Are Non Believers Lower In Moral Character Than Christians?

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Title: ARE NON BELIEVERS LOWER IN MORAL CHARACTER THAN CHRISTIANS?

1. Subject: Are non-Christians lower in moral character than Christians ?

2. will argue the affirmative, that is that non Christians are lower in moral character than Christians are. bhsmte will argue against this position.

3.There will be three posts each (six posts total).

4. The posts will be alternating with TheyCallMeDavid making the opening post.

5. Time limit between posts will be one week from moderator approval of the post.

6. The maximum length for each post will be 5000 words for each post in a round.

7. Quotes and outside references are allowed. Please note that all quotes will fall under the 20% copyright rule.

8. Tentative start date: March 1st. 2014 (or sooner).

Peanut Gallery for this thread may be found here: ARE NON BELIEVERS LOWER IN MORAL CHARACTER THAN CHRISTIANS? Peanut Gallery.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

First, id like to thank BHSMTE for wanting to investigate this topic closer. It first came up during a cordial exchange about whether Public Schools crank out People of less moral character than Christian Home Schooling does. While the Debate Topic indicates NON Christians versus Christians...it will be primarily Atheists that I will be examining as that is what the Scientific Studies consider .. and to which BHSMTE takes issue with. I have a total of 5 or 6 fairly brief Scientific Studies which I will present for discussion so ill present 2 Studies for each of my 3 posts that im allowed . After each of BHSMTE's replies (except the very last one since his 3rd post concludes the Debate), I will offer a brief counter-rebuttal before moving onto the next Study. These Scientific Studies were conducted by SECULAR Sources including Polls that were taken ; while the results of the Study may appear on a dedicated Christian Site, it is not to be mistaken that the Study/Poll is therefore a biased Christian one -- the Site is simply reporting the Findings done by Secular non biased Testing procedures. Some of these were conducted by the notable Barna Institute as well as major Non-Christian Universities in the USA and Canada. The protocol details of the Study are included for each .

Before I get underway with the first 2 Studies for consideration, I think it would behoove Us to correctly define what A TRUE Christian (sometimes known by Evangelical and Fundamentalist labels) is according to the Bible which ALL true Christians make their ultimate truth Source ; please note that I used the word 'true' versus the pseudo type professed 'Christian' that the Bible makes reference to and which is plentiful in Societies around the world , yet the Bible (thus God) does not recognize as a true saved Follower of Christ. I shall define both , in detail, for a better understanding :

1. A true Christian according to The Bible : A Person who has come to the place in his/her life of acknowledging they are a Sinner in need of a Divine Savior . They believe with their entire Being that Christ is the second Person of the Godhead sent to Earth to take on a Human Body whos plan was to globally pay for the sins of Mankind (present, past, and future) thru a vicarious death of crucifixion on a public Cross followed by a miraculous resurrection from the dead thereby proving who he claimed to be : The very Creator himself and Savior of Mankinds sins . The Individual applies this one time Sacrifice of Christ to his/her own sin account trusting that it was in fact totally sufficient to pay for all of ones many accumulated sins . In an act of great gratitude and desire to now live a life that is pleasing to God , this Person starts to surrender to the Lordship and Authority of Christ with clear evidence of abandonment of any current Lifestyle Sins which are not of God....in addition to cooperating with the very power of God for a very real distinct inward character change that results in outward serving of God and Others . The 'Fruits' of this person are often readily seen as greater expressions and acts of love, joy, peace, kindness, patience, goodness, honesty, moral, ethical, etc... in short , a character transformation the Bible and Christ referred to as a Born Again experience ...and what Critics often refer to as 'An amazing Spiritual Experience' .... often very radical in essence versus how the Person was prior to receiving Christ . AKA : A new Creation in Christ , under a more practical term. This is not to say that there is now perfection in such an Individual, as their sin nature still remains and they will still make mistakes/sin but hopefully less and less as the real power of God becomes more manifest in their life. This Person is guaranteed forgiveness of all sins with the sure expectation of going to heaven where the Creator abides, for all of eternity with an existence and joy unspeakable. It is available to all People on Earth, if they want it and if their Pride of wanting to be their own Authority is traded for Gods loving Authority in Ones life.

2. The Psuedo ('said-faith' only) Christian would be the same as above, with the exception that (over time) there was no inward transformation resulting in marked outward change / the Individual either slowly or quickly returned to Lifestyles that would be unpleasing to God / Christ was not fully surrendered to / and the Fruits evident in this Persons life became different than that of the True Christian Counterpart . In short, there was no evidence that a true life changing receiving of Christ as Lord and King took place at all (or, only for a short time , if any) . Thus, the Person has not relinquished his Authority over to Christ and still keeps himself on the throne of his own life .



Christ himself said (paraphrased) : ' You will know those who follow me based on their good Fruits...and likewise Bad Fruits for those who didn't follow me ' which would include the pseudo Christian and some other People Groups. Now...while this declaration may strike some as being 'self righteous' of Myself ... it is not since Christ himself declared this would be the case / the Bible confirms it over and over again / Others can see it in a truly Born Again Christian / God wants us to enjoy living above reproach, and the Person himself can see the distinct inward change that has (and is) occurring . In addition, the Scientific Studies I will present clearly confirm that the moral character of true Christians far exceed that of their Atheist Counterparts ---- again, performed by unbiased secular Sources .



I make this distinction because in the Studies, they refer to the true genuine Christian with character/behavior/actions/talk that coincides with this .



A point id like to make is : I believe it is possible for an Atheist to be moral and ethical without wanting to believe in God and im sure that this is practiced among this specific People Group daily ; but I do not believe it becomes a necessity or requirement for an Atheist to do due to atheistic ideologies including no absolute moral laws which they should abide by . In other words, behavior , actions, speech , motives, morality, ethics being maintained, etc.... become optional ., and I believe what we see occurring in society confirms this fact. Fortunately, there is way out of doing life this way and it comes by the transforming power of Christ living in ones Soul....a change that only happens thru a personal relationship with God thru his Son as can be attested from the hardest of Criminals who have sought Christ as their King and personal Savior ; and a change that no psychology book or pulling up on ones own bootstraps could ever accomplish on a permanent basis.



I shall proceed to post the first 2 Scientific Studies, each quite brief in length, for discussion. Again, the posting of these independent Scientific Studies are not meant to be antagonistic on my end , and only for consideration.



___________________________________________________



The first Study was performed by the University of Lethbridge, Canada as follows : Are Atheists and Theists Morally Equivalent?



The second Study was performed in 2008 by The Barna Group as follows : Atheism Doesn't Lead to Immoral Behavior or Poor Ethics - Or Does It?







Dave

 

[bhsmte]

I anticipated this debate beginning on March 1st, so here I am with my first post.

Thanks to David for agreeing to discuss this important matter and I look forward to the opportunity.

I feel there is a wide misperception of the morality of non-believers which is demonstrated by polls taken that have asked believers to give a perception on the morality of non-believers. Typically, these polls state non-believers are less trustworthy and of lower morals than believers (Christians). Polls such as these are seriously flawed, because they are dealing with perceptions vs reality. Anyone can have a personal perception about anyone at anytime, it does not make it true unless evidence can be presented to substantiate the perception with actual behavior. Much of this perception is based on ideological beliefs of Christians, who actually have internal motivation to belief they are of higher moral character, otherwise, why be a Christian?

In regards to David's attempts to define a "true Christian" this is an impossible task for the purpose of this debate. If you ask 10 different Christians what is required to be a true Christian, you may get 10 different responses. If you asked 10 Christians there interpretation of the bible, you may again, get 10 different responses, so it is an exercise in futility and no one person, is in a position to make the final determination. In fact, the rules of CF state, no one should ever question whether a person is a true Christian or not, if they claim to be, so I will use this same criteria when relying on studies etc. in comparing the moral behavior of those who claim to be non-believers and those who claim to be Christian.

Let's take a look at the two links David provided. Both are "self reporting survey's" in which actual behavior is not measured, but only what people are self reporting. The validity of such survey's can be prone to significant bias, as discussed in the science brain waves link below. The first "Atheism Doesn't lead to immoral behavior or does it". Would Christians have motivation to provide better responses because they want to appear to be better people than they actually are? Several of the questions asked of non-believers have question marks and many of the sources listed are actual biblical verses. This would not be considered reliable information, as it relates to actual moral behavior of Christians and non-believers.

The 2nd link; "Are Atheists and Theists Morally Equivalent", again, asks their opinion on what moral values are important, but in NO WAY relates this to actual behavior and as with the first link, is highly prone to bias.

In my 1st link (science and religion today) the factor of racism is evaluated in the study between Christians and non believers. The study indicates, that racist behaviors are more prevalent with Christian groups as opposed to non-believers and I quote a portion of the article in bold below:

They explained in their paper that this kind of religious racism partly reflects intergroup dynamics. That is, a strong religious in-group identity was associated with derogation of racial out-groups. Other races might be treated as out-groups because religion is practiced largely within race, because training in a religious in-group identity promotes general ethnocentrism, and because different others appear to be in competition for resources (Personality and Psychology Review).

This type of information supports the fact, that Christians are prone to less moral behavior as it relates to a vital issue in our society; racism, that only contributes in a negative manner to working together with our fellow human beings.

In my 2nd link (Huffington Post) and I quote a portion of the article in bold below:

In the first study, Saslow and her colleagues analyzed data from a national survey of more than 1,300 American adults taken in 2004. They found that compassionate attitudes were linked with how many generous behaviors a person was likely to report. But this link was strongest in people who were atheists or only slightly religious, compared with people who were more strongly religious.

Compassion for the needs of others, is a key component to what would be considered moral behavior and this study (and it is a legitimate study and not a self reporting poll) clearly demonstrates non-believers posses higher morals vs Christians in regards to compassion.

Lastly, and I will close my first post, both Christians and non-believers can be both moral and immoral, but overall, non-belief in a God has not been demonstrated with evidence to have negative consequences on a society whether in the United States, or some of the higher quality of living countries in other parts of the world.


http://www.sciencebrainwaves.com/uncategorized/the-dangers-of-self-report/

http://www.scienceandreligiontoday.com/2010/04/08/does-christianity-contribute-to-racism/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/01/religious-compassion-atheists-agnostics_n_1468006.html

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

I shall respond , categorically, to the Rebuttals presented here as well as show why Polls and Studies CAN be trusted because they are almost always based on reality and not Ones perception influenced by biasm . Then Ill conclude by posting another 2 independent secular based Scientific Studies further validating the fact that Atheists (in particular) have lower moral character in accordance to the reality of direct personal experience with Atheists (and NOT non-reality 'perception' as BSHTE suggests) :



1. My Opponent states that it is Believers (Christians) that have put forth a misconception regarding Atheists Moral Character in the Studies and Polls I submitted for consideration ; however, that is not so...for...the first Study I submitted is based on Atheists THEMSELVES scoring THEMSELVES in the 12 Moral Value categories listed . It is NOT Christians scoring Atheists --- likewise in this same Study, Christians score themselves also . This Study first asked 1600 Canadians what their view of God was, then asked them to rate the importance of each separate Moral Value they put into daily practice . Since each Responder is grading themselves, their response is based on ACTUALITY ---- suggesting how they live out each Moral Value by rating it high to low . You cant get any closer to reality than that.

In the second Study I provided, it is once again each Christian / Atheist (1003 people total) scoring SELF based on the previous weeks personal negative behavior (sin) which they partook in ; therefore, we are actually discovering each Groups willful participation in these which translates to how they view the gravity of immorality/lack of ethics . The results are very telling and once again serve to show what I assert as affirmative ----- that the results show that atheists/agnostics participate in morally questionable behaviors to a much greater degree than evangelical Christians ----- an average of nearly five times the frequency according to the Study.



2. My Opponent suggests that the definition of a true genuine Christian is based on a subjective consensus whereby if you ask 10 People you will get 10 different answers. However, I detailed what a true genuine Christian is in my opening Post based on an objective Source and the only Source that truly matters where this issue is concerned....the God-inspired Christian Bible . The criteria for becoming a true Christian is plainly listed in the Bible for all to consider and our Creator wasn't ambiguous regarding how to be saved and get to Heaven with him ; if a Person professes themselves a Christian or explains a different way of becoming One...this does not nullify Gods objective and actual way of becoming a Christian --- for absolute truth isn't based on Mans authority or what HE/SHE deems should be the way to God ...but it is based on Gods authority alone . Not only did I specifically indicate HOW One becomes a true genuine Christian , what it is solely based on, and how to receive that, .... but I also made mention of the Fruits occurring in a Christians Life as evidence that the Person has had a true Conversion to Christ --- an inward heart change which reflects outwardly . While I paraphrased and simplified this process from start to finish for the sake of understanding by the Reader , I hereby list the specific passages from the Bible which clearly corroborates my definition of a true genuine Christian whos life undergoes a radical change known as transformation into a New Creation character-wise . I present the process, chronologically, should you care to peruse them : Romans 10:8-13 to be saved / Ephesians 2:8-10 what it is based on and to what end / Romans 12:1-8 how to subsequently live . As a result of this very real and identifiable process, Jesus' teachings on moral, noble, and Godly living become the forefront of the Christians Walk for ,the Christian desires to emulate Christ .........precisely as the first 2 Scientific Studies portray . Further, while it is true that we should not judge a persons eternal destiny .... the Bible DOES instruct Us to pay attention to the Fruits of a Person whether good or bad / their willingness to live above reproach to sin with the Bible itself specifically describing the lifestyles of the Ungodly versus the Christ Follower thruout the entire New Testament in no uncertain terms . Therefore, it is not wrong to conclude that there is in fact a stark difference in how each People Group behaves , and, which can be accurately and readily identified.

3. My Opponents next paragraph is basically repetitive ; He claims that the moral behavior isn't measured in the 2 submitted Studies , but , because the Atheist IS giving an answer to each Moral Value being asked of him/her, it follows that the Person IS measuring to what degree the Moral Value is important to them AND to the level they had participated in the various degrading behavior the previous week . How is such a response 'biased' ???? If Someone asks me how many times last week did I looked at a Woman in sexual lust, and I report that is was 8 times , how is this anything but a true confession of reality that was experienced ? Same for the Atheists response who wasn't coersed into giving a particular response, for, it was freely offered . Lastly, since People are very reluctant to give answers which would damage their moral credibility , we should have expected the Atheist responses to be far lower scores concerning the 12 disturbing Moral Values ....yet we see freely given scores amounting to 5 times higher than the Christian ; when we hear or read of a confession from Someone who puts Self in a bad light due to being blatantly honest , we can have greater confidence that we are getting an accurate response. Objectivity doesn't come any stronger than this scenario .



4. My Opponent goes on to discount the credibility of Scientific Studies and Polls such as the ones I submitted, by offering his link on Brain Waves Study. In reality, we ALL place substantial confidence in independent Scientific Studies and Polls especially when they are conducted without a shred of prejudice and where the Responders are offering their personal actual experiences whether they are being asked about a Product they purchased, a Vacation they went on , or their personal experience with a Doctor, Lawyer, Butcher, Baker, or CandleStick Maker . In fact, our American Society is infused with such Studies so Consumers and Citizens can make better informed choices . We go to Consumer Reports to read of Owners actual experience with the cars they bought, we watch the Poll results on the TV Nighly News with plus or minus 2% advertised accuracy on this or that Political Party , and we go Online to get Reviews on a Book we are thinking of purchasing . Scientific Studies and dedicated Polls are instruments by which we make conclusions about something, an experience, an Individual, or a Group. The reason we place our confidence in such Studies, is because we are getting first-hand/ eye witness information in nearly every case unless otherwise noted ; and while the first 2 Studies involved answers given by Atheist People THEMSELVES as to their own behavior.......the next few Studies I submit will be based on first hand experiences from OTHERS dealing specifically with Atheists ( actuality and not 'percieved' ).

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

5. Re: The Science and Religion Link that was offered up. It fails on a few different counts : a. The Responders were obviously based on a verbal-profession of being Christian (Catholic or Protestant) and not in accordance to the objective standard which I talked about in #2 above ; current Polls have Americans claiming to be a Christian at over 90% but it its typically based on many things other than the Biblical objective definition of how one becomes saved ( a true Christian) . Further , a good many People term themselves as Catholic or Protestant based solely on their family heritage or what kind of Religious School they attended growing up --- they may or may not be Church Goers at this time of their life and they may or may not even own a Bible ! . Therefore, it is with great suspicion that those polled were in fact true genuine Christians as objectively defined by the Bible ; had the Study indicated that they were professed Bible Believing and Bible Following Born Again Christians...then that would have been much more credible although not 100% still , for, the proof is in the pudding or should I say.....in the FRUIT after Conversion to Christ . b. I don't see any Test Results to examine c. The fact that a great many Christian Scholars over the last couple centuries in particular worked feverishly to abolish all forms of slavery and racism ...... flies in the face of 'Christian ideals leading to racism' as the link purports. d. The very teachings of Christ which true Christians hold in the highest of regard and desire to pattern their lives with , are the exact opposite of racism . Therefore, this Study is not trustworthy and is fallacious in substance. Conversely, what we DO find are many past and present well known Atheist/Humanist Leaders who, based on atheistic ideologies , exhibited alarming useage of Racism to the point of mass murdering such as Stalin, Hitler, Mao, totaling well over 120,000,000 in the last century alone ..... in addition the Humanist Guru Charles Darwin whos magnum opus Book clearly exhibits racism : Its full title was 'On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.' For the sixth edition of 1872, the short title was changed to 'The Origin of Species '(Source : Wikipedia) . Further, given the void of an absolute moral law System among Atheists thereby leading to virtually any permissive behavior and speech with no ultimate moral accountability ...what we do witness in American Society is crude, defaming, racist speech in the form of heinous actions, jokes, and graffiti hiding behind Freedom of Speech in addition to White Supremisist Groups spewing hatred in the name of ungodliness because of their 'there is no God' mantra (Note : I trust you wont resort to trying to convince us that the KKK does this and are Christians...for that would be quite the non-sequitur indeed ) . Concluding then, racism has its catalyst in Atheistic Ideology and certainly not Christianity whos Creator made all People in his image with intrinsic worth and dignity and who calls us to love our Neighbor as Ourselves.



6. The last link from Huff Post says that Religious People (I assume Christians they are referring to ) are less compassionate than Atheists. This Study also fails on a number of counts : a. The first unbiased Scientific Study I offered in my introductory Post, clearly shows how Atheists and Theists rate THEMSELVES on such noble endeavors as being concerned for Others : The Atheist rated him/herself a 63 while the Theist rated an 82 based on daily interaction in Society. This is squarely based on personal introspection and the extent that this noble endeavor is played out in Ones life --- you cant get any more objective than that for accuracy b. The very Ideologies and Constructs of Atheism (Humanism) including Human Kind arriving purely accidentally from low forms of life ...and eventually back to a compassionate-LESS / moral-LESS one celled Pond Scum Protozoa (widely held 'macro evolution' by Atheists) is hardly a basis for practicing widespread compassion to the level that this Study would have us believe ; in fact it is ironic to espouse since according to atheism, we are just a graduated animal of the Forest trying to seek and satisfy our own needs and that our ultimate meaning is to get all the gusto we can FOR OURSELVES whom we adore as Numero Uno . c. Practically speaking, where do we see distinctive Atheist Groups spearheading such causes as helping the afflicted from massive Hurricanes / Starvation in Africa / the Homeless in America / taking a proactive stand for the most innocent and defenseless among us...the developing unborn Human Being / enormous rebuilding efforts in Haiti following a very destructive Earthquake / or even helping out in a local Soup Kitchen to the Destitute or bringing some cheer and compassion to Nursing Home Residents nearing death in their own locale ? Could my Opponent please list a couple of well known Organizations that are Atheist Founded and Atheist Operated which serve ANY ongoing Humanitarian Effort similar to these Christian based Organizations ? : Christian Humanitarian Organizations - Bing . d. Professor Richard Dawkins , the worlds most influential and followed Atheist Scientist Zoologist and author of several books to which Atheists worldwide have patterned their atheistic ideologies from .... a Guru equivalent to Christianitys famous Billy Graham..... unashamedly proclaims his 'compassion' toward the developing unborn Human Being as being of less value than an adult Pig ; I wonder if my Opponent could look at Billy Grahams life , work, and speeches to come up with anything whatsoever that would indicate a lack of compassion on his behalf being a long time Representative of the Christian Faith ? Richard Dawkins Claims Unborn Children Are 'Less Human' Than Pigs; Stirs Firestorm



7. Contrary to my Opponents summation....negative results HAVE BEEN shown when it comes to Atheists having lower moral character ; what ive presented so far are documented unbiased Scientific Tests where the ATHEISTS THEMSELVES provided their own lower scores in various Moral Value categories when asked / how the very ideologies of Atheism/Humanism diminish justification for being compassionate and moral / and an absence of dedicated Humanitarian Causes operated and performed by professed Atheists .



So far, we've seen how Atheists view THEMSELVES in areas of Moral Values and how they ranked themselves by taking into account how well they do in these areas within Society. Next, I shall present a couple more unbiased secular based Scientific Studies showing how OTHERS (the general population) view Atheists when it comes to moral character or lack thereof for my Opponent to address , and would ask him to please don't forget to answer the questions I posited in #6 above. Thanks. :



FOR CONSIDERATION ----



This 3rd unbiased Scientific secular Study was conducted by Psychologists at two Universities...of British Columbia and Oregon ; 770 People including Religious People and Non Religious People were given a made up scenario to consider where one of the choices was an Atheist Teacher. The Study reveals how these 770 view Atheists overall based on their personal experiences with this People Group : Study: Atheists distrusted as much as rapists – USATODAY.com



The 4th unbiased Scientific secular Study was conducted by the University of Minnesota in 2006 where over 2,000 random people (religious and non religious) were part of a telephone survey on what People Group they found to be the least trusting based on their own personal experiences . Ill let you guess who takes home the Oscar : Atheists identified as America's most distrusted minority, according to new U of M study : UMNews : University of Minnesota :

The results from two of the most important questions were:

This group does not at all agree with my vision of American society...
Atheist: 39.6%
Muslims: 26.3%
Homosexuals: 22.6%
Hispanics: 20%
Conservative Christians: 13.5%
Recent Immigrants: 12.5%
Jews: 7.6%

I would disapprove if my child wanted to marry a member of this group.... Atheist: 47.6%
Muslim: 33.5%
African-American 27.2%
Asian-Americans: 18.5%
Hispanics: 18.5%
Jews: 11.8%
Conservative Christians: 6.9%
Whites: 2.3%

(Source for the results come from an Atheist Site called About.Com (Atheism) . They are the actual results from this Univ. of Minn. Study.








Thank you, David

 

[bhsmte]

Part one:

In response to David's part one post.

David insists that polls based on self reporting are completely accurate and this is simply not the case. I posted a study done on self reporting polls in my first post, which described the major problems with the validity of such polls. Also, as I stated previously, these polls in NO WAY measure actual behavior, but only suggest what a certain individual is willing to report about their own behavior. Is everyone honest, when they self report behavior? Are Christians more motivated to portray themselves in a certain light because they want to be viewed as good Christians? There is no objective measurement of true behavior in these polls and in how their true behavior would impact others from a moral perspective, so they fall woefully short of providing evidence that non-believers are of lower moral character than Christians. The polls also were not complete for non-believers in some categories, which calls them into question even further.

Lets move on to David's desire to provide his own definition of what a "true Christian" is. David states; "it is up to God's authority alone", but then he chooses to elevate himself to a status of being able to decide, who is a "true Christian" and who is not. Quite a contradiction is in play here and David has chosen to commit the "no true Scotsman" fallacy by having his own definition explain who is qualified to be a true Christian or not. As I stated previously, David is in no position to make this judgement, even though he claims that he can and I will default to the rules of CF, that one should never question whether one is a Christian or not, when they claim to be Christian. To further this thought, there are many Christians posters on this board, who disagree quite strongly with David's philosophy in regards to this and I would surmise many other Christians would disagree with David on his self fulfilling definition of a true Christian. It almost appears, to David, no one is a true Christian, unless they are in line with his own personal beliefs. So I would ask David, who granted him the power to make a determination, on who a "true Christian" is?

David mentions that he has included; "scientific studies" as evidence that non-believers are of less moral character than Christians, but all he has done is produce self reporting surveys, which are not scientific in nature and do not measure actual behaviors on an individual. The two studies that I included in my first post; Huffington Post and Personality and Psychological review, were actually legitimate scientific studies, which measured BEHAVIORS that were directly observed and are therefore, much more applicable to how one actually behaves as opposed to assessing how someone "reports". In these two studies, the experts who performed the work stated; Christians were more inclined to display racist behavior and were LESS compassionate than non-believers in regards to compassion towards others in need. Again, these findings were based on "observed behaviors" in the 2 studies.

David has decided to go on a lengthy rant about certain individuals who he claims are non-believers; Hitler, etc. etc. and how their atheist morality drove them to their actions. He also claims that racism is rooted in atheism and the KKK members were not Christians and lastly, that Charles Darwin's theory, was based on racism. These claims are so far off the charts, it is disturbing that one could make these conclusions, again, with zero evidence to support them, but they seem to be quite common with David. A study of Hitler's background and many of his speeches, could very well lead one to believe he was a Christian. A study of the KKK, could lead one to believe, they were heavily in agreement with Christian beliefs and Charles Darwin's theory, simply explains how man evolved, yet David relates the same to racism. I will let David's claims in this regard speak for themselves and let others decide the credibility of the same. Of course, I could mention the immoral history behind certain pastors, preachers and the like, but I will refrain, because individuals do not define an entire group.

End part one.

 

[bhsmte]

Part two:
David includes a study (Atheists distrusted as much as rapists) in which he claims this is evidence that non-believers are of lower moral character than Christians. Again, major issues with the limits of this particular study because; all the study does, is ask peoples "perceptions" of atheists and in no way does it measure or even attempt to measure actual behavior.

I Quote from the article below:

Shariff, who studies atheism and religion, said the findings provide a clue to combating anti-atheism prejudice.
"If you manage to offer credible counteroffers of these stereotypes, this can do a lot to undermine people's existing prejudice," he said. "If you realize there are all these atheists you've been interacting with all your life and they haven't raped your children that is going to do a lot do dispel these stereotypes."

Below, is the link to the actual study

www2.psych.ubc.ca/.../Gervais%20et%20...

Shariff readily admits there exists anti-atheism prejudice and stereotypes and it is not based on actual behavior. This, is a very weak attempt to show, that non-believers are of lower moral character than Christians and only demonstrates, Christians have prejudice and bias against atheists.

In David's second study, it is more of the same. The quote below explains it all. Acceptance or rejection of atheists is related to one's "personal religiosity" and has no mention of actual behaviors that are measured, because the study did not measure behaviors, ONLY PERCEPTIONS. Again, another study that does not come anywhere close, to claiming what David states they claim and he comes up completely empty in producing any evidence that shows non-believers are of lower moral character than Christians in regards to behaviors, but only discusses the perceptions of mostly Christians doing the perceiving.

"The researchers also found acceptance or rejection of atheists is related not only to personal religiosity, but also to one’s exposure to diversity, education and political orientation—with more educated, East and West Coast Americans more accepting of atheists than their Midwestern counterparts."

David continues to fall woefully short, of producing any objective evidence to support his claim and has only, produced information which points to Christians being prejudice towards non-believers based on personal religious beliefs.

In regards to moral behavior and how it impacts society, which is the most important point of morality - how it impacts others. Let me provide this article in Psychology Today, in which another example is given of false information given in regards to whether one needs to be religious to be moral.
Misinformation and facts about secularism and religion | Psychology Today

This article also points out a comprehensive study completed and compared more secular societies to more religious societies and looked at; criminal behavior and a number of other morality based behaviors as quoted below from the study:

Outlooks and Values: Zuckerman, citing numerous studies, shows that atheists and agnostics, when compared to religious people, are actually less likely to be nationalistic, racist, anti-Semitic, dogmatic, ethnocentric, and authoritarian. Secularism also correlates to higher education levels. Atheists and other secular people are also much more likely to support women's rights and gender equality, as well as gay and lesbian rights. Religious individuals are more likely to support government use of torture.

In summary, David has yet to produce any type of objective evidence that shows non-believers to be of lower moral character than Christians, not even close, he has only relied upon the biased perceptions of Christians themselves, towards atheists or self reporting polls which DO NOT MEASURE BEHAVIOR. Yet, I have been able to produce scientific studies that have shown non-believers demonstrate a higher level of morality than Christians in many areas. These are not self reporting polls, but studies that measure behavior and relies on reliable data to support it's findings.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Before I offer the 5th and final unbiased Secular Scientific Study , I shall give response to some of my Opponents assertions .

1. The first Study I presented is NOT a Self Reporting Study on Oneself at all ; rather, it is about how each Group views the importance of various topical character traits and topical values IN GENERAL which may or may not be experienced by each Participant ; there is no skin off Anyones nose if they give a low score on a particular Value because the Survey was given to a very large number of people (1600) and was anonymous . They were only asked to label themselves either Theist or Atheist as an identity to best represent their position in life . They are not being asked to rate each Moral Value based on how much they occupy it , but, only whether they deem it important or not ; it is akin to me asking a large number of people if they believe excersising 3 times per week is important or not ... perhaps the majority DO so already and maybe most DONT., but they are not being asked if they actually do it 3 times per week. Therefore, the complaint about 'Self Reporting' for this first Study is totally bogus because they were being asked HOW THEY FEEL about these topics and nothing else . Here it is again for review , and the results show a lack of concern and/or complacency toward essential civil behavior on behalf of those labeled Atheist :

'A survey of 1,600 Canadians asked them what were their beliefs about God and what moral values they considered to be "very important." The results of the survey are shown below:



Moral Values of Theists vs. Atheists1


Moral Value

Theists

Atheists



Honesty
94% 89%

Kindness
88 75

Family life
88 65

Being loved
86 70

Friendship
85 74

Courtesy
81 71

Concern for others
82 63

Forgiveness
84 52

Politeness
77 65

Friendliness
79 66

Patience
72 39

Generosity
67 37

Although the differences between theists and atheists in the importance of values such as honesty, politeness, and friendliness are generally small, moral values emphasized by religious beliefs, such as Christianity, including patience, forgiveness, and generosity exhibit major differences in attitudes (30%+ differences between theists and atheists' .



2. The second Study I presented is a Self Reporting unbiased Study whereby each of the 1003 Participants , again anonymous , were asked how they would rate each participated behavior based on the previous week to their lives ; because the Study is tied to anonymity , there is no fear of being found out by the Pollster . Further, my Opponent suggests that maybe the Evangelical Christians fudged their numbers by reporting intentionally low in these undesirable behaviors so theyd look better , but he fails to grasp that true regenerated Christians have been reconstructed by Gods power in their lives which eventually lead to a positive change and modification of Temperment as well as personal Character , further, the teachings of the Bible emphasize values such as honesty, love, forgiveness, patience, and generosity which a genuine CHristian wants to embrace. Many of these values are not emphasized in social circles dominated by atheists. Every true Born Again Believer and Surrenderer to Christ including myself, can attest to the often radical change that makes One desire to occupy the righteousness of Christ which becomes a measurable Quality especially over a long period of time --- this is not to say that perfection has been reached, for, all Christians are a work in progress. And I submit the same is available to Atheists if they want it , since a good many Christians were once Atheists in their lives , as is my story . My question is : How come the Atheists didn't rate themselves lower in participation of these poor behaviors to make THEMselves look better , but instead freely listed themselves at a FIVE TIMES HIGHER frequency rate ?! Could we surmise that maybe they were being quite honest in their personal reflection since anonymity was guaranteed ??? The conclusion of the Study reveals that either these polled Atheists don't see these behaviors as all that bad, immoral, unethical therefore making them permissible to participate in...and/or they will simply live their life however they deem fit by thinking (hoping) there is no ultimate moral accountability for how they live their life on Earth ; the Bible refers to this as being unregenerate and putting Self on the throne instead of Gods rightful place in their life. Here are the outcomes once again :

'A random sample of 1003 adults were surveyed in May, 2008 by The Barna Group for their participation in a number of negative behaviors within the previous week. The results showed that there were vast differences in the behaviors of evangelicals compared to agnostics/atheists.


Moral Behaviors of Evangelicals vs. Atheists6


Sin

Evangelicals

Atheists



Viewing pornography
12% 50%

Profanity in public
16 60

Gambling
2 ?7

Gossiping
4 34

Sex with non-spouse
3 ?7

Retaliation
?7 11

Drunkenness
0.5 33

Lying
1 ?7

Average

6

29


These results show that atheists/agnostics participate in morally questionable behaviors to a much greater degree than evangelical Christians - an average of nearly five times the frequency !'



3. My Opponent has a misconception regarding my paragraph detailing what a true genuine Christian is . The Bible which is Gods written instructions to all of mankind, explicitly details HOW to become a true Christian and WHAT a true genuine Christian looks like as far as lifestyle is concerned ; the authority of this comes from the Creator himself and he has made it plain for EVERYONE to know the difference between being saved and unsaved which is the greatest issue imaginable facing mankind since it determines Ones residence for all of eternity. God thru his written words of instruction, has given ALL the ability to determine if We (Ourselves) qualify or don't ... and he gives ALL the ability to know what lifestyles constitute being a Christian because he layed out the very specific behaviors and lifestyles which follow the Regenerate (Christian person) and the Unregenerate (willful Non Believer, Atheist person) . So, based on THIS authority of Gods Word....One can get a pretty good clue as to who is genuinely redeemed or not since the Fruit of both the redeemed and unredeemed are explicitly listed in the Bible , and, based on making some conclusions , the Bible actually commands Christians to go to people who are taking the wrong immoral path in life and point out the error of their ways in a tactful loving concerned manner An Unregenerated Non Believer can assume he/she is moral, ethical, etc....but that goes against the very autonomy that the Unregenerate Person desires for himself which is freedom to live as they like unencumbered by absolute firm moral values .



The reason I took the time to elaborate on how to become a real genuine Christian with the subsequent evidences of good Fruit ...is because too many times the Critics of Christianity assume a person is a bonified Christian just because they say so ; what comes to mind is the absurd declaration often made by Atheists that most of the incarcerated are Christians when they were put in --- the reality is....they were not true genuine Christians when they entered prison but many became genuine CHristians during their incarceration and eventually leave prison under this new saved-status. Oftentimes, they enter into the Clergy or dedicate their lifes to CHristian missions of some kind from having a radical God-produced transformation of their character and modification of their temperament(s) . I also showed what a true Christian is so all Followers of this Debate including Yourself could see what is required if you choose to have your many accumulated sins totally forgiven thru what Christ accomplished on the cross so you can be fully reconciled with God your Creator . It requires a personal surrender of Self to God and admitting that God has a better plan for how to do life than the enslavement which comes thru partaking in 'permissive' behaviors and lifestyles afforded thru freedom to live this way (as the Studies reveal) . The bottom line is , we are ALL sinners by nature and deserve the justice of God ...but God in his love freely offers a way to be reconciled to himself if we are willing to make ourselves #2 instead of #1 . That way is the way of the Cross and no other . In such a Debate as this, it is easy to get into friction and hostility where matters of moral and ethics are discussed between two People Groups in particular .... but putting that aside for the moment, I would be remiss if I didn't point out that there IS a way for those who currently reject God to be made right in his eyes and as a result, God will quicken the heart and soul of that person to where he actually takes on the righteousness and holiness of Christ thru surrender of Ones will and obedience to living according to Gods standards instead of our own 'moral' standards . The payoff for receiving Christ into ones life is not only this kind of a radical change, but, a guarantee of spending eternity with the very Creator who brought the Universe into being from nothing.



4. Racist behavior among widespread true genuine Christ Followers...is a non sequitur . Even the Critics and Cynics of the Christian Faith know that such things as love, compassion, empathy, peace, unity, respect, etc...are trademarks of Christ and hence real Christ Followers. Even the popular atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell in his book called 'AntiChrist' stated : ' What this world now needs is CHristian love and compassion' so he knew about this Christian ideal and that it is a large part of the culture . Im not saying that it is impossible for a genuine Christian to have racist overtones as many genuine Christians still struggle with their former worldly ways and actions and perhaps family upbringing...but racism is in no way the predominant social ill that your Study claims it is among the true CHristian Community. In fact, publicly, in regards to humanitarian issues....you find many races in complete unity and brotherhood in accomplishing meaningful Christian goals . Therefore, this assertion is also inaccurate and bogus. The observed behavior of racism is almost always from the People Group who put a low value on things like forgiveness, compassion, unity, kindness, concern for others, etc.... See #1 above for which People Group puts a lower value on such terms .

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

5. There is abundant historical evidence to show that atheist Leaders of the last century included Stalin, Tao, Mussilini, and Hitler who collectively accounted for 120,000,000 + murders based on pure racism and national origin . In fact, Hitler murdered tens of thousands of Christians in addition to the well known fact of extinction toward 6 million Jews ; so just because Hitler was raised Catholic as a Youth, means squat . He obviously didn't display Christlikeness thru a true Born Again experience with the living God . As for badly behaved Pastors and the like....I never asserted that true Christians were sinless all the time after true conversion for temptations abound at every turn, however, such behavior is not typical of the regenerated Christ Lover and Follower whereas with the majority of Atheists such things as premarital sex would be deemed permissible so long as two agreed to it as if two wrongs make it therefore right. What Atheists need to understand is : Not everything done in the NAME of God is necessarily OF God when taking into account such things as religious wars, the Inquisitions, etc .



6. The 3rd unbiased Study I submitted putting Atheists in a very unfavorable light, involved Responders who obviously had previous first hand experience with Atheists since Atheists are abundant and in all sectors of Society making it virtually impossible not to have run across some and to discover their behavior / view on morals and ethics . Based on an Atheists lack of objective moral foundation whereby trust, honesty, etc...are (not) part of, it is no wonder that this first-hand observation would influence how they perceive Atheists in a general sense . No one is saying that ALL Atheists are untrusting, etc....only that the LEVEL of such values are lower from making SELF ones authority instead of a higher authority such as Gods . People perceive such Social Groups the way they do almost always based on their personal interaction or from personal discovery from a distance of these Groups in Society, therefore such reporting cannot always be chalked up to an unfair stereotype . In fact concerning the issue of trust, if you personally had a 16 year old daughter who was about to be picked up for a 4 hour evening date , would you feel better with a Boy who didn't have an objective moral compass and demanded the freedom to decide what behavior was permissive or not, or, someone whos moral compass was squarely centered on the person and teachings of Christ ? Essentially, that is the distinction between a true Atheist and a true genuine Christian.



7. This 4th unbiased Study is asking People how each Group ranks ; how we rank People Groups are again based on our personal experience with each even though it may be at various levels of interaction . Any Adult by the time they are 21, has had SOME experience with all of these People Groups directly, or at least know of their ideology/constructs/principles/views on important topics and are thus reflecting their personal feeling based on a degree of objectivity of their actual interaction . Such personal feeling is taking into account either consciously or sub-consciously their personal experience with each Group or at least based on knowledge of each Group. Therefore, some measuring or determining is taking place before answering. Obviously for Atheists to lead the way of such Undesirables as the Report indicates....there must be some definitive reason why this is so , and if 'prejudice' is involved...then perhaps its the kind of prejudice that warrants validity based on a better ideal which the One being polled, has for themselves / their Nation / and Adult CHild were a suitable marriage partner is concerned.
Atheists identified as America's most distrusted minority, according to new U of M study : UMNews : University of Minnesota :

The results from two of the most important questions were:

This group does not at all agree with my vision of American society...
Atheist: 39.6%
Muslims: 26.3%
Homosexuals: 22.6%
Hispanics: 20%
Conservative Christians: 13.5%
Recent Immigrants: 12.5%
Jews: 7.6%

I would disapprove if my child wanted to marry a member of this group.... Atheist: 47.6%
Muslim: 33.5%
African-American 27.2%
Asian-Americans: 18.5%
Hispanics: 18.5%
Jews: 11.8%
Conservative Christians: 6.9%
Whites: 2.3%



8. It is asserted that I 'fall woefully short on presenting objective evidence for Atheists being of a lower moral character than Christians' and that my motive was based on my religious beliefs as a prejudice . Both of these claims fall woefully short and are being offered up because it is easier to deny, deny, deny the reality because the scientific results cast Atheists , in particular, in a very unfavorable moral and behavioral light. Actually, it shouldn't come as a surprise because a People Group that put themselves as their own authority in life choosing IF they want to apply a moral standard toward a decision or action .... will not be working from a solid foundational base of absolute moral laws from an absolute Moral Law Provider . The outcome for America just over the past 50 years due to jettisoning God and his moral laws for living , has been catastrophic . Examples being : Almost 1 in 3 Women during their lifetime will be assaulted physically/sexually , Male Homosexuality accounting for 78% of ALL AIDS from a People Group representing <2% of the U.S. Population , Prisons at the breaking point with People not wanting to follow God and his correct ways for living , an enormous increase in new gun ownership so average U.S. Citizens can level the playing field from People Groups not wanting to follow God thereby thinking nothing of anarchy , and many other examples of Man being his own morally-degraded Authority. The scientific evidence shows that its the Atheist Population by and large, that leads the way to lower living often culminating in crime and corruption in Society on a widespread level. What else should we expect for being hostile toward God and finding dissension with virtually everything that represents righteousness, holiness, sacredness / reminders such as Crosses in public that tell us God has a better way of doing life than our own and that we all need a Savior because we don't measure up to Gods moral ideals / and a ridicule of Christians who have chosen to go the way of Christ yet serve as an affront to the willful God-rejectors agenda . Unless an Atheist comes to Christ for forgiveness and change, im afraid that it is THEY who will fall woefully short. And by the same token, unless professed 'Christians' become true and genuine in their acceptance of CHrist with subsequent evidence of good fruit and a turning away from worldly lifestyles commensurate with that of Atheists.......they too will come up short.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

When it comes to morality, atheists tend to be very quiet about what role atheism plays in shaping their personal morality. You won't find atheists saying that their atheism was influential in getting them off of drugs, stopping their alcoholism and ending their addictions to pornography, gambling, or any other personal moral fault. The fact is that atheism has no power at all to change personal morality (in a positive way).



9. My Debate Partners final paragraph indicates that its actually Believers in Christ that exhibit lower morality than Atheists ; however, this is unfounded from the way people view Atheists and Christians and report their findings based on personal experience with each People Group ...or as an absolute minimum...from what they have learned of each People Group concerning their ideals, views, and constructs. And the submitted unbiased Scientific Studies (including the final one I shall submit momentarily) clearly show Atheists as the undesirable in Society. My Partners site doesn't take into account THE BIBLICAL STANDARD for what constitutes a real genuine Christian , and so, the information is based on People who 'profess' a Christian faith which is highly unreliable since it is based on a subjective view of Oneself and from knowing that espousing the term 'CHristian' comes with a favorable view from Others where morals and ethics for proper living are noble. Ergo, this Study isn't worth the bandwidth that it took to print it on . Additionally, it is absurd to really think that a true life changing event as becoming Born Again in CHrist would come from such a People Group that displays ongoing despicable behaviors in public such as the realities of : Speutum found on the inside walls of elevators , taking the family to a restaurant and having to listen to the table at back of you discuss their weekend plans of using women for a copulation , inconsiderate People peeing on a toilet seat because they could care less about the next person to visit the stall, the constant usage of profanity in public from inside Starbucks to the isles of Grocery Stores , being routinely ripped off from local God-denouncing unscrupulous Merchants , date rape , widespread vandalism, home breakins , malicious gossiping , murdering of the unborn for birth control, et al... and many many other forms of societal ills in America and around the World. No my Friend....such immorality and social ills are not coming from dedicated Christians, but from dedicated Atheists who play the charade that 'there is no God' ...and its THIS very construct that leads to aberrant behavior because what One believes in governs Ones actions .



Heres is the 5th and final independent unbiased Study which looked closely at some 30,000 individuals (or family units) which determined that how Christians and Atheists give of their money vastly differs . Religious Faith and Charitable Giving | Hoover Institution scroll down a ways for specific results :



' The Hoover Institution (part of Stanford University) has studied philanthropic giving and volunteerism among populations.10 Making 30,000 observations over 50 different communities, they found that religious people are much more likely to donate money to charities (91 percent to 66 percent) more likely to volunteer time (67 percent to 44 percent). The amount they give is also quite different with religious people averaging $2,210, compared to only $642 among the secular, even though incomes and education levels are virtually the same. Religious people's giving is not just to religious causes either, since they also out give secular people when donating to secular causes'.



The results of this Study line up with the results of the other Studies I submitted which shows Christians have a greater concern , overall, for people and are more compassionate than their Atheist counterparts . The power of God in Ones life to transform that individual is portrayed outwardly because the Persons views of life , people, and service to Others (and thereby God) take on a new fresh priority. The same is available to all non Christians if they want to experience a very real dynamic personal relationship which involves change from knowing the very Creator of our Souls. A rhetorical question id like to leave with my Debate Partner is : Why wouldn't an Individual want this for themselves and their family (?) I believe a good starting point would be for my Partner to stop denying that Atheism leads to a good wholesome behavior in society , that it in fact encourages sin and bad behaviors , that it is ultimately destructive for both the Atheist as well as a Nation at large, and to simply cast aside pride to surrender to Gods authority in ones life in conjunction with having all of Ones many accumulated sins forgiven and erased. There is no better life experience than this and its what God and I would like to offer you as a professed Atheist.



As a Bonus 6th example Study.....the following is a short story on how an independent diligent ATHEIST Researcher set out to defame Christians from a moral standpoint and write a book about it, only to change his Mind upon obtaining the objective facts ; this caused him to change the very Title of the book . Here is his personal unbiased Study account : Recently, Guenter Lewy of the University of Massachusetts set out to write a book entitled Why America Doesn't Need Religion. He wanted the book to be "a defense of secular humanism and ethical relativism." Lewy is not a Christian and does not believe in God. But he was determined to offer his results as objectively as possible.

As Lewy assembled his extensive research, he received a surprise. He
found himself forced to conclude that Christianity has a record of
strong support for social justice and human dignity. Other research
forced him to conclude that Christians at that time constantly showed
a lower rate than non Christians of the behaviors associated with
social ills and moral failure. These include divorce, domestic
violence, out of wedlock births, adult crime and juvenile delinquency.
He finally concluded, from other studies, that people who actually
live the Christian life have higher rates of happiness and are
healthier. The final title of his book is Why America Needs
Religion.



Thank you for debating with me, and thank you Readers for considering the unbiased Studies which were fairly conducted , fairly answered, and which did take into account levels of measurability , namely, based on the Responders personal experience with Atheists either directly or at a very minimum....from knowing of Atheisms ideals, constructs, and views affording them an accurate valid response --- in short.... America has spoken on the issue of Atheism sociologically ! It pales in comparison to the true Christian Faith...and it is failing to make American Society better at just a cursory look at the societal lifestyle ills of today from wanting to disobey God and his loving moral mandates to live by. To keep on denying the factual results and repeating that the Studies aren't taking into account the measuring of the Atheists behavior....is akin to a Defense Attorney saying to the Prosecutor : ' Aside from your eye witnesses testimonies to the actions of this Group of People, you have no case !' Taking note of and measuring / discovering / analyzing the behavior of an Atheist Group in public then reporting on it ... is something that would stand up well in a Court of Law because its first hand eye witness accounts . You may not like the results which paint your People Group in a poor way, but im afraid youre stuck with it because its not going to change...except for getting worse in time which is always the consequence for shunning God from Ones life .



Finally, I would hope that your forthcoming rebuttals will not contain the same hubris of denying , denying, denying and trying to peg me as being 'religiously prejudice' against Atheists -- that is far from the truth. The truth is, I used to be an Atheist for 10 adult years and hung around with the same crowd extensively so im quite familiar with the attitudes/mindset/actions/views that Atheists typically have ; instead I would hope your next post would tend to the following : 1. Describe the power that Atheistic moral relativism has which (as you claim) makes for Atheists being of higher moral character than true Born Again Christians . 2. Answer the specific questions I posited in this Post (as listed in Sections 2 and 6 above) instead of not addressing questions ive asked in past Posts of you.



Ill look forward to reading these answers, in particular.







David

 

[bhsmte]

Final Post Part One:

Rebuttal to David's points:

1 & 2; I will repeat what I already stated in my last post in response to the links David utilized. These are indeed self reporting surveys/polls that do not measure a person's actual behavior nor where they designed to even attempt to observe a person's actual behavior and are only written responses based on each person's perception and opinion. Researcher's in behavior, would not rely on self reporting survey's as accurate measures of an individuals behavior and recognize the significant limitations to these types of survey's/polls, including prejudice, as was pointed out by one of the researcher's in the article David posted.

3. In regards to David's desire to identify "true Christians". David mentions that God is the ultimate judge of this, yet expends quite a bit of energy discussing how he has interpreted the bible's definition of a true Christian and this gives him the ability to make this determination. The arrogance of one stating they have an accurate description of a true Christian and can discern the same, is overwhelming. Many would disagree with David's personal interpretation of a "true Christian", as many have witnessed in response to many of David's posts on the CF forum. Also, David uses self reporting surveys/polls that do nothing to identify the guidelines David mentions to isolate true Christians, so how can they be valid? David wants to utilize these polls based on perception and self reporting and claims they are correct, but then he states many people just claim to be Christian, so how could they be accurate measures?

4. In regards to racism, I will stand behind the study I posted in my last response (Misinformation and facts about secularism and religion, Psychology Today). The article makes the conclusions below, BASED ON OBSERVED BEHAVIOR:

Outlooks and Values: Zuckerman, citing numerous studies, shows that atheists and agnostics, when compared to religious people, are actually less likely to be nationalistic, racist, anti-Semitic, dogmatic, ethnocentric, and authoritarian. Secularism also correlates to higher education levels. Atheists and other secular people are also much more likely to support women's rights and gender equality, as well as gay and lesbian rights. Religious individuals are more likely to support government use of torture.

5. This is a very weak attempt, to label certain people such as Hitler as atheists. First of all, there is more evidence that Hitler was a God believing person, as he referenced "doing God's work" in his speeches and in his book and referenced God many times in his rhetoric to his people and was brought up Catholic. The important point here, is the weak attempt to take a handful of people and relate them to a large group, which any behavioral researcher, would never put any credence in what so ever. As mentioned, I could have chosen to discuss the immoral actions of various people that are clearly heavily religious, were relied upon by many people to guide them in their faith and failed miserably in the same and harmed many lives. So, a one off discussion of morality of a handful of people, is both useless and meaningless.
Also, this third study that David mentions; (Atheists distrusted as much as rapists), the researcher himself states the following about the findings:

Shariff, who studies atheism and religion, said the findings provide a clue to combating anti-atheism prejudice.
"If you manage to offer credible counteroffers of these stereotypes, this can do a lot to undermine people's existing prejudice," he said. "If you realize there are all these atheists you've been interacting with all your life and they haven't raped your children that is going to do a lot do dispel these stereotypes."

When the researcher himself states there exists stereo types and prejudice the perceptions of those surveyed is just that; prejudicial.

6. I get a kick out of David repeating "unbiased study" over and over again, when the researchers doing the survey state themselves, that there is prejudice involved in their observations. This 4th study is more of the same, when the researchers make this important point of clarification:

"The researchers also found acceptance or rejection of atheists is related not only to personal religiosity, but also to one’s exposure to diversity, education and political orientation—with more educated, East and West Coast Americans more accepting of atheists than their Midwestern counterparts."

Why David would feel "personal experiences" of people judging others, was a valid way of determining morality is beyond me and especially when there are direct quotes from the researchers involved, claiming prejudice and stereo types are in play from believers.

End part one.

 

[bhsmte]

Part Two:

8. Yes David, it is easy to deny and reject your evidence, when the researchers of the evidence you presented, stated Christians displayed prejudice and stereo type behavior towards non-believers. If I am not mistaken, none of the researchers of the self-reporting survey’s and polls you utilized, concluded non-believers were of lower moral character than Christians. 9. A one off study showing Christians give more to charity is not of significance. I posted a study previously from the Huffington Post, which found non-believers to be more compassionate then believers as shown below:

In the first study, Saslow and her colleagues analyzed data from a national survey of more than 1,300 American adults taken in 2004. They found that compassionate attitudes were linked with how many generous behaviors a person was likely to report. But this link was strongest in people who were atheists or only slightly religious, compared with people who were more strongly religious.

David has presented flawed information, which did not substantiate what he claims that it did, in regards to real human behavior that was observed. If anything, David helped to provide evidence, than some Christians (like David) have prejudicial attitudes towards non-believers, based on perceptions, personal beliefs, etc. This type of judgment, would not appear to be the “Christian” type of behavior, that would be acceptable by those who subscribe to removing the log in their own eye, before doing the same to another person. David has essentially preached his own personal beliefs, as he does so well, as is evidenced by reviewing his posts in this debate and by reviewing many of his posts on this forum in general.

Meanwhile, I presented evidence that did in fact analyze "observed behavior" in which the study concluded; non-believers displayed a higher morality in regards to their behavior as summarized below:

Outlooks and Values:
Zuckerman, citing numerous studies, shows that atheists and agnostics, when compared to religious people, are actually less likely to be nationalistic, racist, anti-Semitic, dogmatic, ethnocentric, and authoritarian. Secularism also correlates to higher education levels. Atheists and other secular people are also much more likely to support women's rights and gender equality, as well as gay and lesbian rights. Religious individuals are more likely to support government use of torture.

I appreciate the opportunity to debate what I would consider to be a very important topic and one which needs "real evidence" to reach judgmental conclusions, especially when that judgment is based on personal perceptions and beliefs, which can be overly bias.