a question about speaking in tongues...

[JoabAnias]

Hey Joab,

Well I don't believe that John Salza operates in the charismatic gifts, especialy tongues. Let me just say why I believe that, becasue after I logged off a little while ago, this was really bothering me. I prayed hard, to put it mildly. hehe

okay so here is what the Lord revealed to me about it.

John said something that really shows where he is at in understanding the gift of tongues. He said:



okay so listen to what I believe that the Lord revealed to me: So if John has the gift of tongues, he must think that he is one of the holiest people! lol
So either he has the gift of tongues and the gift of pride or he doesn't have the gift of tongues. lol I think he just doesn't have the gift and is trying to teach something he hardly understands.

I don't think that he knows what is really understood about who can and who does receive the gift of tongues.

There are a few other things that I found on the site that bother me about his teaching on tongues. Don't get me wrong, I have used his website many times in helping to understand the teachings of the early church fathers and he has some good quotes there, but I think him trying to teach about tongues would be not getting it from the horses mouth.

It is kind of like asking a non-catholic to tell you what it is like being catholic. lol, maybe some truth would be there, but of course that truth would have some bias and misunderstanding.

Now you can ask a faithful catholic what it is like being catholic and you will probably get a better result.

Nowadays, everybody is a scholar. Even on things they have only read about! That is why I believe that the author of the site has a bias against tongues. He says some other things that are harmful to someone who is looking into the renewal too, and I guess I wouldn't recommend him to be a teacher on charismatic gifts. I don't know how deep that bias goes, but the fruit of reading his page could make someone not want to go to a prayer meeting. He speaks some fear into his readers on the gift of tongues, but there is no fear needed. Maybe discernment, but not teaching with fear.

I understand what your saying completely. I relate it entirely to the negatives I have seen in Pentacostal Churches and a couple of times even in the ccr and found it spot on about St Pauls warnings to the Corinthians. I would only recommend it for that purpose which is what I did.

That being said I do not think it negates the ccr in that it speaks about an important part of the truth that anyone involved with the ccr should be aware of to avoid confusion who God is not the author of.

The ccr is not perfected in structure and remains susceptable to what St. Paul teaches about the Corinthians as I have felt and seen it for myself which I must say left me personally confused over it for years as well as others I know who I consider very holy people.

I don't see anything said there instilling fear in me except the warnings of St. Paul where I think the focus should be.

I know this is something you must come to terms with but remember God isn't the author of confusion or contradictions. Only by coming to understand the warnings of Paul is the ccr going to attain the structure and protection of the Church it needs. Especially for the poorly orginized groups that get off the truth.

Sorry to seem a bit at odds tonight. Have you seen the time?

Peace brother.

 

[CatholicFlame]

Yes brother Joab, it was late when you wrote that.

Well Joab, I am really glad that you were sent to this website. I myself, you are probably going to find, am extremely devoted to prayer through the charismatic renewal. So you are going to get some of the other sides of the coin with me! I hope that we will not fight or at all hurt each others feelings in our talks because I consider you a brother truly and a fellow co-worker in the gospel. Working side by side with you in the other threads has been a real blessing for me. And I just hope that in this case, I will be able to show my appreciation to you for coming to join us at Christian forums.

And about your friends who have also left the renewal because of some verses, I hope that they too can receive consolation in this. Because it is truly sad to hear people who have left because of some verses that seem to be being misinterpreted. I am not sure if you see this, but in a way (of course not the same entirely) this is like when a catholic leaves the church after someone tells him that he is worshipping idols when it comes to statues. You can see how easy it is for someone to take scripture out of context.

So let's see here about this. You mentioned that you see some contraditions and confusion in the renewal and that you are basing this on some texts from St. Paul. I can see that actually the Lord has prepared the way in you to fix this problem because the part of scripture that we are talking about is one paragraph 1 Cor 14: 26-33 which ends with "God is not the author of confusion but of peace."

You are very right when you say that I must come to terms with this. If I am to really truly embrace the renewal, I should be able to understand that either we are wrong or we are right about the way in which we are worshipping when we pray in tongues together. Otherwise, these verses will convict me, unless there is some explanation and biblical exegesis.

I am glad to be able to learn this today. The Lord is indeed helping me as I type this.

So, here is the full scripture my brother:

So what is to be done, brothers? When you assemble, one has a psalm, another an instruction, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Everything should be done for building up.

If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three, and each in turn, and one should interpret. But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God. Two or three prophets should speak, and the others discern. But if a revelation is given to another person sitting there, the first one should be silent.

For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged.

Indeed, the spirits of prophets are under the prophets' control, since he is not the God of disorder but of peace.

The context of the verse seems to be that the spirits of prophets are under the prophets control and in particular, if someone speaks in a tongue, there should be an interpreter. But notice the context seems to be referring to the gift of speaking prophetic utterances in tongues and not the gift of praising the Lord in tongues. I don't know if you have ever been in a prayer meeting where someone speaks a prophetic utterance in tongues. It is like a person speaks out in tongues and everyone is silent. Everyone is waiting for an interpretation. Can you imagine if there was a prayer meeting where people would speak out like one at a time and everyone else would be silent and no interpretation ever comes? over and over like this? St. Paul would be like "Don't speak out if there is no one to interpret!" Add this example I just gave to that of the paragraph being in the context of using spiritual gifts to upbuid the church.

Now St. paul also speaks of a gift of tongues that is not for the upbuilding of the church but is for personal praise and communication with God, which no one can interpret. If there is really such a gift, that no one can iinterpret, why would st. paul say that someone should interpret that gift? He can't be referring to that gift in the verese above, because that gift cannot be interpreted.

I hope this is clearing some things up bro!

you said earlier that:

Saint Paul says tongue-speaking must be done for the edification of the Church 1 Cor. 14:5,26. This means that ecstatic utterances can also build up the body of Christ. Though Saint Paul also says they should be interpreted if spoken aloud. 1Co 14:28 And if there is no interpreter, let him be silent in the assembly, and let him speak to himself and to God.

This is the state of my ecstatic utterances and I believe they were the same with John Paul II and many other people I know personally. Though I must admit the hearing of these utterances built me up into a more profound prayer life at one point even though there was no-one available to interpret them. I believe when they are sincere they can still have this effect even though there is no interpretation.

Speaking in tongues should definately be done for the upbuilding of the church.

Even estatic utterances should be done for the upbuilding of the church.

However the next thing that you have said I hope that I helped make clearer in what I said earlier.

What you said next was proof that God has shown you what good it is that praising God together in tongues is: As the Lord has sworn, you shall know them by their fruits.

Joab you said:

the hearing of these utterances built me up into a more profound prayer life at one point even though there was no-one available to interpret them.

Couple that with the many stories of people hearing someone speaking in a language known to them when others are praising and the faith that they received through that, and you will know for sure that this is not disorder but a great sign of God's presence.

I hope that we can continue this, for I believe that the Lord wants us to keep talking about this together now.

peace to you brother, and may the Lord continue to bless you

P.S. can you tell me what else you see as contradictions in the renewal to the scriptures? You spoke of some untruths, can we here who belong to the renewal help you understand our devotions?

 

[CatholicFlame]

I just wanted to add an example of what we are doing in the renewal when we pray together in tongues as a group praising God.

pretend you were a baby christian. And someone says "Hey! you catholics are not supposed to pray the Our Father together! Jesus says that you should go into your room and pray in private to your heavenly father. And then He puts that in context with the Our Father prayer which He teaches right afterwards! You are not supposed to pray in Tongues together!"

hmmph

There are reaons why we catholics do this together. It is because of many many factors. And If I went into all the reasons why we pray the our Father together, it would take years to explain. But just know that it is ok with Jesus my friend. And the Church knows what we are doing, they have not said even once that we should stop praying in this way. Almost every conference has some statement from the bishop saying that He supports us.

There is more to add, even that even the best scripture scholar can not understand everything all at once.

"the Lord arises, He is enthroned in majesty."

and Joab, we need someone like you back in the renewal. Because you truly have a heart for God. And He is pleased that you strive to keep His commandments.

 

[JoabAnias]

And about your friends who have also left the renewal because of some verses, I hope that they too can receive consolation in this. Because it is truly sad to hear people who have left because of some verses that seem to be being misinterpreted. I am not sure if you see this, but in a way (of course not the same entirely) this is like when a catholic leaves the church after someone tells him that he is worshipping idols when it comes to statues. You can see how easy it is for someone to take scripture out of context.

I think your missing the point here brother. No one has left. While some have left certain cenacles it is because of scriptures that were ignored and as a result they are run poorly. None see the whole of the CCR itself as any less efficacious because of that. Some groups are run poorly and get out of hand which is what St. Paul speaks of. Wisdom and discernment should take precedance.

So let's see here about this. You mentioned that you see some contraditions and confusion in the renewal and that you are basing this on some texts from Paul

I thought I said I have seen some contradictions in some cenacles and that the renewal is susceptible to them if not properly organized.

I can see that actually the Lord has prepared the way in you to fix this problem because the part of scripture that we are talking about is one paragraph 1 Cor 14: 26-33 which ends with "God is not the author of confusion but of peace."

My life’s schedule doesn't allow me to participate any more. Though I know of many CCR groups and Charismatic priests I would gladly participate with. Please don't get me wrong, I am not bashing the CCR movement in the least.

You are very right when you say that I must come to terms with this. If I am to really truly embrace the renewal, I should be able to understand that either we are wrong or we are right about the way in which we are worshipping when we pray in tongues together. Otherwise, these verses will convict me, unless there is some explanation and biblical exegesis.

Exactly. Sometimes people try too hard to embrace the Spirit and don't let the Spirit move them while others resist. We are faulty creatures. I see the same thing with the rubrics and canons of the liturgy.

I am glad to be able to learn this today. The Lord is indeed helping me as I type this.

So, here is the full scripture my brother:

So what is to be done, brothers? When you assemble, one has a psalm, another an instruction, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Everything should be done for building up.

That’s great. The biggest obstacles I have encountered is pride both in myself and within groups. Especially back during the beginning of the new millennia. People were freaking out and trying to control others dude. The prophesies weren't of God at all. It wasn't good.

If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three, and each in turn, and one should interpret. But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God. Two or three prophets should speak, and the others discern. But if a revelation is given to another person sitting there, the first one should be silent.

For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged.

Indeed, the spirits of prophets are under the prophets' control, since he is not the God of disorder but of peace.

*The context of the verse seems to be that the spirits of prophets are under the prophets control and in particular, if someone speaks in a tongue, there should be an interpreter. But notice the context seems to be referring to the gift of speaking prophetic utterances in tongues and not the gift of praising the Lord in tongues. I don't know if you have ever been in a prayer meeting where someone speaks a prophetic utterance in tongues. It is like a person speaks out in tongues and everyone is silent. Everyone is waiting for an interpretation. Can you imagine if there was a prayer meeting where people would speak out like one at a time and everyone else would be silent and no interpretation ever comes? over and over like this? St. Paul would be like "Don't speak out if there is no one to interpret!" Add this example I just gave to that of the paragraph being in the context of using spiritual gifts to upbuid the church

You have grasped it! By the way, the last group I went to, a message was given and interpretation was asked for and never given because of pride.

St. Paul also speaks of a gift of tongues that is not for the upbuilding of the church but is for personal praise and communication with God, which no one can interpret. If there is really such a gift, that no one can iinterpret, why would st. paul say that someone should interpret that gift? He can't be referring to that gift in the verese above, because that gift cannot be interpreted.

Its still for building up the Church. I bolded your quote above. That gift too is edifying the Church because its praise to God and edifying the individual. Paul never says it’s not ok to build ourselves up spiritually by praising God. No interpretation is needed here because none is expected. I pray in this form frequently by myself. In my mind I hear the language and my heart is raised to God and both knows what I mean. Amongst others with the same gift, speaking this aloud is no less edifying yet during the liturgy it might be. See what I mean?

You said:

Speaking in tongues should definately be done for the upbuilding of the church.

Even estatic utterances should be done for the upbuilding of the church.

I am re-iterating what St. Paul teaches who says speaking in tongues should be done for the building up of the Church.

1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself: but he that prophesieth, edifieth the church.

1Co 14:5 And I would have you all to speak with tongues, but rather to prophesy. For greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues: unless perhaps he interpret, that the church may receive edification.

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? When you come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a revelation, hath a tongue, hath an interpretation: let all things be done to edification.

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to believers but to unbelievers: but prophecies, not to unbelievers but to believers.

The CCR is building up the Church in the Spirit for those who attend the meetings just as raising ones hands to the heavens in Mass is. It’s under our control though.

Can you tell me what else you see as contradictions in the renewal to the scriptures? You spoke of some untruths, can we here who belong to the renewal help you understand our devotions?

No not really. I used to think that it would be nice if the Church would come up with a format to follow but then I realized you cannot really restrain this movement more than the Holy Scripture and Church already does. I find the members always well meaning people. The Corinthians Paul speaks of were well meaning. Good intentions aren't a guarantee of truth however.

Contradictions and untruths are going to happen. Its not the fault of the movement but of men. If you had ever seen what St. Paul describes the Corinthians doing then perhaps you would understand better. You probably won't ever see it in the CCR and would need to join a PentecostalChurch to do so. I had the experience of leasing and monitoring a K of C hall to a displaced PentecostalChurch for an extended period once that put St. Paul’s teaching into much better perspective for me.

1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in unlearned persons or infidels, will they not say that you are mad?

1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not or an unlearned person, he is convinced of all: he is judged of all.

Peace.

 

[JoabAnias]

Joab, we need someone like you back in the renewal.

I expect to attend again in due time.

Peace.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

Saint Paul says the gift will cease in 1 Cor. 13:8

1Co 13:8 Love never fails. But if there are prophecies, they will be caused to cease; if tongues, they shall cease; if knowledge, it will be caused to cease.

If I were to loose any gift but were to gain in Love then it would make no difference.

I love this scripture. No where does Paul say when these gifts will cease.
We know they have not ceased because they are not only in operation but with the newest wave of the Spirit is increasing.

So the time for "ceasing" is somewhere down the road.
The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is almost a baby if we look at this huge wave of the Holy Spirit as starting less than 40 years ago. We saw the first wave, then it's ebb but we are now seeing a new wave.
Will it be bigger? Only God knows.

We so know that the time has not come for the gifts to cease.

So... Be not afraid.

 

[CatholicFlame]

Well brother Joab, I guess we I learned one thing from you, you should never type debate material in the middle of the night! You seem like a new person today, and I am glad to read your posts that you have sent.




The gifts of the Spirit are still being understood in the church. We are all learning what works and what doesn't. Now scripture is a real blessing in this, no doubt.

Of course we may not completely agree , but I am not quite sure really! I don't even know if it is my duty to ask you these questions really. Maybe I can just trust that the Lord will handle what needs to be handled, after all who am I? His servant yes, but the corrector of His people, probably not.

Here in the renewal where we live, and I think worldwide really, we all pray in tongues together as a community, the kind of prayer that is praise of God in a language we do not even understand. LOL people must think we are mad. hehe

I am not sure what you meant when you said that I had grasped it. I am not sure what you saw that I needed to grasp. hmm. Do you mean that I saw the context of when Paul says someone should not speak out in tongues? I do definately, when there is no one to interpret as the apostle says.

I am not sure if you understand what I meant about praying / praising in tongues though. I don't think that St. paul could be referring to that , because as He has explained to us, no human understands it. This is a different gift of tongues that he is speaking of right?

One of the reasons why I say this is because of the great fruits we have seen in this type of praise. I mean seriously, the fruits have been manifold and are still growing. I am sure that many have received the gift of tongues when someone has prayed over them with none other than the gift of tongues!

LOl, if they didin't pray out loud in togues at that time because of some restriction on praying in tongues out loud, lol, nobody would ever receive the gift like it has been given so much. We would have to wait for the Dusquene weekend to happen for each and every catholic. Speaking of which, they first learned of through pentecostals. well, God is mysterious and His church is very very mysterious too.

I hope this really helps. I don't even know if you think we are wrong to pray in tongues out loud brother Joab. You seem to be saying two different things, although it is probably my fault, because I need you to interpret!


God loves ya bro

 

[JoabAnias]

I love this scripture. No where does Paul say when these gifts will cease.
We know they have not ceased because they are not only in operation but with the newest wave of the Spirit is increasing.

So the time for "ceasing" is somewhere down the road.
The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is almost a baby if we look at this huge wave of the Holy Spirit as starting less than 40 years ago. We saw the first wave, then it's ebb but we are now seeing a new wave.
Will it be bigger? Only God knows.

We so know that the time has not come for the gifts to cease.

So... Be not afraid.

I always took that scripture to mean that the gifts may end for an individual like when I forget something I have learned or die perhaps, not the Church.

But if you have Love it doesn't matter.

I have always envisioned the CCR returning something to the Church. Something that was present in the way the apostles prayed and praised with hands raised high and their love for God showed that is missing in those who become spiritually stagnant.

Peace.

 

[JoabAnias]

Well brother Joab, I guess we I learned one thing from you, you should never type debate material in the middle of the night! You seem like a new person today, and I am glad to read your posts that you have sent.

Not only that but I have been fighting and working with the flu for 3 days. Today my top lip looks like it has had botox from the fever.

The gifts of the Spirit are still being understood in the church. We are all learning what works and what doesn't. Now scripture is a real blessing in this, no doubt.

I think they gifts are perfectly understood by the Church. Just not by most of us.

Of course we may not completely agree , but I am not quite sure really! I don't even know if it is my duty to ask you these questions really. Maybe I can just trust that the Lord will handle what needs to be handled, after all who am I? His servant yes, but the corrector of His people, probably not.

Complete agreement isn't required for assembly.
I think its great to ask these questions. I learn alot this way. I think the Lord definitly guides the Church. So long as the CCR doesn't take a side alley and become a schism then were good to go. I am not corrector either. I just have French blood which gives me really over bearing opinions. That and the anonyminity of this form of communication makes it that much easier to spout off. I have been descerning much of what I speak about from experience the best I can within the guidlines of the Church though. The last thing I would ever want to do is steer anyone wrong, and I always strive to be humble though fail at that allot. The Lord takes care of that for me most of the time.

Here in the renewal where we live, and I think worldwide really, we all pray in tongues together as a community, the kind of prayer that is praise of God in a language we do not even understand. LOL people must think we are mad. hehe

I did it tonight on my drive. If my prayer language is a real language they haven't found the tribe yet. But just the same I know the feelings and whats in my head and heart for God at that moment is a gift.

I am not sure what you meant when you said that I had grasped it.

That I thought you had the correct understanding.

I am not sure what you saw that I needed to grasp.

Didn't see anything. Just approving of what you said.

I am not sure if you understand what I meant about praying / praising in tongues though. I don't think that St. paul could be referring to that , because as He has explained to us, no human understands it. This is a different gift of tongues that he is speaking of right?

I believe so. I think this is also the kind that Paul warns us not to scandalize our brothers with. You know, the stiff shirts. Its better to witness and show love than to flaunt our gifts right?

LOl, if they didin't pray out loud in togues at that time because of some restriction on praying in tongues out loud, lol, nobody would ever receive the gift like it has been given so much.

I know allot of people who have the gift but are sometimes embarassed to use it in public. (Self included) I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

I don't even know if you think we are wrong to pray in tongues out loud brother Joab.

No I don't in the proper setting but just as a pastor has a responsibility to not lead a single soul astray with his gifts so too does a responsibility apply to how this gift is used. I believe that is what St. Paul conveys in his message.

I just got off work a few hrs ago. Be back around supper time.

Peace.

P.S. I once attended a Charismatic healing Mass led by a Bishop and the Church had a traditional High Altar. You would have enjoyed that.

night night.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

I always took that scripture to mean that the gifts may end for an individual like when I forget something I have learned or die perhaps, not the Church.

But if you have Love it doesn't matter.

I have always envisioned the CCR returning something to the Church. Something that was present in the way the apostles prayed and praised with hands raised high and their love for God showed that is missing in those who become spiritually stagnant.

Peace.

We believe the Catholic Charismatic Renewal will, indeed return something to the Church.

For instance, at a Charismatic Conference in Anaheim several years ago, I saw many young men come forward who believed they were being called to the Priesthood and they were responding to that call.

I try to attend this SCRC Conference (www.scrc.org )every Labor Day weekend. This was my greater Prayer community for many years.

I was talking to a group of Carmelite Sisters, all Charismatic and all in long habits by the way. They are getting vocations, so are some of the other Charismatic communities.

I also believe that the Renewal is working and praying for Unity between our non-Catholic brothers and sisters.

 

[CatholicFlame]

Hey Peaceful,

I know those sisters, they are the Carmelite sisters of the Most Sacred Heart. they are really Carmelites and also realy charismatics. whoa, that is very cool. My freind from here in the bay area moved back home to Los Angeles recently and is discerning a vocation with them. I think she is going to join! WOW!

Here is their website for anyone who might want to know just what we are talking about.

http://www.carmel-msh.org

Ya know what, I just had an idea fro a new thread here. About embracing both the traditional and charismatic aspects of the faith. You guys inspired me! Yeah, I find it really beautiful that when we share like this in humility, as you have all been doing, the Spirit flows and we see blessings!

Prasie the Lord for His presence with us!

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Another thing that I was thinking about is your praise and worship time.
Do you attend a Prayer meeting or worship service where there is much praying and singing in tongues?
I think it is easy to get out of the habit unless there is a strong committment to maybe weekly praise and worship.
I am also praying for you.

I really want to read every post here and reply...unfortunately I'm in the middle of studying, lol, and I'm just taking a ten minute break...so I'll have to come back later for this
However I just wanted to answer your question Peaceful Dove; I actually don't go to prayer and worship where people pray in tongues...I dont' go to a charismatic church, and I actually don't know many charismatics. In fact..I've never really prayed with people in tongues..ever! lol..except once, when I was praying with this girl and she began speaking in tongues I think, but quietly. So I don't even know what that's like, really... mostly I know about the charismatic movement from these forums. My own experience has been somewhat limited. I really want to visit a charismatic prayer meeting sometime though! Maybe that'll get me speaking in tongues again
thank you for your prayers!
God bless

monica