A woman and her husband's difficult decision

[JackRT]

The question is not whether or not human tissue is present --- the question is whether or not a human person is present.

 

[SPF]

The question is not whether or not human tissue is present --- the question is whether or not a human person is present.

Correct, and thanks to advancements in science and biology, it’s nothing short of a biological fact that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization and begins a 25 year period of development. Yet at no point during our development are we not actually a human being.

Some people fallaciously discriminate against humans based upon the level of development, dependency, or location of residence.

 

[mcarans]

From a Jewish perspective :
"Jewish law does not share the belief common among abortion opponents that life begins at conception, nor does it legally consider the fetus to be a full person deserving of protections equal those accorded to human beings. In Jewish law, a fetus attains the status of a full person only at birth. Sources in the Talmud indicate that prior to 40 days of gestation, the fetus has an even more limited legal status, with one Talmudic authority (Yevamot 69b) asserting that prior to 40 days the fetus is “mere water.” Elsewhere, the Talmud indicates that the ancient rabbis regarded a fetus as part of its mother throughout the pregnancy.

the passage in the Talmud that refers to the foetus in the first trimester as ‘water’ almost certainly isn’t only refering to water as material liquid. It is seeing the foetus at this stage as a recapitulation of the chaos waters that the spirit of the Lord broods over at the beginning of Genesis. So it is referring to an act of creation in process, but not yet fully defined and not yet given life through breath."

This would probably have been the early Christian perspective.

 

[tturt]

God determines the time and place of our births:
-“And he made from one man every race of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted epochs and the fixed boundaries of the places where they would live;” (Acts 17:26)

He formed us:
-“For You formed my innermost parts; You knit me [together] in my mother’s womb” Psa 139:13
-“Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?” Mal 2;10

He gives us life each day:
-“This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.” (Psa 118:24)
-“The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.” Job 33:4
"I will put ligaments on you, place muscles on you, and cover you with skin. I will put breath in you, and you will live. Then you will know that I am Yahweh." Eze 37:6

Children are a gift from God and He has a plan for each one:
-'"...children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is his reward." PSA 127
-“For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.” Jer 29:11
-“who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time eternal,” II Tim 1:9
-“I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.” Psa 32:8
-“And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.” Isa 58:11

There are other Scriptures about these topics.

 

[SPF]

From a Jewish perspective :
"Jewish law does not share the belief common among abortion opponents that life begins at conception, nor does it legally consider the fetus to be a full person deserving of protections equal those accorded to human beings. In Jewish law, a fetus attains the status of a full person only at birth. Sources in the Talmud indicate that prior to 40 days of gestation, the fetus has an even more limited legal status, with one Talmudic authority (Yevamot 69b) asserting that prior to 40 days the fetus is “mere water.” Elsewhere, the Talmud indicates that the ancient rabbis regarded a fetus as part of its mother throughout the pregnancy.

the passage in the Talmud that refers to the foetus in the first trimester as ‘water’ almost certainly isn’t only refering to water as material liquid. It is seeing the foetus at this stage as a recapitulation of the chaos waters that the spirit of the Lord broods over at the beginning of Genesis. So it is referring to an act of creation in process, but not yet fully defined and not yet given life through breath."

This would probably have been the early Christian perspective.

The Jewish perspective also rejects the Divinity of Christ.... so there is that too.

 

[GodLovesCats]

The global population has grown from 1 billion in 1800 to 7.616 billion in 2018. Absent a very severe pandemic we aren't going to go extinct anytime soon.

The latter number should be considered evidence that the homo sapiens species is overpopulated and if most abortions were illegal, one result would be several million homeless suffering children.

 

[SPF]

one result would be several million homeless suffering children.

Can you support this claim?

 

[GodLovesCats]

Can you support this claim?

I have to look up the numbers for humans, but it has been known to be true about cats and dogs for ages. Do the math.

 

[SPF]

I have to look up the numbers for humans, but it has been known to be true about cats and dogs for ages. Do the math.

Yea.... humans aren’t cats and dogs, so I wouldn’t recommend making claims that well... you know are false.

 

[mcarans]

Yea.... humans aren’t cats and dogs, so I wouldn’t recommend making claims that well... you know are false.

The claim is false but probably not for the reason you think. If abortions were stopped completely then since most are done by the poorest in society then it stands to reason that you'd get more homeless suffering children. However that wouldn't happen because the abortions wouldn't stop, they'd just take place illegally instead which is why criminalising abortion won't have the effect advocates of it say they want.

 

[Albion]

To answer the question of the OP, no, there is actually no excuse for killing an unborn child--not the environment, the government of Vermont, or any other of the diversions this thread wandered into rather than face the facts of taking a life because giving birth would have been inconvenient for the mother.

 

[SPF]

The claim is false but probably not for the reason you think. If abortions were stopped completely then since most are done by the poorest in society then it stands to reason that you'd get more homeless suffering children. However that wouldn't happen because the abortions wouldn't stop, they'd just take place illegally instead which is why criminalising abortion won't have the effect advocates of it say they want.

As someone who is a foster parent and involved with DFCS, I can let you know that there are more Adults in America that want to and are available to adopt newborns than there are newborns.

And even if that weren’t true, your comments are completely and totally irrelevant to the question that I’m addressing which is the morality of abortion.

 

[GodLovesCats]

SPF, that may be true where you live, but not in all 50 states. Most likely not even every county in yours. It makes no sense to assume your life experience applies everywhere in America, including the poor ones that can't fund adoption agencies.

 

[SPF]

SPF, that may be true where you live, but not in all 50 states. Most likely not even every county in yours. It makes no sense to assume your life experience applies everywhere in America, including the poor ones that can't fund adoption agencies.

Its true in America.

 

[GodLovesCats]

It's true in America.

Even in parts of America where it is literally impossible to have adoption agencies for financial reasons? It is one thing for a lot of couples to want babies. Whether it is possible for them to connect with children's services that adopt out babies is another animal.

 

[SPF]

Even in parts of America where it is literally impossible to have adoption agencies for financial reasons? It is one thing for a lot of couples to want babies. Whether it is possible for them to connect with children's services that adopt out babies is another animal.

Any woman in America that gets pregnant and wants to put her baby up for adoption can find someone to adopt her child.

But even if nobody was willing to adopt, it would have no bearing upon the morality of abortion.

 

[GodLovesCats]

My question is how can she put her baby up for adoption if there is nobody to help? It is not like giving up a cat, which can be a friend to friend transaction.

 

[SPF]

My question is how can she put her baby up for adoption if there is nobody to help? It is not like giving up a cat, which can be a friend to friend transaction.

If you’re interested in how it works, feel free to do some research, but I would for my part prefer to stay on topic. But every woman in America who gets pregnant and is willing to carry their baby can find an adoptive parent if that’s their wish.

But with regards to abortion. The 98.5% of abortions committed for convenience reasons are immoral, and as Christians we should be more united on this position.

 

[Archivist]

Its true in America.

No, it isn’t. There is a demand for healthy white babies. Not so for black babies or disabled babies, nor is there a demand for older children. I was once a domestic hearing officer so I am familiar with the stats.

 

[SPF]

No, it isn’t. There is a demand for healthy white babies. Not so for black babies or disabled babies, nor is there a demand for older children. I was once a domestic hearing officer so I am familiar with the stats.

I was speaking of newborns, and older children are not newborns. And you’re wrong.