Another incestuous hypothetical... the end of the world is near...

stan1980

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A mystery virus has wiped out the world. Except, that is, you and either your brother or sister, or if you haven't got a brother or sister, I suppose you'll have to imagine your mum or dad. It seems you must be resistant to the virus that has killed everyone else off. My question is, do you keep the human race going, by sleeping with your sister or brother or is this the end for humans?

Edit: Oh, and there are no Turkey Basters to hand.
 

Archer93

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No- there would be insufficient genetic diversity. Not a good legacy for the future.
I know that cheetahs (sp?) bottlenecked to one breeding pair at some point, but they have more young more frequently. Humans are much slower to reproduce so there is less variation over more time.
 
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Archer93

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How would I know that, though?
It appears that a major reason for the incest taboo is that it results in unhealthy offspring- and without knowing for sure that this is no longer a factor I would be reluctant to consider it.

In human cultures where incest has been mandatory- such as the Pharonic and Ptolomeic lines in ancient Egypt- they got over the worst of the problem by being rather ruthless in culling out undesirable consequences. Which is fine if you only need one or two viable children to continue the line, but less good if you're trying to repopulate.

If you were starting out with absolutely perfect DNA then I suppose it could be possible to build up enough genetic diversity before non-beneficial mutations crept in, but I'm not a geneticist so can't say for sure.
 
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Gremlins

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Interesting fact: The language gene was spread through incest- obviously one person having the language gene would be no use, since he'd have no one to talk to, so he must have breeded with a relative, since any mutation would probably be quite rare. Hence why we can all be traced back to a single mother (because once one group had language, it was such an amazing advantage that they spread across the whole world).
 
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Verv

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I have heard science believes that humans came from roughly 2 to 6 macro-evolved lower species. It really doesn't just happen like "shazzam suddenly there are 10,000 Cro-Magnons running around," "Wam! We have like 10 tribes of highly advanced monkeys that will later become humans."

Rather, humans most likely came about in extraordinarily low numbers in the beginning.

It's not like one day homoerectuses began having exclusively human kids with genetic diversity.
 
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TooCurious

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If it were my father? The human race would end with us, and that's without even discussing incest taboos. Now, if I had a hypothetical brother, it might be a different situation; I don't know. I'm not sure I would want to go through the physical process of spawning enough offspring to repopulate the species, though. So really, the best way I can answer this question is to imagine hypothetically that I were male, and had a sister.

In that case, I don't know. Maybe. It would probably depend significantly on whether the problem of genetic diversity and harmful recessives had been addressed. I'm not entirely sure that I understand the notion of a "responsibility to repopulate the species," but it might be nice to have some company.
 
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Verv

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You know it could normalize faster than you think...

This is interesting:

A professional study concluded that cousins who marry might not even have that much more of a chance of genetic problems than regular folks.

And by the way, Wikipedia knows that incest is more common than you think:

"Prevalence is difficult to generalize, but research has estimated 10-15% of the general population as having at least one incest experience, with less than 2% involving intercourse or attempted intercourse.[4] Among women, research by Russell (1986) and Wyatt (1985) has yielded estimates as high as twenty percent.[3]"

If 20 different people post in this thread there is a good chance that two of them have had incestuous experience.

Also interesting:

"An observational study in 1993 found that 16 percent of the 930 adult women interviewed reported that they had been sexually abused by a sibling before they were 18 years old.[25]"

I mean we are nearly even approaching the 1 in 5 point.
 
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TooCurious

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I have heard science believes that humans came from roughly 2 to 6 macro-evolved lower species. It really doesn't just happen like "shazzam suddenly there are 10,000 Cro-Magnons running around," "Wam! We have like 10 tribes of highly advanced monkeys that will later become humans."

I'm not even sure what this means. This is probably because you didn't get this information from a reputable scientific source. I can tell this because "macro-evolved" and "lower species" are not terms used within the scientific community. That, and "science" doesn't "believe" anything. Science isn't an entity, and belief is not relevant in scientific circles. Evidence is relevant. I'd like to make a respectful suggestion that I hope you'll find helpful: If you hear something strange or incomprehensible about something "science believes," it's a good idea to try and find an actual scientific source on the topic, as that is likely to yield much more accurate information.

jmverville said:
Rather, humans most likely came about in extraordinarily low numbers in the beginning.

On what do you base this assertion? I'm curious.

jmverville said:
It's not like one day homoerectuses began having exclusively human kids with genetic diversity.

You're right, it's not like that at all. Evolution is a process of gradual change over time. One generation of a population will be very, very similar to the one immediately preceding it, but small changes accumulate over the course of many generations. If you compare one generation of a population to their great^10000-grandparents, you are likely to see far more significant changes. By way of analogy, consider the movement of the continents. The distance that tectonic plates travel in a single year is negligible, but over the course of millions of years, the accumulated result of all those tiny shifts renders the surface of the planet almost unrecognizable. For a more immediate analogy, consider your own hair and fingernails. The amount that they grow in a single day is barely noticeable (I'm referring here to the hair on your head, not anywhere you'd shave, because obviously shaving makes the growth more obvious), but over the course of weeks, months, or years, that accumulated growth becomes apparent. Evolution, similarly, is about changes in a population over time; it has nothing to do with one generation spontaneously being drastically different than the one immediately previous.
 
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Verv

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I'm not even sure what this means. This is probably because you didn't get this information from a reputable scientific source. I can tell this because "macro-evolved" and "lower species" are not terms used within the scientific community. That, and "science" doesn't "believe" anything. Science isn't an entity, and belief is not relevant in scientific circles. Evidence is relevant. I'd like to make a respectful suggestion that I hope you'll find helpful: If you hear something strange or incomprehensible about something "science believes," it's a good idea to try and find an actual scientific source on the topic, as that is likely to yield much more accurate information.



On what do you base this assertion? I'm curious.

Uhhh... Macroevolution is a real term. Lower species is implied by the fact that other human-like creatures at the time were incapable of cmpeting with us and essentially died out.

And I also base this on science.

It is believed by many scientists that all humans have one common female ancestor:

"According to the Out of Africa Model, developed by Chris Stringer and Peter Andrews, modern H. sapiens evolved in Africa 200,000 years ago. Homo sapiens began migrating from Africa between 70,000 – 50,000 years ago and would eventually replace existing hominid species in Europe and Asia.[38][39] The Out of Africa Model has gained support by recent research using mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA). After analysing genealogy trees constructed using 133 types of mtDNA, they concluded that all were descended from a woman from Africa, dubbed Mitochondrial Eve.[40]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

Of course at the time she was not the only living human the article goes on to state but I really do not see

It is all hotly debated -- some believe that humans evolved a bit and then we interbred with other groups:

"Instead, they suggest that archaic non-African groups, such as the Neandertals, made significant contributions to the genomes of modern humans in Eurasia."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070112104129.htm

It is unknown.

and macroevolution is a term...

You know that.

Genetic diversity may have indeed been achieved through interbreeding with what are essentially different groups.

I am not sure what I said that you had such a big problem with -- it sounds like you are just conceited and want to try to talk down at Christians.


You're right, it's not like that at all. Evolution is a process of gradual change over time. One generation of a population will be very, very similar to the one immediately preceding it, but small changes accumulate over the course of many generations. If you compare one generation of a population to their great^10000-grandparents, you are likely to see far more significant changes. By way of analogy, consider the movement of the continents. The distance that tectonic plates travel in a single year is negligible, but over the course of millions of years, the accumulated result of all those tiny shifts renders the surface of the planet almost unrecognizable. For a more immediate analogy, consider your own hair and fingernails. The amount that they grow in a single day is barely noticeable (I'm referring here to the hair on your head, not anywhere you'd shave, because obviously shaving makes the growth more obvious), but over the course of weeks, months, or years, that accumulated growth becomes apparent. Evolution, similarly, is about changes in a population over time; it has nothing to do with one generation spontaneously being drastically different than the one immediately previous.

Yeah but I do not understand a massive jump... I do not understand how eventually single-cell organisms get little by little bigger and then even evolve strange spots on them that can act like eyes, etc. ad nauseum.

I guess single tribes of human-like groups must have been isolated and together long enough to begin their evolution together and eventually spawn more and more and more human-like kids until eventually we got here.

There was probably a great deal of inbreeding occurring at thsi time. Although animals do sometimes have instincts against inbreeding many dogs don't. I do not know about human-like species (and apparently a lot of scientists don't).

Overall this could be just really irrelevant.
 
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TooCurious

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Uhhh... Macroevolution is a real term.

It's not a term I've ever encountered in a biology class, or a science text. The only place I've ever encountered it has been in debates with creationists who try to establish some difference between evolution below the species level and evolution above the species level.

jmverville said:
Lower species is implied by the fact that other human-like creatures at the time were incapable of cmpeting with us and essentially died out.

"Lower" is not a notion involved in science. The fact that a species is out-competed and goes extinct does not make it less-evolved.

jmverville said:
And I also base this on science.

It is believed by many scientists that all humans have one common female ancestor:

"According to the Out of Africa Model, developed by Chris Stringer and Peter Andrews, modern H. sapiens evolved in Africa 200,000 years ago. Homo sapiens began migrating from Africa between 70,000 – 50,000 years ago and would eventually replace existing hominid species in Europe and Asia.[38][39] The Out of Africa Model has gained support by recent research using mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA). After analysing genealogy trees constructed using 133 types of mtDNA, they concluded that all were descended from a woman from Africa, dubbed Mitochondrial Eve.[40]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

Of course at the time she was not the only living human the article goes on to state but I really do not see

It is all hotly debated -- some believe that humans evolved a bit and then we interbred with other groups:

"Instead, they suggest that archaic non-African groups, such as the Neandertals, made significant contributions to the genomes of modern humans in Eurasia."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070112104129.htm

It is unknown.

Thank you for explaining what you were talking about. I've heard a bit about the idea of a "mitochondrial Eve."

jmverville said:
and macroevolution is a term...

You know that.

I know it's a term. I don't know that it's a scientific term. I know that it's a term most commonly used by creationists and people in discussions with creationists.

jmverville said:
Genetic diversity may have indeed been achieved through interbreeding with what are essentially different groups.

That's an interesting thought. I'd be interested to see research on that topic.

jmverville said:
I am not sure what I said that you had such a big problem with

My biggest problem was the fact that, in the post I initially quoted, I couldn't understand what you were saying from the way you phrased it. My secondary problem was that you were apparently talking about claims made by the scientific community, but in highly unscientific terms; it seemed like you might be -- inadvertently or deliberately -- setting up a strawman, and I wanted to clarify things.

jmverville said:
-- it sounds like you are just conceited and want to try to talk down at Christians.

I really wish you wouldn't make things up about me, and invent motivations that I do not possess, especially when they are insulting to me. I'm not conceited, and I have no wish to "talk down" to anyone. Why do you assume that my response (which you interpreted to be mean-spirited, even though it was not intended to be) had anything to do with the fact that you are a Christian, or that I want to be mean-spirited toward Christians in general? If I had any problem with your post, it was that I felt it demonstrated a flawed understanding of the science under discussion. You're not suggesting that Christianity and a flawed understanding of science are connected, are you? I wouldn't assert such; I know that there are many Christians in the world who are quite good at science.

jmverville said:
Yeah but I do not understand a massive jump... I do not understand how eventually single-cell organisms get little by little bigger and then even evolve strange spots on them that can act like eyes, etc. ad nauseum.

This is precisely what I've been saying: there is no "massive jump"; it's a long series of short hops. Single-celled organisms might cluster together in colonies, like algae. Those at the perimeter of the colony are under different pressures than those closer to the center, and so develop in different ways, and over time this results in specialization, a sort of "division of labor." Over still more time, the individual organisms within the colony become increasingly dependent on one another. Eventually you end up with something that much more closely resembles a single, multicellular organism. (I'm sure it's much more complicated than that, but it's early and I'm tired.)

jmverville said:
I guess single tribes of human-like groups must have been isolated and together long enough to begin their evolution together and eventually spawn more and more and more human-like kids until eventually we got here.

Possibly; it would be interesting to read studies on the topic.

jmverville said:
There was probably a great deal of inbreeding occurring at thsi time. Although animals do sometimes have instincts against inbreeding many dogs don't. I do not know about human-like species (and apparently a lot of scientists don't).

Certainly there's still a great deal to learn. That's why science is so exciting.

jmverville said:
Overall this could be just really irrelevant.

I guess that depends on what you're suggesting it's relevant or irrelevant to.
 
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YamiB

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If I had a sister it would be possible though either way I think it would pretty futile since as previously said there wouldn't be enough genetic diversity. Since I consider child-parent relationships worse than relations between siblings it would end with just my mother and me.
 
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TeddyKGB

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No- there would be insufficient genetic diversity. Not a good legacy for the future.
I know that cheetahs (sp?) bottlenecked to one breeding pair at some point, but they have more young more frequently. Humans are much slower to reproduce so there is less variation over more time.
Genetic diversity is probabilistic; maladaptive genetic conditions are not guaranteed to result from incestuous unions. Further, the hypothetical did not specify a number of offspring.
 
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HaloHope

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A mystery virus has wiped out the world. Except, that is, you and either your brother or sister, or if you haven't got a brother or sister, I suppose you'll have to imagine your mum or dad. It seems you must be resistant to the virus that has killed everyone else off. My question is, do you keep the human race going, by sleeping with your sister or brother or is this the end for humans?

Edit: Oh, and there are no Turkey Basters to hand.

Nope

COuldnt do it.
 
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stan1980

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Nope

COuldnt do it.

Same here. I'm not too bothered about keeping the human race going anyway. The planet would probably be a better place without us anyway, and you never know, give it several million years, and maybe another animal can achieve the dizzy heights humans have reached in terms of technology and stuff.
 
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Archer93

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Genetic diversity is probabilistic; maladaptive genetic conditions are not guaranteed to result from incestuous unions. Further, the hypothetical did not specify a number of offspring.

Not guaranteed, no, but it's highly probable. Although the extra fingers would come in handy for playing music....

The hypothetical did imply that the purpose would be to continue the human race, so it suggests that we'd need to produce enough offspring for the generations to come. The fewer children, though, the more reinforcement of all genes, positive and negative.
And less scope to cull out obvious problems before they continue through the line, a la Egypt.

I've been dealt a pretty good hand genetically- no breast cancer, Altzimers (sp?), no Parkinson's in my mother's line but my father's father had it, no tendency to bloodclots or any other genetic problem going back several generations on each side, but there could well still be some problematic recessive genes kicking around. It just seems too risky to be advisable.
 
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