Adventists affirm Mark 1:15 regarding Dan 9 and the 70 weeks prophecy and pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Dan 7

[tall73]

Athanasius, On the Incarnation of the Word

But on this one point, above all, they shall be all the more refuted, not at our hands, but at those of the most wise Daniel, who marks both the actual date, and the divine sojourn of the Saviour, saying: “Seventy weeks are cut short upon thy people, and upon the holy city, for a full end to be made of sin, and for sins to be sealed up, and to blot out iniquities, and to make atonement for iniquities, and to bring everlasting righteousness, and to seal vision and prophet, and to anoint a Holy of Holies; and thou shalt know and understand from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Christ the Prince” 3. Perhaps with regard to the other (prophecies) they may be able even to find excuses and to put off what is written to a future time. But what can they say to this, or can they face it at all?

 

[The Liturgist]

While Bob indicated we could not see the Liturgist's points without him quoting the text, I will demonstrate that is not the case.

Here is the first statement the Liturgist made on Daniel 7.



Clearly the Liturgist relates the judgment scene to that time after the second coming when God Christ will judge.


Bob then stated:



and The Liturgist responded:



The Liturgist then indicates that the dream is not literal, but figurative, and therefore required interpretation by Daniel.

He also seems to have indicated that a literal hermeneutic is not the only approach and favors the Alexandrian over the Antiochan school, but we can save that for another time.

To summarize, he seems to focus more on the interpretation than the specifics of the vision. Hence he sees the judgment as taking place after Jesus' coming, and being the judgment on the righteous and the wicked.

Likely these sections are in mind:


21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.


He appears to interpret "The Ancient of Days came" to indicate the coming of the Lord, at which point the judgment ensues.

Notice also that this statement extends to the time when the saints possess the kingdom. So it would extend beyond the judgment of the righteous, etc to the time of the removal of all things that defile from the kingdom.

Now while I had been looking at aspects of the vision that indicate possible coinciding of the courtroom judgment with the trampling of the beast and persecution of the saints, he makes an interesting point that the explanation seems not to do so.

The persecution of the beast stops when the judgment comes.

And we see the same later in the chapter:

25
He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[j] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

26
‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27
Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’


In support of the view of The Liturgist I would put forward some other possibly related texts:

The coming of the Son of Man is said to be with the clouds of heaven.

“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!"

Adventists interpret this as happening in the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary.

However, the statement of Jesus to the high priest at his trial appears to reference this moment:

Matthew 26:62 And the high priest arose and said to Him, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?” 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” 64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


The high priest would not be in the most holy place of heaven, but will be there to see Jesus in His glory, coming with the clouds of heaven, and sitting at the Right Hand of Power:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

These texts then may indicate that the coming of Jesus with the clouds is a reference to the second coming, and to the judging of the living and dead before the throne.


Moreover, in Jude we see the following:

Jude 14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”


The language of the Lord coming with ten thousands of His holy ones to execute judgment also hearkens back to Daniel 7:


Daniel 7:10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.

The statement by Enoch, quoted by Jude has apparent reference to the judging of "all", including the "ungodly". This would not describe the Adventist IJ which was not on "all" but only on the professed followers of God. But it would describe the judgment before God's throne where all are judged.


The main difference with my view is that he de-emphasizes the vision, and emphasizes the explanation. And I can see some sense to that. The advantage of his view is it ties to the texts above.

But either way we both agree that the judgment of individuals is described in plain texts, and happens in person, before the judgment seat of Christ.


1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Romans 14 10b For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’44 “Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

When the Lord returns He will examine His servants. They are judged before Him.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Thank you for this intervention my friend. You clearly understand the point I was making, and I suspect other people understood it as well, but for whatever reason they preferred to argue over my personal religious conviction that I should not, as a clergyman, quote the scriptures directly in this context, while ignoring the fact that I also made it clear I could refer to the text by chapter and verse number, or by description, or in the event of quoting a scripture that someone has no knowledge of, all of which making quoting the text in a polemic discussion uneccessary, particularly in light of the fact that ChristianForums has an excellent system wherein if you enter a scriptural passage with the book title, chapter and verse number, it will link you to a quote to it.

For example, without quoting them, I can cite Galatians 1:8-9 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15 , which together with the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 are the basis for us differentiating between the Apostolic Tradition, which is holy, and the tradition of the Pharisees, which is not holy as far as Christianity is concerned, but which is regarded as holy in Judaism, however, our Lord condemned that tradition in Mark 7:13, which most people agree is not a condemnation of Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy, because the broader context of Mark 7 makes it clear that our Lord was interacting with the Pharisees who promulgated that tradition and the Scribes who would compile it into the Mishnah, and later on, the Geonim who would derive the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmuds from the Mishnah, and still later, Maimonides and Joseph Caro with their Mishneh Torah and Sulchan Aruch codifying Jewish law, and the Zohar published (and probably written by) Moses de Leon, which mysticized it into the emanationist syetem of Kabbalah, which is rather far removed from traditional Christian theology.*

Ergo, the entire argument that I was ignoring the text because I refused to provide inline quotes of the Scriptural verses in my post is at best a red herring and at worst an argumentum ad hominem. Concordantly, I expect such discussion about my writing style to cease, since while I admit my posts can be challenging for some to read, since my friend @tall73 has provided what amounts to a translation, there is no justification for any continued discussion of my own religious convictions regarding appropriate use of the actual text of the scripture, which I regard as sacred, but which I can refer to using chapter and verse numbers as needed.

Rather the discussion should focus on my argument concerning Daniel 7, that being that Nebuchadnezzar’s dream cannot be interpreted literally even if one is committed to a literal-historical interpretation, since a literal reading of the text of Daniel 7 makes it clear that Nebuchadnezzar’s dream was itself symbolic, and required the interpretation of St. Daniel the Prophet in order to make it literally comprehensible. And it is my firm opinion that since St. Daniel the Prophet did interpret the dream for us, having been granted that ability by God, we are not in a position to reinterpret the dreams of Nebuchadnezzaar, for us to do so would presuppose that we had equal or greater prophetic ability than St. Daniel, and furthermore, would challenge the doctrine of divine immutability and scriptural infallibility, since it would suggest that the dream of Nebuchadnezzar meant had one meaning in antiquity, and additional and/or different meanings at present.

*Or for that matter, the theology of those forms of the Hebrew religion which were unrelated to the Pharisaical movement, such as the Beta Israel (the Ethiopian Jews), the Karaite Jews, and the Samaritans, who are not Jewish but who rather claim descent from Ephraim and Manessah, and whose religion looks a lot like Karaitism and the Beta Israel religion and like what we would expect First Temple and Second Temple Judaism to look like based on the influence of the hieratic Sadducees.

 

[The Liturgist]

Athanasius, On the Incarnation of the Word

But on this one point, above all, they shall be all the more refuted, not at our hands, but at those of the most wise Daniel, who marks both the actual date, and the divine sojourn of the Saviour, saying: “Seventy weeks are cut short upon thy people, and upon the holy city, for a full end to be made of sin, and for sins to be sealed up, and to blot out iniquities, and to make atonement for iniquities, and to bring everlasting righteousness, and to seal vision and prophet, and to anoint a Holy of Holies; and thou shalt know and understand from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Christ the Prince” 3. Perhaps with regard to the other (prophecies) they may be able even to find excuses and to put off what is written to a future time. But what can they say to this, or can they face it at all?

The Patristic quotes you just supplied us with, from the likes of St. Irenaeus, St. Basil the Great, St. Augustine of Hippo, St. Jerome, Origen Adimantius, Eusebius of Caesarea, St. Justin Martyr, St. Hippolytus, and Tertullian, are excellent, and of particular excellence is this quote from St. Athanasius, who I privately regard as the most important Early Church Father in terms of the role he played shaping modern Christianity, by closing the door on Arianism and stressing Incarnational theology, and using the ascetic experience of the proto-monastic hermit St. Anthony to explore the ways in which the devil attacks us through temptation, and of course, by defining our 27 book New Testament canon. You just can’t lose when quoting St. Athanasius. Whereas some Early Church Fathers expressed doctrinal views which were later deemed erroneous, for example, the chiliasm of St. Justin Martyr, or the semi-universalist belief in Apokatastasis, which is problematic insofar as it is a kind of monergism, expressed by St. Gregory of Nyssa and Origen, and in some cases, a few Early Church Fathers embraced heresies, for example, Tertullian, who, despite having coined the Latin word “Trinitas” which became extremely theologically important as a way of expressing the unity of the three persons of the Godhead, was driven by a moral absolutism that denied the possibility of the forgiveness of sins committed post-Baptism, fell into the spiritual trap presented by the Montanist cult, led by Montanus who blasphemously claimed to be the Paraclete, in the case of St. Athanasius, of the writings of his which have survived, which I believe amount to all of them, I am not aware of a single theologically erroneous or controversial statement, at least as far as the traditional liturgical churches such as the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the Roman Catholics, the Assyrians, Anglicans and Lutherans are concerned.

But of course even St. Athanasius was not perfect; for example, his proposed Old Testament canon was never adopted outside of the Church of Alexandria, where I believe both the Copts and the Alexandrian Greeks subsequently modified it to correspond with the contents of the Septuagint and Coptic translations thereof, and additionally relatively few people in the history of his church have attempted to use the Shepherd of Hermas for purposes of catechesis, although I would argue the book could be used in such a way, and additionally there were many people who wanted that book in the New Testament canon, which St. Athanasius could not allow, as it was not of Apostolic provenance, but he could give a blessing for it to be used outside of church as a work of instruction, and I would argue that using it in that way is something we ought to do more of. So really, the only thing he proposed that we are aware of that was not entirely successful was his Old Testament canon, but this canon was not dramatically different from the canons actually in use at present, both by those who accept and reject the deuterocanonical books.

Of course, St. Basil the Great, who you also quoted, along with St. Gregory Naziansus, also known as St. Gregory the Theologian, and St. John Chrysoston, and St. Cyril of Alexandria, and St. Ambrose of Milan, are all extremely important fourth and fifth century Church Fathers, and St. Augustine of Hippo, not to be confused with the later missionary to the Angles, St. Augustine of Canterbury, is, like his namesake, very important in the Western Church.

 

[tall73]

Cyril of Jerusalem, On the words Incarnate and Made Man

But we seek still more clearly the proof of the time of His coming. For man being hard to persuade, unless he gets the very years for a clear calculation, does not believe what is stated. What then is the season, and what the manner of the time? It is when, on the failure of the kings descended from Judah, Herod a foreigner succeeds to the kingdom? The Angel, therefore, who converses with Daniel says, and do thou now mark the words, And thou shalt know and understand: From the going forth of the word for making answer and for the building of Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince are seven weeks and three score and two weeks

 

[tall73]

Aphrahat, Select Demonstrations Of Christ the Son of God.

But, thou fool, the prophets suffer thee not to say that Christ has not yet come; for Daniel confutes thee,10661066 Dan. ix. 26, 27. saying:—After sixty-two weeks shall Messiah come and shall be slain.

 

[Gary K]

You already started out by changing the entire nature of the type in the first place, from what Scripture says.

From the Adventist fundamental belief on the Sanctuary:

In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment

Instead of what Leviticus 16 describes the High Priest as actually doing when He goes into the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement you have a judgement of individual cases, investigation of books, etc. None of that matches the text. Here is what the text says the high priest does when entering the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement:

Leviticus 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. 16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 There shall be no man in the tabernacle of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself, for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel.

The High Priest in the Most Holy Place applies cleansing blood to make atonement for the sanctuary and for all the assembly of Israel.

There is no reference to books, to investigation, or to individual cases. It is a corporate provision for the whole camp.

It is outside where those who do not afflict themselves are cut off from the camp. But there is no investigation work being done in the type by the High Priest.

Jesus provided that entry by means of blood into God's presence for us in the first century. Now we accept it or not, and are cut off or not.

Hebrews 1:3b When He had by Himself made purfication of sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the holies once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

9:23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself

The text says Jesus entered once for all, by means of blood. That won't be happening again, because it already happened. So Ellen White's vision of the door for the first time being opened to the Most Holy Place is wrong:

(Review and Herald, August 1, 1849 par. 2)

This door was not opened, until the mediation of Jesus was finished in the Holy Place of the Sanctuary in 1844. Then, Jesus rose up, and shut the door in the Holy Place, and opened the door in the Most Holy, and passed within the second vail, where he now stands by the Ark; and where the faith of Israel now reaches. (Review and Herald, August 1, 1849 par. 2)

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the holy places once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Entry was not "by means of" blood into the first compartment of the sanctuary. And goats blood only went into the sanctuary on two occasions, the inauguration, and the Day of Atonement.

And here Jesus did it once for all, in the first century. There will be no more entries.

Jesus already entered into God's presence for us:

9:24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us

Jesus was speaking to His to His disciples and the end of the world and does something very peculiar. He interrupts those prophecies and tells two parables. The parable of the talents and the parable of the 10 virgins. I don't think it's insignificant because Jesus never did things at random and without a specific reason. Why do you think He did this?

 

[tall73]

In support of the view of The Liturgist I would put forward some other possibly related texts:

The coming of the Son of Man is said to be with the clouds of heaven.

“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!"

Adventists interpret this as happening in the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary.

However, the statement of Jesus to the high priest at his trial appears to reference this moment:

Matthew 26:62 And the high priest arose and said to Him, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?” 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” 64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


The high priest would not be in the most holy place of heaven, but will be there to see Jesus in His glory, coming with the clouds of heaven, and sitting at the Right Hand of Power:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

These texts then may indicate that the coming of Jesus with the clouds is a reference to the second coming, and to the judging of the living and dead before the throne.


Moreover, in Jude we see the following:

Jude 14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”


The language of the Lord coming with ten thousands of His holy ones to execute judgment also hearkens back to Daniel 7:


Daniel 7:10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.

The statement by Enoch, quoted by Jude has apparent reference to the judging of "all", including the "ungodly". This would not describe the Adventist IJ which was not on "all" but only on the professed followers of God. But it would describe the judgment before God's throne where all are judged.

Other possible allusions

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 8:38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

 

[tall73]

Jesus was speaking to His to His disciples and the end of the world and does something very peculiar. He interrupts those prophecies and tells two parables. The parable of the talents and the parable of the 10 virgins. I don't think it's insignificant because Jesus never did things at random and without a specific reason. Why do you think He did this?

I decline to at this time answer your inquiry. If you have something to say about it, by all means do so, and those who wish may discuss it.

 

[tall73]

I am going to quote a bit from my earlier post here at length so that it is clear what Bob is responding to:

tall73 said:

Now Bob, it is also pretty clear you have not addressed a number of plain quotes from the text posted again and again.

You only addressed the first sentence clause of this, but ignored the rest.

1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Judgment is when the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden, and disclose the purposes of the heart. AND at that time each receives commendation.

Romans 14 10b For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

We will stand before the judgment seat, not be absent as in the Adventist IJ. We kneel, bow, confess, and give an account, which cannot happen in the IJ, because per Ellen White we won't even know when our case comes up or when the whole judgment is finished until it is too late.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

WE appear before the judgment seat of Christ, and not just in spirit, because we RECEIVE according to what we have done.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’44 “Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Here all are brought before His throne, some object, but He points to their record. This is a direct reference to the throne of judgment, and it is in person, not like the Adventist IJ.

Matthew 25:14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’ 26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

When the Lord returns He will examine His servants. They are judged before Him.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Here you say this answers to the Adventist IJ, but it does not. In the Adventist IJ you wouldn't even know your name was coming up. But here they list what they have done in His name, give an account, and He responds.


Here is Bob's answer. He begins by addressing the broad outline of his view. Then he touches on a response to how the texts I presented are claimed (by me) not to be in line with the Adventist ivestigative judgment.

1. Bad deeds Rom 6:23 get the lake of fire of Rev 20.

We agree that some go to the lake of fire. All have sinned, but the deciding criteria regarding the lake of fire is found in verse 15

Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

2. The judgment is out of books in both Dan 7 and Rev 20 - and deals with the details of each case,

You supplied "and deals with the details of each case in Daniel 7, as already shown by your need to refer to Rev. 20 to show what judgment on indvidual cases looks like. It doesn't say it. And the texts you are addressing here show it happening after Jesus' coming.

Now if of course we take @The Liturgist's view then it would deal with every case, because that would be after Jesus' coming. I am still weighing that aspect in light of his comments.

3. When the Son of man comes - He raptures the saints as we see in Rev 14:14 and then slays all the wicked.

There seems to be some inference going on, but we can leave that aside for the moment.

Dan 7 describes NO courtroom deliberation event at the vs 27 Advent. Only when all that court room action is over and judgment is passed in favor of the saints - is the Advent event in Dan 7:27 brought in.

Of course @The Liturgist is arguing the whole courtroom scene happens at the advent.

For my view the judgment referenced in Daniel 7 is on the beasts and the horn, and the saints, where the beasts have their dominion stripped and the court rules in favor of the saints, relieving them from the persecution they were undergoing. I do not see a referenced judgment of any individual cases in Daniel 7, as the saints are referred to as a group, and the nations are referred to as beasts.

On the other hand, I am considering @The Liturgist's viewpoint based on other texts that I have been looking at.

And I am considering your view. However, the aspect that needs to be addressed is the various texts that do show judgment at the 2nd Advent.

In the Liturgist's scenario the whole scene and explanation is referring to that.



In regards to Bob respoinding to the elements not in line with the Adventist IJ he says:

BY FAITH - we are there -- today

And even today we argue "WE ARE seated with HIM in heavenly places"

This was already addressed at length. The texts indicate that we appear, kneel, bow, give an account, confess, and receive reward from God.

I noted that Bob indicating we are seated in the heavenly realms--which is true-- in Scripture, does not however deal with the description of the texts.

Being seated in heavenly places, and having access to the throne of grace, and being able to come boldly into the holies indicate our access to Christ through what He has done.

But, Ellen white, in spelling out the Adventist IJ rules out the notion that we are in heaven kneeling, confessing, bowing, or receiving a reward.

In fact, per Ellen White the scenes are passing above, and we don't even know when the cases pass to the living, or when the decision has been made:

----
Great Controversy:

The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon—none know how soon—it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour's admonition: "Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is."

The righteous and the wicked will still be living upon the earth in their mortal state—men will be planting and building, eating and drinking, all unconscious that the final, irrevocable decision has been pronounced in the sanctuary above.

Silently, unnoticed as the midnight thief, will come the decisive hour which marks the fixing of every man's destiny, the final withdrawal of mercy's offer to guilty men.

While the man of business is absorbed in the pursuit of gain, while the pleasure lover is seeking indulgence, while the daughter of fashion is arranging her adornments—it may be in that hour the Judge of all the earth will pronounce the sentence: "Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.
---

She indicates we are unaware of when this judgment is happening. Moreover, by definition professed but not actual followers of God would not be seated in the heavenly places to start with. But they are judged as well in the various texts.

So per Ellen White's description we could not be confessing, kneeling, bowing, receiving reward, etc.

The reason I quote Ellen White is to represent the Adventist view, since they hold her writings to be inspired. And in the case of Bob I have never found a statement of hers he disagrees with. If we have now found one he can let me know.

So Bob, you are back to addressing the texts that describe judgment at Jesus' coming.

 

[tall73]

Sadly you are not being accurate ... again.

I page after page I say that the axe falls on the wicked at the Advent of Christ... it is also called "dominion taken away"

Bob, the taking of dominion is done by the court:

‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

This does not match your earlier statement:

BobRyan said:
The only issue in the court is related to saints -


That is clearly not the case. The court takes away dominion.

‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

We agree the beast is destroyed at Jesus' coming. IF you keep going with your logic you might wind up agreeing with @The Liturgist ! He sees the court happening on earth, which would match your timing!

But the text says the court is dealing with the saints

It deals with both.

‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

so no "judgment passed against the wicked nations" in the entire chapter ... as much as you seem to have needed it.

Of course there is because they have their dominion taken away.

There never was a possible "judgment passed in favor of the wicked" option under consideration - as we both know.

Bob, the widow asked for justice against her adversary, and even the unjust judge eventually granted it. The cause of the saints in this passage is just. And God is a just Judge. So of course we do not see judgment passed in favor of wicked nations. We see judgment passed in favor of the saints, and we see the dominion taken of the wicked nations BY THE COURT.

‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

No doubt Daniel was amazed at how much wickedness the wicked were allowed to do -- but never does he express confusion as to whether being wicked was a "good thing or a bad thing" such that some court would have to figure that tough one out.

And God judges the wicked, even using books, as even you admit. And here the court took the dominion of the beasts, and the little horn.

I don't see how this is even a little bit confusing

It is not confusing. The court did this:

‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

It even said the court did this, in the text.

As I keep saying God destroys the wicked at the Advent in in vs 27

This just isn't that hard.

But in vs 22 "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" and only THEN is action taken against the wicked nations.

I could post this 20 more times if you like - but it seem to have lost its point.

You could and may post it 20 more times. But I will just post what you keep denying that the court, the same court, also did this:

‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

So the court was not just dealing with the saints.

Now either that court was in heaven and pre-advent, or as @The Liturgist alleges it was on earth, post advent.

But either way the court did both actions.

All the beasts had their dominion stripped. And that means the judgment is not just on the professed followers of God.

 

[The Liturgist]

Now either that court was in heaven and pre-advent, or as @The Liturgist alleges it was on earth, post advent.

Actually I am not sure I allege that; rather, I dispute the existence of the court as an actual literal tribunal and see it rather as symbolic of the Last Judgement. Considering Christ is omniscient, when he assumes the dread judgement seat, his decisions are likely to be instant, perfect, and impossible to argue with owing to their perfection.

 

[tall73]

Actually I am not sure I allege that; rather, I dispute the existence of the court as an actual literal tribunal and see it rather as symbolic of the Last Judgement. Considering Christ is omniscient, when he assumes the dread judgement seat, his decisions are likely to be instant, perfect, and impossible to argue with owing to their perfection.

Thank you for the clarification.

I certainly agree Christ knows His own sheep, as the Scriptures say. And this was one reason that folks like James White (Ellen's Husband) put forth for initially rejecting the idea of an investigative judgment being necessary, as a slightly different version was actually proposed by some MIllerites pre-1844. Even as late as 1847 James White was publishing statements that argued against it.

I think at the least the various texts indicate the presence of the heavenly host repeatedly, and the revealing of secrets on that day. So I have no issue with those present looking on and seeing the justice of God, and in that way participating. But I agree that God's justice is not in question, especially since the texts indicate all bow, and confess.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Actually I am not sure I allege that; rather, I dispute the existence of the court as an actual literal tribunal and see it rather as symbolic of the Last Judgement. Considering Christ is omniscient, when he assumes the dread judgement seat, his decisions are likely to be instant, perfect, and impossible to argue with owing to their perfection.

Yes, He could do that if He wanted to, He could have also cast Judgement on Lucifer the moment he sinned in heaven, but didn’t do that because God is a God of love and allows for His creation to choose to love Him. Just like if He didn’t open the books before the Second Coming and didn’t allow His creation to understand why He is casting judgement, He wouldn’t be the just God that He is. Which is why Judgement is before as shown by scripture….


Dan 7:10 A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.

Dan 12:1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

Rev 3:5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.

Fates are sealed at His Second Coming because the books were previously opened and evaluated like any fair Judge would do,

Rev 22:11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

 

[tall73]

Just like if He didn’t open the books before the Second Coming and didn’t allow His creation to understand why He is casting judgement, He wouldn’t be the just God that He is. Which is why Judgement is before as shown by scripture

I am sure if any heavenly onlookers had questions about the books they had plenty of time to inquire:

Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

But that would be resolved anyway when the secrets of the heart are revealed at Jesus' coming, and people bow, and kneel and confess.

1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Judgment is when the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden, and disclose the purposes of the heart. AND at that time each receives commendation.

Romans 14 10b For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

We will stand before the judgment seat, not be absent as in the Adventist IJ. We kneel, bow, confess, and give an account, which cannot happen in the IJ, because per Ellen White we won't even know when our case comes up or when the whole judgment is finished until it is too late.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

WE appear before the judgment seat of Christ, and not just in spirit, because we RECEIVE according to what we have done.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’44 “Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Here all are brought before His throne, some object, but He points to their record. This is a direct reference to the throne of judgment, and it is in person, not like the Adventist IJ.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

In the Adventist IJ you wouldn't even know your name was coming up. But here they list what they have done in His name, give an account, and He responds.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I am sure if any heavenly onlookers had questions about the books they had plenty of time to inquire:

Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

But that would be resolved anyway when the secrets of the heart are revealed at Jesus' coming, and people bow, and kneel and confess.

1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Judgment is when the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden, and disclose the purposes of the heart. AND at that time each receives commendation.

Romans 14 10b For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

We will stand before the judgment seat, not be absent as in the Adventist IJ. We kneel, bow, confess, and give an account, which cannot happen in the IJ, because per Ellen White we won't even know when our case comes up or when the whole judgment is finished until it is too late.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

WE appear before the judgment seat of Christ, and not just in spirit, because we RECEIVE according to what we have done.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’44 “Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Here all are brought before His throne, some object, but He points to their record. This is a direct reference to the throne of judgment, and it is in person, not like the Adventist IJ.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

In the Adventist IJ you wouldn't even know your name was coming up. But here they list what they have done in His name, give an account, and He responds.

No the scriptures are not saying what you want them to.

When Jesus comes that is when the verdict will be given but as already shown through scripture it was determined beforehand. Much like a trial where the Judge hears both sides and then gives the verdict. The devil is the accuser Zechariah 3:1-2 Rev 12:10 which is why we have Jesus as the Mediator on our behalf. Which why there is a court because God is going to make a just decision prior to His coming that Judgment will be delivered at His Second Coming.

Daniel 7:9
“I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.

Rev 20: 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

Not only that the saints (saved) will also judge the wicked during the millennium. The dead in Christ rise first 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and this is will give the saints time to see and understand why not all of their loved ones were saved.

We serve a fair and justice God and His Judgement will be one of justice based on our own deeds.

This is not a salvation issue, so I am not going to continue to debate it, but you have not proved your case through scripture that God does not investigate judgement before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

 

[tall73]

No the scriptures are not saying what you want them to.

They say what they say. And you didn't address the ones I posted.

Jesus judges from the throne and interacts with people. They object, but He refutes them.

When Jesus comes that is when the verdict will be given but as already shown through scripture it was determined beforehand. Much like a trial where the Judge hears both sides and then gives the verdict.

Judgement of individuals was not demonstrated beforehand. And it is spelled out at Jesus' coming.

The devil is the accuser Zechariah 3:1-2 Rev 12:10 which is why we have Jesus as the Mediator on our behalf. Which why there is a court because God is going to make a just decision prior to His coming that Judgment will be delivered at His Second Coming.

Job, Zechariah, etc. Were prior to 1844, and Rev 12 shows Satan cast down following Jesus ascension, and the war in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Moreover, you are now apprently granting Satan omnipresence because Ellen White also has him answering prayers in the holy place:
----
Early Writings:

Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, a great High Priest, standing before the Father. On the hem of His garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. Those who rose up with Jesus would send up their faith to Him in the holiest, and pray, "My Father, give us Thy Spirit." Then Jesus would breathe upon them the Holy Ghost. In that breath was light, power, and much love, joy, and peace. [56]

I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne, and pray, "Father, give us Thy Spirit." Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy, and peace. Satan's object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God's children

And

And by rejecting the two former messages, they have so darkened their understanding that they can see no light in the third angel's message, which shows the way into the most holy place. I saw that as the Jews crucified Jesus, so the nominal churches had crucified these messages, and therefore they have no knowledge of the way into the most holy, and they cannot be benefited by the intercession of Jesus there. Like the Jews, who offered their useless sacrifices, they offer up their useless prayers to the apartment which Jesus has left; and Satan, pleased with the deception, assumes a religious character, and leads the minds of these professed Christians to himself, working with his power, his signs and lying wonders, to fasten them in his snare.

Rev 20: 11 [/B]Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

Yes, this shows individual judgment--after the second coming.

This is not a salvation issue, so I am not going to continue to debate it

Ellen White, Christ In His Sanctuary
-----
The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God. All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest. Otherwise it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time or to occupy the position which God designs them to fill. Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God

 

[tall73]

And even today we argue "WE ARE seated with HIM in heavenly places"

Eph 2:
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.


Heb 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith,

Apart from not knowing when our name comes up, so not being able to kneel, confess, etc in the sda ij, and the issue that non- actual, yet professed believers would not be seated spiritually in heaven, Egw also specifically says the righteous dead will not be there, being dead.

Great Controversy:
The righteous dead will not be raised until after the judgment at which they are accounted worthy of "the resurrection of life." Hence they will not be present in person at the tribunal when their records are examined and their cases decided.

 

[BobRyan]

Apart from not knowing when our name comes up, so not being able to kneel, confess, etc in the sda ij, and the issue that non- actual, yet professed believers would not be seated spiritually in heaven, EGW also specifically says ...

Let's start by reading the OP

(In light of many of the recent all-ellen-white-all-the-time-threads) I thought it would be a refreshing switch to have a Bible topic we all have the background info to discuss.

They say what they say. And you didn't address the ones I posted.

Meanwhile you avoid the OP and the topic of this thread

Ellen White, Christ In His Sanctuary
-----
The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment should be clearly understood...

So this is one of those 'NOT all Ellen White" threads - this one is on the Bible., just as the OP states --
If you can't make your case from the Bible - and you really MUST have Ellen White - please pick one of your Ellen White threads to do that.

Meanwhile - the actual OP for this thread is ... feel free to respond to the actual OP and to stay on topic

Dan 9 has a 70 weeks (490 days... becomes day-for-year 490 years) timeline predicting the coming of Christ.
Then in Mark 1:15 Christ says that the prediction of the first part - the 483 years is fulfilled with the start of His ministry

Mark 1:

9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit, like a dove, descending upon Him; 11 and a voice came from the heavens: “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”​

12 And immediately the Spirit *brought Him out into the wilderness. 13 And He was in the wilderness for forty days, being tempted by Satan; and He was with the wild animals, and the angels were serving Him.​

14 Now after John was taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”​

​

16 As He was going along the Sea of Galilee, He saw Simon and Andrew, the brother of Simon, casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen. 17 And Jesus said to them, “Follow Me, and I will have you become fishers of people.” 18 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him.​

In Mark 1 we see the start of Jesus' ministry and it includes the message that the Dan 9 timeline predicting the exact year of Christ's first coming - had been fulfilled.

Dan 9:
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. 25 So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing

We find information about that decree referenced above in Dan 9 --- in Ezra 6,7 and in Ezra 9k

Ezra 6 tells us it is a 3-part decree with Cyrus, Darius and Artaxerxes all contributing to it.
14 And the elders of the Jews were successful in building through the prophecy of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they finished building following the command of the God of Israel and the decree of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.

Ezra 7: 8-9 --- in 457 B.C.

8 And he ( Ezra the priest) came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh year of the king.(Artaxerxes king of Persia) 9 For on the first day of the first month he began to go up from Babylon; and on the first of the fifth month he came to Jerusalem, because the good hand of his God was upon him. 10 For Ezra had firmly resolved to study the Law of the Lord and to practice it, and to teach His statutes and ordinances in Israel.​

11 Now this is the copy of the letter which King Artaxerxes gave to Ezra the priest, the scribe, learned in the words of the commandments of the Lord and His statutes to Israel: 12 “Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest,​

(vs 15-23 treasures, gifts, gold to be sent with Ezra)


Ezra's prayer

Ezra 9:9 For we are slaves; yet in our bondage our God has not abandoned us, but has extended favor to us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us reviving to erect the house of our God, to restore its ruins, and to give us a wall in Judah and Jerusalem​

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Dan 9 is given as an "explanation" to the vision of Dan 8... because among other things - Dan 8 has no start date and Dan 9 gives an exact start date.
Dan 9 is the only OT prophecy with a timeline pointing to the start date of the Messiah's ministry.

So then the 490 years of Dan 9 starts in 457 B.C.
And the 2300 years (day for year) in Dan 8 start in 457 B.C.

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My title is - "Adventists affirm Mark 1:15 regarding Dan 9 and the 70 weeks prophecy and Investigative Judgment start in 1844"

But I can see that the Dan 7 "investigative judgment start in 1844" topic is too much for one thread so I am making it into its own thread.

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes, He could do that if He wanted to, He could have also cast Judgement on Lucifer the moment he sinned in heaven, but didn’t do that because God is a God of love and allows for His creation to choose to love Him. Just like if He didn’t open the books before the Second Coming and didn’t allow His creation to understand why He is casting judgement, He wouldn’t be the just God that He is. Which is why Judgement is before as shown by scripture….


Dan 7:10 A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.

Dan 12:1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

Rev 3:5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.

Fates are sealed at His Second Coming because the books were previously opened and evaluated like any fair Judge would do,

Rev 22:11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

Daniel 7:10 is an example of a dream of St. Daniel, which was subsequently interpreted by a figure we can assume to be an angel. Since the verse you cite is from the dream rather than the interpretation, it cannot by definition be interpreted literally.

Also regarding Daniel 12:1, it can be positively asserted and indeed proven from John 1:1-18 that St. Michael the Archangel is a created angel and not Christ our God, but rather an angel serving him. Therefore, passages concerning what St. Michael will do in the Eschaton cannot be used to assert what Christ Pantocrator will do in the Eschaton.

 

[The Liturgist]

Thank you for the clarification.

I certainly agree Christ knows His own sheep, as the Scriptures say. And this was one reason that folks like James White (Ellen's Husband) put forth for initially rejecting the idea of an investigative judgment being necessary, as a slightly different version was actually proposed by some MIllerites pre-1844. Even as late as 1847 James White was publishing statements that argued against it.

I think at the least the various texts indicate the presence of the heavenly host repeatedly, and the revealing of secrets on that day. So I have no issue with those present looking on and seeing the justice of God, and in that way participating. But I agree that God's justice is not in question, especially since the texts indicate all bow, and confess.

That’s quite interesting. How did Ellen White come to adopt a doctrine so different from that promoted by her husband? Also do Adventists officially regard James White or other Millerites besides Ellen G. White as being prophets?