Israel-Hamas Thread II

essentialsaltes · May 16, 2024

rjs330 said:
I'm beginning to think that Israel should drive all the Gazans out and just take it over.

Some in Israel also support ethnic cleansing and a second Nakba.

When asked what Israel should do with the Gaza Strip in the event that all the territory’s residents be forcibly driven out, Azoulai responded that it should be “left empty, just like Auschwitz. A museum, so the whole world will learn what the state of Israel can do.”

wing2000 · May 16, 2024

Ana the Ist said:
The key difference is size.

Ukraine-233,000 square miles.

Gaza- 17 square miles.

Russian army size? 3 million active, another million reserve.

IDF size? 170,000 active, 450,000 reserve.

It seems you are missing the point: If there is no governance in Gaza by a party other than the IDF, Hamas will fill in the gap as recent events have shown. The current IDF CO and former retired IDF General made theses very points in the articles I linked.

The US specifically warned Israel of this risk prior to the invasion. We have recent experience after all.....in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Yes, Gaza is a much smaller area. However, Hamas is embedded in a civilian population that is ripe for recruitment. Once more, it seems the IDF still has a long way to go before they control the tunnel system. As Vietnam vets what it was like dealing with an enemey that could pop up out of the ground at any time....

ralliann · May 16, 2024

essentialsaltes said:
Some in Israel also support ethnic cleansing and a second Nakba.

When asked what Israel should do with the Gaza Strip in the event that all the territory’s residents be forcibly driven out, Azoulai responded that it should be “left empty, just like Auschwitz. A museum, so the whole world will learn what the state of Israel can do.”

That isn't ethnic cleansing, Palestinian Is not it's own ethnicity......Israelis however are...

JosephZ · May 16, 2024

ralliann said:
That isn't ethnic cleansing, Palestinian Is not it's own ethnicity

It would be ethnic cleansing. Palestinians are considered to be an Arab ethno-nationalist group.

ralliann said:
Israelis however are...

Isrealis are not. They are citizens of the modern State of Israel, regardless of them being Jewish, Arabs, or of any other ethnicity.

ralliann · May 16, 2024

rjs330 said:
I'm beginning to think that Israel should drive all the Gazans out and just take it over. The Fazans dont seem interested in yhe least in helping Israel get rid of Hamas. If they were things might be different.
instead Israel could turn it into Israel and farm it and build settlements there. Dump all the rubble into the tunnel entrances. Pour a ton of concrete on each one so there's no way to get out and you'd he good to go. Of course Hamas would link up with Hezbollah. But hey then Israel could take caref them too. If your going to be constant accused of stealing the kand anyway you might as well just take it. It would be more prosperous under Israel anyway. If these Gazanz are so peaceful as peoe say then maybe the peaceful ones can come back and live in peace afterward. But from what I've seen that's doubtful.

Whatever they do, should end any hopes of anyone attempting Warfare the way these people have done. Killing your own people should never be a form of resistance nor a defence.

ralliann · May 16, 2024

JosephZ said:
It would be ethnic cleansing. Palestinians are considered to be an Arab ethno-nationalist group.

They are Arabs......

JosephZ said:
Isrealis ar not. They are citizens of the modern State of Israel, regardless of them being Jewish, Arabs, or of any other ethnicity.

Israel the original name of the homeland of Jews. Jew's make it a "Jewish" state. Palestinians are Arabs which live in land they call Palestine.

JosephZ · May 16, 2024

ralliann said:
Israel the original name of the homeland of Jews. Jew's make it a "Jewish" state.

That doesn't make all Israelis Jews.

ralliann · May 16, 2024

JosephZ said:
That doesn't make all Israelis Jews.

I never said it did. It is Jew's who make "their state" Israel. That does not mean non jew's cannot live in in their state.
Palestinians are Arab. Palestine is the land these Arabs live.

Philip_B · May 16, 2024

ralliann said:
Whatever they do, should end any hopes of anyone attempting Warfare the way these people have done. Killing your own people should never be a form of resistance nor a defence.

I am not sure if that comment is directed against The Palestinians or the Israelis. It is only your consistent one-sided approach that gives me any clue.

It seems that the United States is the long-term friend and big brother of Israel, and even still there are many there who are concerned about what is happening.

ralliann · May 16, 2024

Philip_B said:
I am not sure if that comment is directed against The Palestinians or the Israelis. It is only your consistent one-sided approach that gives me any clue.

Well since Israel does not kill it's own people, the choice is obvious.

Philip_B said:
It seems that the United States is the long-term friend and big brother of Israel, and even still there are many there who are concerned about what is happening.

Again those who support Israel are concerned about what is happening and has been happening, and decreasing the chances of it happening again.

Philip_B · May 16, 2024

ralliann said:
Well since Israel does not kill it's own people, the choice is obvious.

How 3 Israeli hostages tried to save themselves, only to be killed by their own military

JosephZ · May 16, 2024

U.S. officials see strategic failure in Israel’s Rafah invasion

A number of current and former U.S. and Israeli officials expressed doubt that a full-scale invasion of Rafah would bring an end to the conflict or achieve the government’s goal of eliminating Hamas.

Retired Gen. David Petraeus, who utilized the “clear, hold and build” strategy to counter al-Qaeda forces in Iraq, said that Israel’s “punitive” clearing operations in Gaza, without any follow-up to hold territory or rebuild infrastructure and livelihoods for Palestinian civilians, would only result in Hamas reconstituting within an angry and alienated population.

“What you have is a cycle,” Petraeus said in an interview. “If you don’t hold and rebuild, you’re just going to have to clear again and again … all they’ve done essentially is to go into Gaza, destroy a target and then pull out.” While perhaps able to destroy Hamas as a military organization, Israel does not have the troops, doctrine, experience or political will to conduct the kind of comprehensive strategy that would prevent an insurgency from being reborn, he said.

“If Israel’s strategy is making it more likely, and not less likely that future terrorist attacks will occur, then it is not an effective strategy,” Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) told Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin at an Appropriations Committee hearing last week.

Austin concurred, saying that a “key lesson” and “strategic imperative” learned by U.S. forces in recent decades “is you have to protect the people, the civilians in the battlespace, otherwise you create more terrorists going forward.”

A broad, armored invasion into Rafah would ensure a quagmire and lead to more civilian deaths, said Alon Pinkas a veteran Israeli diplomat and former senior government adviser. “Wake up,” Pinkas said. “‘Toppling Hamas’ is only possible through diplomatic means.”

ralliann · May 16, 2024

Philip_B said:
How 3 Israeli hostages tried to save themselves, only to be killed by their own military

On accident, which again is all because of Hamas, and their supporters. Doesn't matter they were kidnapped, does it? Support Hamas at all costs.

Philip_B · May 17, 2024

ralliann said:
On accident, which again is all because of Hamas, and their supporters. Doesn't matter they were kidnapped, does it? Support Hamas at all costs.

Just in case you are misled, or mistaken, I do not support acts of terror, or the taking of hostages, by either side, and I do not support the killing indiscriminately of civilians but either side.

Ana the Ist · May 17, 2024

wing2000 said:
It seems you are missing the point: If there is no governance in Gaza by a party other than the IDF, Hamas will fill in the gap as recent events have shown. The current IDF CO and former retired IDF General made theses very points in the articles I linked.

Other than the IDF?

wing2000 said:
The US specifically warned Israel of this risk prior to the invasion. We have recent experience after all.....in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

This is arguably the most amusing part of this entire argument....

What happened in Iraq? Well, regardless of any efforts to build, the moment we left it was swept over by ISIS and a worse enemy controlled the area.

What happened in Afghanistan? Well, despite 20 years of attempting to build anything, it immediately fell as we began to leave to the exact enemies we had been fighting the entire time.

Who exactly is giving the lessons here?

wing2000 said:
Yes, Gaza is a much smaller area. However, Hamas is embedded in a civilian population that is ripe for recruitment.

Then it seems like the smart move would be to continue the devastation until the civilian population is gone.

Let's hope they exit swiftly.

Ana the Ist · May 17, 2024

Philip_B said:
Just in case you are misled, or mistaken, I do not support acts of terror, or the taking of hostages, by either side, and I do not support the killing indiscriminately of civilians but either side.

Probably the most aggravating aspect of these discussions are those on this side of Palestine not holding Hamas responsible for their actions.

It ranges from posts like yours that don't even condemn Hamas (and several posts back suggest they're freedom fighters) to people who don't see Hamas as bad at all....simply the heroic resistance of Palestine.

You don't need to say you don't "support acts of terror" or "indiscriminate killing". We all agree on these things.

Do you agree Hamas needs to be destroyed for peace to be possible?

rjs330 · May 17, 2024

JosephZ said:
U.S. officials see strategic failure in Israel’s Rafah invasion

A number of current and former U.S. and Israeli officials expressed doubt that a full-scale invasion of Rafah would bring an end to the conflict or achieve the government’s goal of eliminating Hamas.

Retired Gen. David Petraeus, who utilized the “clear, hold and build” strategy to counter al-Qaeda forces in Iraq, said that Israel’s “punitive” clearing operations in Gaza, without any follow-up to hold territory or rebuild infrastructure and livelihoods for Palestinian civilians, would only result in Hamas reconstituting within an angry and alienated population.

“What you have is a cycle,” Petraeus said in an interview. “If you don’t hold and rebuild, you’re just going to have to clear again and again … all they’ve done essentially is to go into Gaza, destroy a target and then pull out.” While perhaps able to destroy Hamas as a military organization, Israel does not have the troops, doctrine, experience or political will to conduct the kind of comprehensive strategy that would prevent an insurgency from being reborn, he said.

“If Israel’s strategy is making it more likely, and not less likely that future terrorist attacks will occur, then it is not an effective strategy,” Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) told Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin at an Appropriations Committee hearing last week.

Austin concurred, saying that a “key lesson” and “strategic imperative” learned by U.S. forces in recent decades “is you have to protect the people, the civilians in the battlespace, otherwise you create more terrorists going forward.”

A broad, armored invasion into Rafah would ensure a quagmire and lead to more civilian deaths, said Alon Pinkas a veteran Israeli diplomat and former senior government adviser. “Wake up,” Pinkas said. “‘Toppling Hamas’ is only possible through diplomatic means.”

I've always believed this kind of thought makes no sense. It's a catch 22 scenario for the victims.
1. Terrorists attack and the victim does nothing which creates more terrorists.
2. The victim tesponfs and creates more terrorists.

In truth the only thing you can do is fight back. I actually don't believe believe that fighting back creates more terrorists. If we are to believe rhat Hamas is a terrorist group who terrorized rhe Palestinian people and the Palestinians did NOT fight back and Hamas grew anyway.

What happened to the Taliban after the US attacked? They fled. They no longer controlled Afghanistan. The issue is you had other countries that sheltered them. They weren't destroyed because they had protection from others. Hamas may not end up completely wiped out because other terrorists will take them in. But at least they wouldn't be in Gaza.

Ana the Ist · May 17, 2024

Philip_B said:
It seems that the United States is the long-term friend and big brother of Israel, and even still there are many there who are concerned about what is happening.

Which is odd....because we've been supplying bombs and weapons to Saudi Arabia and their destruction of Yemen for years now. Not so much as a whisper of complaint from the left.

Every university has financial ties to China, who has quite publicly committed genocide against a minority population....not a campus protest nor call for divestment.

Yet for some reason....when we are discussing jews and a legitimate security threat....suddenly people get all upset.

JosephZ · May 17, 2024

rjs330 said:
What happened to the Taliban after the US attacked? They fled. They no longer controlled Afghanistan. The issue is you had other countries that sheltered them. They weren't destroyed because they had protection from others.

The Taliban never left Afghanistan. I pointed this out earlier in the thread.

JosephZ said:
The Taliban never left Afghanistan. Some of the leaders escaped, but not all, and most of the terrorists remained in the country. Also, the number of attacks carried out by the Taliban in Afghanistan increased the entire time we were in Afghanistan. There were more terrorist attacks carried out by the Taliban in 2020 alone than there were in the first 10 years of the war.

View attachment 339140

Most of the attacks, greater than 85%, were not targeting US forces; they were carried out against private citizens, religious institutions, schools, local police/security forces, and the Afghan government.

rjs330 said:
I've always believed this kind of thought makes no sense. It's a catch 22 scenario for the victims.
1. Terrorists attack and the victim does nothing which creates more terrorists.
2. The victim tesponfs and creates more terrorists.

Terrorism and support for terroist groups is a symptom and terrorism activities will continue until the cause of those symptoms is addressed.

rjs330 said:
In truth the only thing you can do is fight back.

Using military force against terrorist groups in general rarely if ever works, and even more rarely against well-established terrorist groups like Hamas. Military force isn't the only option when it comes to fighting terrorism and terrorist groups. On October 15th, I explained what Israel should have done to defeat Hamas:

"Israel needs to focus exclusively on hunting down all of the terrorists responsible for the attack, including the leadership of Hamas, and holding them accountable. Israel also needs to stop the influx of outside funding from countries like Iran. Bombing Gaza and punishing everyone living there for the actions of Hamas isn't going to destroy Hamas or end future terror attacks against Israel. The current approach is only going to exacerbate long-standing grievances between the Palestinians and Israel, and until those grievances are addressed, terrorist attacks against Israel will continue.

To defeat Hamas, Israel has to make supporting and joining them less attractive to Palestinians and potential recruits. This can be done by Israel recognizing and respecting a Palestinian state and improving the lives of the Palestinian people. Israel will need to play a direct role in rebuilding Gaza and improving infrastructure once the dust settles from this most recent bombardment. This, along with supporting economic development and offering livelihood opportunities, would go a long way in changing the attitude and mindset of those who live in Gaza. If Israel can show that they care more about the Palestinian people than Hamas, then Hamas will lose the support of the Palestinian people and their primary recruiting tool. This is the only way to destroy Hamas. To make this happen, it will take a concerted effort by the Israeli government, the UN, NGO's, and the Palestinians themselves."

rjs330 said:
I actually don't believe believe that fighting back creates more terrorists.

It's called counterinsurgency mathematics, and it has been proven to be true in multiple theaters of war over the past few decades and it's happening in Gaza today.

rjs330 said:
If we are to believe rhat Hamas is a terrorist group who terrorized rhe Palestinian people and the Palestinians did NOT fight back and Hamas grew anyway.

This was because the root causes of the conflict were not being addressed, and the situation in Gaza continued to deteriorate.

Ana the Ist · May 17, 2024

JosephZ said:
The Taliban never left Afghanistan. I pointed this out earlier in the thread.

Maybe not completely but the majority of Taliban retreated over international borders (namely Pakistan) where they prepared to stage their retake of Afghanistan.

JosephZ said:
Terrorism and support for terroist groups is a symptom and terrorism activities will continue until the cause of those symptoms is addressed.

It's a symptom of radical Islam, which is hard to address because...

1. People don't want to blame radical Islam for anything because it makes them a target of terrorism.
2. There's little difference between fundamentalist Islam and radical Islam.

JosephZ said:
Using military force against terrorist groups in general rarely if ever works, and even more rarely against well-established terrorist groups like Hamas. Military force isn't the only option when it comes to fighting terrorism and terrorist groups. On October 15th, I explained what Israel should have done to defeat Hamas:

Quite possibly the worst suggestion I've ever seen on this forum...

This can be done by Israel recognizing and respecting a Palestinian state and improving the lives of the Palestinian people.

Your response to the murder and kidnapping of deliberately targeted civilians is capitulation and submission....

This would only emboldened Hamas and increase their support amongst Palestinians.

JosephZ said:
"Israel needs to focus exclusively on hunting down all of the terrorists responsible for the attack, including the leadership of Hamas, and holding them accountable. Israel also needs to stop the influx of outside funding from countries like Iran. Bombing Gaza and punishing everyone living there for the actions of Hamas isn't going to destroy Hamas or end future terror attacks against Israel. The current approach is only going to exacerbate long-standing grievances between the Palestinians and Israel, and until those grievances are addressed, terrorist attacks against Israel will continue.

To defeat Hamas, Israel has to make supporting and joining them less attractive to Palestinians and potential recruits. This can be done by Israel recognizing and respecting a Palestinian state and improving the lives of the Palestinian people. Israel will need to play a direct role in rebuilding Gaza and improving infrastructure once the dust settles from this most recent bombardment. This, along with supporting economic development and offering livelihood opportunities, would go a long way in changing the attitude and mindset of those who live in Gaza. If Israel can show that they care more about the Palestinian people than Hamas, then Hamas will lose the support of the Palestinian people and their primary recruiting tool. This is the only way to destroy Hamas. To make this happen, it will take a concerted effort by the Israeli government, the UN, NGO's, and the Palestinians themselves."

It's called counterinsurgency mathematics, and it has been proven to be true in multiple theaters of war over the past few decades and it's happening in Gaza today.

ISIS went from a multinational powerhouse to a handful of disparate terrorists controlling little to nothing because we bombed them and destroyed all their supporters until it became an extremely unattractive group to join.

JosephZ said:
This was because the root causes of the conflict were not being addressed, and the situation in Gaza continued to deteriorate.

The root cause of the conflict is Hamas. It's being addressed.

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