Abortion and the Pro Choice; Catholic view point

[Cosmic Charlie]

To me, the logic that it is better to keep abortion legal to prevent greater problems is flawed. It kind of sounds like this:

"Yeah, genocide is bad, but the international community really shouldn't make laws prohibiting it. Making genocide illegal would result in concentration camps etc..., it's much better to do it the safer way with internationally-approved lethal injections for undesirable ethnic groups...there's less suffering that way."


Leaving abortion legal is an affront to the dignity of the Human person and a denial of their basic rights. The right of the child to live supercedes the right of the mother's personal convenience.

My logic is not that it creates greater problems illegally (which I beleive it does) but rather the making it illegal does not have an effect as to its rate per pregnancy.

Since making it illegal does almost nothing to stop it, then wasting time trying to make it illegal is stupid.

However, lets talk about this genocide thing for a minutes. There is more genoicide going on now then their was 40 years ago. Why ? Cause its illegal.

See, if the great nations of the world declare there is genecide going on, they are bound by treaty to come together and take action agaisnt it.

Nobody wants to do that so nobody ever declares the genocide is going on and people get away with it. If genocide was not illegal by treaty then a nation or two could take action against the genocide without invovling anyone else. Since most nations have no problem working unlaterally as long as the other great nations are willing to look the other way, we'd have a shot a ending geoncide in Africa.

As it is we don't stand a snowball's chance in hell.

Legality and morality are often af cross-purposes with each other, in america, if you want ot stop abortion, imo, you have to stop looking at the legal apperatis and starting looking a pregnant women. They are the key to the solution to the problem, not the Senate or the courts.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Legality and morality are often af cross-purposes with each other, in america, if you want ot stop abortion, imo, you have to stop looking at the legal apperatis and starting looking a pregnant women. They are the key to the solution to the problem, not the Senate or the courts.

Charlie, you make a good point. Society needs to stop stigmatizing the pregnant woman, and stop glamourizing sex if we have any hope of limiting abortions. Society has it backwards. The primary intent of intercourse is procreation, and the secondary effect is pleasure. This society has made the primary end to be pleasure, and the child into an annoyance. That is why we are were we are with this problem.
The question is, how do we go about addressing the problem? One of the major problems in combating this thinking is birth control, as it presupposes that the child is unwanted at the start. Artificial Birth control must be shown to be immoral, and pregnancy made the primary end of intercourse.

We need to show respect for women, and treat them as God intended rather than as toys for our pleasure.

But all of this is probably just a dream in this society. If attempted to be taught, it would be laughed to scorn. The main avenue we have left is using the legal authority. It may not lower the numbers, but it does not legitimize something that is horrible

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Charlie, you make a good point. Society needs to stop stigmatizing the pregnant woman, and stop glamourizing sex if we have any hope of limiting abortions. Society has it backwards. The primary intent of intercourse is procreation, and the secondary effect is pleasure. This society has made the primary end to be pleasure, and the child into an annoyance. That is why we are were we are with this problem.
The question is, how do we go about addressing the problem? One of the major problems in combating this thinking is birth control, as it presupposes that the child is unwanted at the start. Artificial Birth control must be shown to be immoral, and pregnancy made the primary end of intercourse.

We need to show respect for women, and treat them as God intended rather than as toys for our pleasure.

But all of this is probably just a dream in this society. If attempted to be taught, it would be laughed to scorn. The main avenue we have left is using the legal authority. It may not lower the numbers, but it does not legitimize something that is horrible

You didappoint me. "I agree with you and the way you want to solve this but its just too damn much work"

ok, you didn't exactly say that, but that the message.

What do you what ?That's the the question.

I want abortions to become rarer and rarer as time goes by.

Legal authority won't chage that.

What do you what ?

Evidentally you just want legitamate legal authority to say abortiton is wrong.

Well, that just isn't going to stop them, so want we accomplished ?

We get to pat ourselves on the back for winning.

Of coruse we've done nothing to stop abortions.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

The goal is to change society's attitudes. You say that legal authority is without effect in this situation. How would you go about it, specificly?

I think that legal authority is the first step in countering the thoughts that abortion is a right. What would you do different?

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

The goal is to change society's attitudes. You say that legal authority is without effect in this situation. How would you go about it, specificly?

I think that legal authority is the first step in countering the thoughts that abortion is a right. What would you do different?

You don't change sociality values, behaviors, attitudes or the belief of rights by legal athority. The war on drugs is an excellent example. The fact the administrative vice is still a department on all police forces in another.

How do you end abortion ? One pregnant women at a time.

Thats how its done, its the only way to do it. Anything else is just being lazy

 

[representative]

If we agree, despite our differences, that abortion is a negative thing, why don't we put aside our disagreements for a moment to work together to end abortion?

My question is, does anyone have any links or ideas on ways to contribute to reducing (and hopefully eliminating) the number of abortions?

soo I didn't come up with this myself... I heard it from a preacher in Minneapolis, and well... he heard it from the holy spirit so... I'll give a paraphrase of what was said

ok.... so every one is either pro-life or pro-choice... this division exists even among christians.... what is going on here?

a lesson from Jesus...

so the first century was full of political, social, and ethical questions... and well Jesus was a popular guy... so everyone wanted to know his stance on these issues...

a good example of this is "should we pay tax, yes or no?"

well that is what the kindom of the world has to offer, yes and no...

so the jews didn't want to pay tax to ceasar, well... because he wasn't their king, but some said they should out of fear of punishment (just a guess, really)

but what did jesus say... if it belongs to him... give it to him, right?

jesus did not submit to the world's line of thinking... yes and no... but he went with God's, with justice, with what was right.... he kept in the kindom of heaven

so abortion...

vote how you want... but as christians we belong to the kingdom of heaven, that is where or citizenship lies... do not be pro-life or pro choice, but put on love which is the perfect bond of unity...

what is meant by that is...

sacrifice your personal time and money to see that an unborn child can come to term... love the mother, teach her the gospel, show her that she can handle being a mother, babysit, buy groceries, pay rent, sit in a courtroom.... love love love love love...

do not say... I don't have the time or the money... A PERONS LIFE IS A STAKE... don't protest at abortion clinics, but hang out at them, meet people in need, and meet people's needs

you are the light of the world, you are the salt of the earth

 

[boughtwithaprice]

You don't change sociality values, behaviors, attitudes or the belief of rights by legal athority. The war on drugs is an excellent example. The fact the administrative vice is still a department on all police forces in another.

How do you end abortion ? One pregnant women at a time.

Thats how its done, its the only way to do it. Anything else is just being lazy

Why can't we do both? Make abortion illegal, and help pregnant women. Why must it be either or?

 

[dawnsday]

The majority of Pro-choicers that I run into take the views that you express in your OP, so that is no surprise. That does not make pro-choice right. It is still wrong to kill a baby, and the real choice is made at the decision to have intercourse. Sex is not a need or a right; it is a choice. The life of the mother excuse is a cop out. If a woman is in such ill health that a pregnancy could kill her, then she should not have sex.


I don't expect to change your mind, but pro-choice is against Catholic chruch teaching, and Cannot be promoted here in OBOB

The point here is not to argue whether or not abortion is okay. The point is that being pro-choice means that person believes it should be legal, not that it should be done, and to stop the name calling done by christian pro-lifers, because that is very unchristian, and though we may believe in our point strongly, we are still called to be respectful and thoughtful towards another persons view point, even at times when they are not.

 

[dawnsday]

Abortion is the murder of absolute innocence. If a mother chooses to murder her child in a back alley rather than a clinic, she does indeed put her life in danger, but you'll forgive me if I don't have a lot of sympathy. It is an abomination in God's eyes and the worst crime one can commit. It is not a "sad choice."

again, there it is, immediatly spouting off your view points and declaring your rightous beliefs...the OP, i'll repeat this, is NOT about whether abortion is right or wrong it is about the methods by which we state our views, and the attacks we put on those who disagree and how we as christians are called to a higher standard of respect.

 

[dawnsday]

Pro choicers are for abortion to be legalized hence the name pro abortion. They are for it. Mabe with differences of opinions such as when or how, nevertheless, at some point in time, they want the laws of their country to agree with it. The word "choice" hides the murderous act. Anything can be called choice. Even suicide. How about walking up to a guy and blowing his head off. That is a choice.

However, abortion can only mean one thing. To extinguish an innocent life no matter what the reason. To me, calling them pro abortionists is more fitting a name and is rightly applied.

you are out and out wrong there. you cannot put a definition to a belief which you yourself do not believe. a muslim cannot define your beliefs can they? a prochoice person is not always FOR abortion, but only for the legalization of it, or for the right of the woman to be the one to decide...many would always say "don't abort" while still voting to keep it legal...pro-abortion is a vulgar, immature and out right childish manuever to make pro-life sound better and pro-choice sound worse...it's a blatent attack on the person as opposed to attacking the act.

 

[dawnsday]

I'd respond, but this thread is about abortion and the forum rules don't allow us to discuss it.

again the op was not and is not about abortion being right or wrong it is about the manner in which we discuss it with others with different view points it's about how we should be respectful though we may vehemently disagree...
i believe the plethora of responses declaring one's view on the subject only validates my belief. we see abortion and immediatly attack...i can only suppose the op was not read thoroughly, otherwise it would be clear what i am saying here.

 

[dawnsday]

Okay, this whole dig just makes me frustrated, i read each and every post and all i am hearing is why your belief is right and then lets discuss why it right some more.

Once again...this is not about abortion this is about the methods we use when discussing it with an oppossing party, respectfully instead of ignorantly and with anger and judgement as is common. Nothing said of the pro-choice, as pro-life christians we MUST be respectful, thoughtful, etc, etc, like i have said multiple times.

ABORTION...that one word sends us flaring into self-rightous declarations and judgements, attacking whoever dare question us...maybe for once we should SHUT UP and LISTEN and maybe by learning about their reasoning, and really thinking about it and really caring about what they have to say we can finally start discussing this topic maturly and intelligently, through that gaining their respect and possibly helping them to see your side of the picture.

We're christians right? Well it's time to act like it at all times, especially when it's such a sensitive subject as abortion.

 

[Fantine]

Pro choicers are for abortion to be legalized hence the name pro abortion.

And yet there are many pro-lifers (most pro-lifers, sadly, that I know) who could be more accurately called 'pro-birth.'

Their voting patterns reflect a desire to cut budgetary spending for things like health care, vaccinations, and educational programs for children.

Their rigid judgmental attitude makes them believe that all children should be brought up in traditional SAHM families, and the only way we can ever accomplish this goal is to cut things like daycare and AFDC to force women into marriage and staying home. (I, too, believe that traditional SAHM families are desirable for children in their early years, but I don't think the way to encourage them is to force women into that choice. We have to help children in whatever environment they are in.)

It's easy to encourage a pregnant teen to have her baby and then vote for legislators who will ignore the needs of that baby if it is living in poverty. It is easy to encourage a woman with a deformed fetus to have that baby and then vote against programs that would allow that baby to reach its highest intellectual and physical potential.

I don't like to think of pro-lifers as hypocrites, but their voting patterns and behavioral patterns tell me otherwise.

 

[dawnsday]

my point has been overtaken by everyones inate need to blare their views on abortion, and other peoples views on abortion.

any one have a comment on what i said to start with if not, i won't check back.

 

[Fantine]

In terms of your semantic question, dawnsday, the posts have shown that pro-lifers think pro-choicers are "pro-abortion" even if the pro-choicers are trying hard to minimize abortion by eliminating the social conditions that drive women to desperate choices.

Similarly, there are people who think that the term "pro-life" is a misnomer when a pro-lifer's concern for the preborn baby ends at birth.

But the real reason why pro-choicers and pro-lifers can't work together is because, underneath it all, pro-lifers are 1) against contraception; 2) against the right of women to choose to have sex outside of marriage.

Many pro-lifers will even say that contraception CAUSES abortion, because without contraception, none of these women would be out having sex.....

Statistics show that in countries where contraception is easily obtainable, the abortion rate is 33% that of the U.S.

But when pro-choicers say that easier access to contraception and realistic biological sex education will eliminate abortions, the pro-lifers say, "our way or no way."

And yes, I do think that teenage abstinence is preferable (I also think it is rare.) And if we want to eliminate abortions, we have to recognize that fact, work beyond our labels, and pro-lifers and pro-choicers together, ENCOURAGE abstinence while PRESENTING an alternative.

 

[rnmomof7]

closed for mod review

 

[boughtwithaprice]

correct forum found according to rule 4.2

 

[Skripper]

Aside from the abortifacient nature of some contraception, the reason pro-lifers correctly assert that contraception “causes” abortion is due to the fact that so many abortions are the result of unintended pregnancies, which are themselves the result of contraceptive failures. Here are some statistics from Planned Parenthood’s own research arm:


The report placed great emphasis on the fact that 48 percent of pregnancies in the US are "unplanned." Of those unplanned pregnancies, 47 percent end in abortion, 40 percent are carried to full term, and 13 percent end in miscarriage. Advocates of abortion often argue that to decrease abortions, unintended pregnancies must be reduced through increased access to contraceptives. But the Guttmacher Institute's own research indicates that 53 percent of women who have unintended pregnancies used a contraceptive method during the month they got pregnant.

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=38639

Now, from some pro-life sources:

Their approach to “fighting” abortion is to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies by promoting various birth control methods (1) and by preaching the so called “safe sex.” However, these practices inevitable fail and unwanted pregnancies do result and their “need” for abortion is made

manifest. http://members.aol.com/johnprh/contraception.html

Speaking of the link between contraception and abortion, Dr. Siegfried Ernst, M.D., said: "The anti-baby pill has made it possible to separate, fundamentally and radically, the production of pleasure from the act of procreation. It thus automatically started the 'sexual revolution.' ... Having become 'safe,' sexual acts have multiplied as a result of
contemporary propaganda touting 'the right to a happy sexual life.' 'Accidents' have increased proportionately despite -- or has been in consequence of? -- the anti-baby pill. And those 'unwanted children' must logically, be removed by abortion."http://www.armyofgod.com/Contraception1.html

To support the argument that more responsible use of contraceptives would reduce the number of abortions, some note that most abortions are performed for "contraceptive purposes". That is, few abortions are had because a woman has been a victim of rape or incest or because a pregnancy would endanger her life, or because she expects to have a handicapped or deformed newborn. Rather, most abortions are had because men and women who do not want a baby are having sexual intercourse and facing pregnancies they did not plan for and do not want. Because their contraceptive failed, or because they failed to use a contraceptive, they then resort to abortion as a back-up. Many believe that if we could convince men and women to use contraceptives responsibly we would reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and thus the number of abortions. Thirty years ago this position might have had some plausibility, but not now. We have lived for about thirty years with a culture permeated with contraceptive use and abortion; no longer can we think that greater access to contraception will reduce the number of abortions. Rather, wherever contraception is more readily available the number of unwanted pregnancies and the number of abortions increases greatly.

http://www.goodmorals.org/smith4.htm



manifest. http://members.aol.com/johnprh/contraception.html

Speaking of the link between contraception and abortion, Dr. Siegfried Ernst, M.D., said: "The anti-baby pill has made it possible to separate, fundamentally and radically, the production of pleasure from the act of procreation. It thus automatically started the 'sexual revolution.' ... Having become 'safe,' sexual acts have multiplied as a result of
contemporary propaganda touting 'the right to a happy sexual life.' 'Accidents' have increased proportionately despite -- or has been in consequence of? -- the anti-baby pill. And those 'unwanted children' must logically, be removed by abortion."http://www.armyofgod.com/Contraception1.html

To support the argument that more responsible use of contraceptives would reduce the number of abortions, some note that most abortions are performed for "contraceptive purposes". That is, few abortions are had because a woman has been a victim of rape or incest or because a pregnancy would endanger her life, or because she expects to have a handicapped or deformed newborn. Rather, most abortions are had because men and women who do not want a baby are having sexual intercourse and facing pregnancies they did not plan for and do not want. Because their contraceptive failed, or because they failed to use a contraceptive, they then resort to abortion as a back-up. Many believe that if we could convince men and women to use contraceptives responsibly we would reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and thus the number of abortions. Thirty years ago this position might have had some plausibility, but not now. We have lived for about thirty years with a culture permeated with contraceptive use and abortion; no longer can we think that greater access to contraception will reduce the number of abortions. Rather, wherever contraception is more readily available the number of unwanted pregnancies and the number of abortions increases greatly.

http://www.goodmorals.org/smith4.htm

Advocates of abortion often argue that to decrease abortions, unintended pregnancies must be reduced through increased access to contraceptives. But the Guttmacher Institute's own research indicates that 53 percent of women who have unintended pregnancies used a contraceptive method during the month they got pregnant. </FONT>

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=38639

Their approach to “fighting” abortion is to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies by promoting various birth control methods (1) and by preaching the so called “safe sex.” However, these practices inevitable fail and unwanted pregnancies do result and their “need” for abortion is made

manifest. http://members.aol.com/johnprh/contraception.html

Speaking of the link between contraception and abortion, Dr. Siegfried Ernst, M.D., said: "The anti-baby pill has made it possible to separate, fundamentally and radically, the production of pleasure from the act of procreation. It thus automatically started the 'sexual revolution.' ... Having become 'safe,' sexual acts have multiplied as a result of
contemporary propaganda touting 'the right to a happy sexual life.' 'Accidents' have increased proportionately despite -- or has been in consequence of? -- the anti-baby pill. And those 'unwanted children' must logically, be removed by abortion."http://www.armyofgod.com/Contraception1.html


. . . back to a pro-choice source. The idea that contraception reduces the number of abortions is a myth. Even informed pro-choicers acknowledge the fact that “most abortions” are a result of failed contraceptives. This, too, is from a pro-choice source:

People are conflicted about abortion; it's a very emotional and difficult issue and polls reflect peoples' ambivalence towards it. Plus, misconceptions abound, thanks largely to anti-choice propaganda. The average person, while at least nominally pro-choice, tends to feel uncomfortable about abortion and often holds erroneous and uninformed beliefs about it. The most common myth is that women who have abortions are irresponsible or promiscuous. Some people lament abortion being "used as a form of birth control", wrongly presuming that abortion patients don't use contraception (most abortions result from failed contraception). http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/abortion-polls.shtml

Wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[CrystalBrooke]

But the real reason why pro-choicers and pro-lifers can't work together is because, underneath it all, pro-lifers are 1) against contraception; 2) against the right of women to choose to have sex outside of marriage.

1. true for the most part.
2. shouldnt all Christians be against that, pro life or not?

 

[InnerPhyre]

Fine. Let's discuss the terms. If you call yourself pro-choice, say that you hate abortion, but you think it's the mother's right to choose, that is the same as saying "I'm against the holocaust, but I don't want to tell the Nazis what they can and can't do."