bobber]

The thought that comes to my mind on this subject is how terrible it is when someone is not healed and then they are told that they were not healed because of their lack of faith. That has to be about as foolish and unchristian as anyone can be, it makes me so upset when I hear someone make that comment it is just pain cruel to do that to someone who is already suffering. God has a good reason for what He does or fails to do.

I'd dial that back somewhat. I'd say we shouldn't really say to one this is the absolute reason why you weren't healed. That's not for me to actually define and that's between you and God HOWEVER we are told to teach things like James 1 which states if one wavers don't think they shall receive anything from the Lord. If it would be wrong for us to teach that then it would have to be wrong for James to teach it.

Also Paul the Apostille EVEN told us the reason why MANY are not healed and one can read the reason why in 1 Cor 11:28. He didn't say ALL for that reason but MANY. We can say that's the Holy Spirit talking all ready telling us why. So we teach the word of God we tell people to pray and seek God and ask is there any thing they're missing on how to connect to healing. Some people WILL NOT entertain the notion to do that. If they prayed THAT IT.....if it didn't happen it must not have been God's will. I can show number of scripture which demonstrate that's not necessarily true at all.

 

[Bobber]

What I don't say is that God's word isn't true. That is no help to them.

Someone very close to me died of cancer. She believed to her last breath that God was going to heal her. That doesn't negate God's word. He wants to heal us, but the naysayers shout louder, and it plants doubt in our minds and too often our hearts.

They just can't get over that they may pray for healing and when they're not healed.....NO WAY they did something wrong. Wasn't the case with Jesus and his Apostles though.

And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying, 15Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. 16And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. 17Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. 18And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.19Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? 20And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. 21Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. Matt 17: 14,21

 

[Guojing]

They just can't get over that they may pray for healing and when they're not healed.....NO WAY they did something wrong.

Out of curiosity, will you say that to someone like Nick Vujicic?

 

[lanceleo]

Why wouldn't they? The people of that day were no different from the people of this day.
Why do believers today suffer from infirmities? Same answers.
Actually, this confirms the reality of our experience.
Paul suffered at the hands of a messenger of satan sent to stir up persecution against him because of pride.
The Corinthian Christians suffered sickness and weakness and even died young because they failed to discern the Lord's body.
The people of Jesus' hometown suffered because they did not have faith due to their familiarity with Him.
Paul said that those who sow destruction in the flesh will reap destruction in the flesh.
We could go on and on.
None of this contradicts what God said about healing and health.
Just because a person lived in Bible times does not mean they were perfect and had lives better or worse than ours. We, like they, struggle with the flesh, faith, the devil, and "time and circumstance."
Nobody here or anywhere else that I have heard is saying this is automatic, or that Christians do not struggle. That, in fact, is the norm.

Earlier you said

"Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Any sick people in heaven?"

Aren't you implying there won't be any sick believers on earth? Why are you changing your tune now?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Earlier you said

"Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Any sick people in heaven?"

Aren't you implying there won't be any sick believers on earth? Why are you changing your tune now?

Sorry, you must have misunderstood.
I never implied that and have never thought of it.
Jesus just told us to pray that way.
He told us to pray that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Unfortunately, many people do not believe Him and so refuse to pray that way.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Again, avoid changing 2 variables at the same time.

do you still believe that, with direct promises of salvation = God is going to save so long as an unbeliever believes?

John 3:16 is quite clear: "God so loved the world that He sent His only Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but will have eternal life.

Of course, the definition of "believe" here is putting one's full trust in and dependence on Christ. Not just a mental agreement that Christ exists and is the Son of God.