1 Timothy 4:1-3

[Symes]

1 Timothy 4:1-3

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth."

Looking in particular at this part of the verse.

"They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods"

What is your opinion on these verses?

 

[TwinCrier]

Well, let's see, what denomination forbids it's hierarchy to marry and not eat meat during lent?

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

It is worse than that actually, the SDA church says that all of their pastors should be vegetarians! The whole SDA doctrine forbids certain foods based on the Law that we are no longer under, the very Law Christ died to set us free from. There is Biblical backing for the celibacy of priests and givin up meat for Lent is by no means the abstaining from certain foods. These verses are a direct admonition to be wary of doctrines presented that are not in line with the law of liberty. Symes, being SDA himself has neglected to post the next verses in the passage which clarifies the foods in question:

1 Tim 4:4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.


You can see by the context that it is not referring to the Catholic church at all but to another set of doctrines entirely. The SDA church does not fit all the requirements laid out by this passage but it certainly fits the bill for the food part!

 

[Symes]

flesh99

It is worse than that actually, the SDA church says that all of their pastors should be vegetarians!

An interesting statement.

Where did you get it from?

Have you got the reference for such a statment?

I would like to know where it is.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

From the SDA official website Fundamental beliefs section:

17. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested.

It is stated that the writings of EGW are an authoritative source of truth, this is in the face of all the failed prophecies and the fact she copied so much of her work that even the church has admitted it is near impossible to identify a single thought that was not copied. But let's just concentrate and the statement that her writing are a source of truth. This is from her writings:

Let not any of our ministers set an evil example in the eating of flesh-meat. Let them and their families live up to the light of health reform. Let not our ministers animalize their own nature and the nature of their children. Spalding and Magan, p. 211

So there you have it, according to the church the above quote is truth and therefore accepted buy the church. It is taught the EGW's writing are truth so therefore the above statement is taught to be true. Weasle all you want, but this is the plain fact of the matter.

 

[kdet]

What is SDA?

 

[Mr.Cheese]

Well, what use was the passage when it was written? To whom or what was Timothy referring and warning his readers about?

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Seventh Day Adventist. Symes is an SDA member. More information from their official website. While they do not ban the eating of meat they certainly encourage it for their members:

Church Manual Chapter 9
Health Ministries Department

The church accepts its responsibility to make Christ known to the world and believes this includes a moral obligation to preserve human dignity by obtaining optimal levels of physical, mental, and spiritual health. In addition to ministering to those who are ill, this responsibility extends to the prevention of disease through effective health education and leadership in promoting optimum health, free of tobacco, alcohol, other drugs, and unclean foods. Where possible, members shall be encouraged to follow a primarily vegetarian diet.

This goes against the Noachide covenant where humanity was given every moving thing for food, as well as the Mosaic covenant where the sacrificial designations were applied to animals to be used for food. This is a non-Biblical doctrine promoted by the church and it's members.

 

[kdet]

Seventh Day Adventist. Symes is an SDA member. More information from their official website. While they do not ban the eating of meat they certainly encourage it for their members:



This goes against the Noachide covenant where humanity was given every moving thing for food, as well as the Mosaic covenant where the sacrificial designations were applied to animals to be used for food. This is a non-Biblical doctrine promoted by the church and it's members.

Ok, I for one love meat and so I like that verse that says we are given every living thing for food...but if someone else decides that for them eating meat is wrong, what of it? Didn't Paul say that arguing about such things with other believers is wrong?

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

It is not they decide individually that eating meat is wrong it is that they teach it as doctrine. Paul pretty much says that if a person decides eating meat is wrong then it is wrong for them, but not for others. They push their beliefs with great vehemence and that is the problem. The Bible is clear that meat is acceptable and that we are not under the Mosaic restrictions on eating meat, and yet they push a vegetarian diet and try to get all of their members to that level of diet. This is where it goes against scripture.

 

[Knight]

Well, what use was the passage when it was written? To whom or what was Timothy referring and warning his readers about?

Minor correction here Cheese.....

Paul wrote 1 Timothy. Timothy was the recipient of the letter not the author.

 

[Symes]

Quote:

Let not any of our ministers set an evil example in the eating of flesh-meat. Let them and their families live up to the light of health reform. Let not our ministers animalize their own nature and the nature of their children. Spalding and Magan, p. 211

So there you have it, according to the church the above quote is truth and therefore accepted buy the church. It is taught the EGW's writing are truth so therefore the above statement is taught to be true. Weasle all you want, but this is the plain fact of the matter.

Your quote is from "Spalding and Magan, p. 211" I am not sure where he got that from. I will do some reseach myself on that matter.

flesh99
Don't come on this thread and try and side track into other issues that what it is supposed to be. We are looking at 1 Timothy 4:1-3 so what EGW has to do wuth that is beyond me.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

You need verses 4 an 5 for context, which you have left out. The way EGW relates is that she did what these verses describe, pretty exactly, so it is not sidetracking at all. It is in direct relation to your question.

 

[Symes]

flesh99

Keep reading through and see that we are not to have anything to do with certain things.

1 Timothy 4:4-7

"For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
6If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly"


Do you think God created tobacco? It is a legal product. Do you think God wants us to use it?

God is not talking here about those things that are unclean. God has never said that we can use or eat those things that are harmful to the body.

Getting back to the thread which is

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth."

We see that there is going to be system in this world that forbids people to marry. It at the same time orders their people not to eat certain types of food. It is not one or the other but both.

That is the question we must face.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving.

Do the scriptures lie Symes? It is quite clear that it is refering to all meats being able to be eaten. And show me where tobacco is sin please, I don't find:

Thou shalt not roll up leaves in paper and set fire to them two inches from you noses

anywhere in scripture.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

God is not talking here about those things that are unclean. God has never said that we can use or eat those things that are harmful to the body.

In Genesis Symes, Noah was given every animal for food. This is directly from God. Do you deny the truth of the scripture?

 

[Symes]

In Genesis Symes, Noah was given every animal for food. This is directly from God. Do you deny the truth of the scripture?

No, I do not deny Scripture. God does not give bad things to His people. God does not tell His people to eat unhealthy food.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

God told Noah directly that every living vreature was food, this is what the scripture says, do you deny that? In 1 Tim it clarifies and says that our food is sanctified by prayer, how is something unclean if it has been sanctified? You are denying the scripture Symes, God did give every living creature for food, and in fact did not restrict anything at all until from the time of Noah until the giving of the Law. The verses in 1 Timothy clarify this, as well as re-affirm Christ's words on the matter, the first meaning of Peter's vision, and also tell us that we are not under the food laws as they do not pertain to those that trust in Christ Jesus for their salvation. Nothing you can eat will save you and nothing you can eat will **** you either, it is by faith and faith alone. 1 Tim shows this by telling us that our food is sanctified through prayer.

 

[Symes]

Looking in particular at this part of the verse.

"They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods"

Lets not get side tracked here but concentrate on what this verse means.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

You asked about a passage Symes, you gave that passage out of context, and now that context has been provided you want to concentrate on one verse? You can't do exegetics on one verse and leave out the context of the surrounding verses, this is what led to the Great Dissapoinment in 1844 so why would you want to continue in this vein of exegetics? If you want to discuss the whole passage that is wonderful but to try and discuss one verse and ignore all of the others is just plain silly! But let's play your reindeer games:

1 Tim 4:4
koluo gameo apechomai broma

This is the Greek for the verse you are referring to. The conjunction "and" is not present in the Greek and therefore it is left up to the translator to insert "and/or" in context. There is nothing that suggests that the two together are necessary to qulaify, because in the preceding verse it refers to these in plural, if it were singular then it would imply that they were necessarily part of the same teaching, but it does not. It is also accurately translated (or) instead of and.

It pains me to have to work on just part of a verse, you didn't even quote a whole verse Symes, there is no context for what you have quoted. I tried to add as little as possible but the next post I make will have to be the full thoughts of Paul, complete with Greek and definitions as it is never proper to take one chunk out of a verse and try ot discuss it outside of context, but I have played the game you requested.