VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

keras said:

The call for all the dead to rise and stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
Paul says it in 1 Cor 15:50=56, his prophecy about that event.

You dwell on earth and there is no scripture that says you ever leave it.

What pretentious nonsense!
Rev 4:1-2 just says how John was taken up to heaven, not bodily but in the Spirit. He did not go there to live there.

Getting desperate now, aren't you?
None of your so called proofs, say there will be a 'rapture'.

I have posted the Alternative to the rapture, which proves that all the faithful Christian peoples will live in all of the holy Land.
THAT is our destiny and our great privilege!

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I am not desperate in the least. I know the truth.

There’s inference needed to see the rapture in Rev 3:10. Only “those who dwell on the earth” are subjected to the “the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.”

Do you understand that last quotation from Rev 3:10 (ESV)? The “hour of trial” will involve the whole world. The sole purpose of the “hour of trial” is to “try those who dwell on the earth.”

“Those who dwell on the earth” is a reference to unbelievers, only.

Here’s where the inference comes in: If the earth is populated only by “those who dwell on the earth,” then we are not on the earth. You see?

With Jesus doing the talking in Rev 3:10, I know from His earlier statements (John 14:2-3), that He will come back to take us to where He is. Jesus is in Heaven, and He will come back and take us to Heaven, all within the confines of Acts 1:9-11. That means He will come back, before the Trib, and take all the dead in Christ and we who are left, into Heaven, without any unbelievers able to see a thing.

Prove this inference is not valid.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

Prove this inference is not valid.

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Anybody with a modicum of common sense and a logical viewpoint, can see your inference is not valid.

The hour of trial, involves the whole world, everyone dwells on earth, nowhere is it said that only the godless will be there when God sends His fiery wrath.
In fact; Revelation 13:7 and Daniel 7:25 prove that Gods holy people are present and they never leave the place we humans were made to live in.

keras said:

Anybody with a modicum of common sense and a logical viewpoint, can see your inference is not valid.

The hour of trial, involves the whole world, everyone dwells on earth, nowhere is it said that only the godless will be there when God sends His fiery wrath.
In fact; Revelation 13:7 and Daniel 7:25 prove that Gods holy people are present and they never leave the place we humans were made to live in.

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You don’t recognize the two groups in Rev 3:10: “You” is the word for believers. “Those” is the word for unbelievers. Only “those” are on the earth after the pre-Trib rapture. Many of “those” will be converted. They will all be martyrs for the two groups of the GM.

Rev 6:10 proves “those who dwell on the earth” are unbelievers. The ones crying out in that verse are converted unbelievers. They are the martyrs for the first group of the GM (Rev 6:11).

The saints in Rev 13:7 are converted unbelievers. They are martyred as the second group of the GM (Rev 6:11). They are resurrected in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. The GM is in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17.

You can’t disprove the facts above and below.

Acts 1:9-10 prove that Jesus ascended by Himself, and only in the view of believers (His disciples).

To fulfill Acts 1:11, Jesus will descend by Himself (1 Th 4:16), and He will descend into the view of believers, only (1 Th 4:17).

We will ascend to Jesus in 1 Th 4:17. But, we are first changed into our glorified bodies (1 Cor 15:52). We meet Jesus in air and go to Heaven (Rev 4:1).

Jeffrey Bowden said:

You don’t recognize the two groups in Rev 3:10:

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No: because there is only one group; - everybody alive at that time.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

We will ascend to Jesus in 1 Th 4:17. But, we are first changed into our glorified bodies (1 Cor 15:52). We meet Jesus in air and go to Heaven (Rev 4:1).

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A dream so incredible that to believe it is a departure from reality.
Being committed to such a belief is one thing, but to be unable to even consider any alternative, or the possibility it won't happen, is a very unfortunate mental state.
But I know people who have renounced the rapture, by fervent prayer and intensive Bible study. God does lift the veil for those who earnestly seek the truth.

keras said:

No: because there is only one group; - everybody alive at that time.

A dream so incredible that to believe it is a departure from reality.
Being committed to such a belief is one thing, but to be unable to even consider any alternative, or the possibility it won't happen, is a very unfortunate mental state.
But I know people who have renounced the rapture, by fervent prayer and intensive Bible study. God does lift the veil for those who earnestly seek the truth.

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Acts 1:9 (NIV): After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

1 Tb 4:17 (NIV): After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lordforever.

keras said:

No: because there is only one group; - everybody alive at that time.

A dream so incredible that to believe it is a departure from reality.
Being committed to such a belief is one thing, but to be unable to even consider any alternative, or the possibility it won't happen, is a very unfortunate mental state.
But I know people who have renounced the rapture, by fervent prayer and intensive Bible study. God does lift the veil for those who earnestly seek the truth.

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The words “you” and “those” are never used in Rev 3:10 to refer to just one group. Show me how they are.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

And so we will be with the Lordforever.

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Jesus will be on earth for the Millennium, not in heaven, so His faithful people will be too. Rev 5:9-10

Jeffrey Bowden said:

The words “you” and “those” are never used in Rev 3:10 to refer to just one group

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In Rev 3:10, Jesus is talking to the Church at Philadelphia. He says: Because you have kept My Command and stood firm, I will keep you from the great ordeal which is to fall upon the world to test its inhabitants.
1/ Only one group of people referred to.
2/ That group are all those who have proved their faith and trust in the Lord.
3/ Being kept from, does not mean -removed away from.
4/ The forthcoming great ordeal, will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. We are told to; Call upon the Name of the Lord and we will be saved. That is: kept safe and protected during that terrible event.

Trying to make Rev 3:10 prove a rapture, is wrong and just shows the complete lack of scriptural support for that false theory.

keras said:

Jesus will be on earth for the Millennium, not in heaven, so His faithful people will be too. Rev 5:9-10

In Rev 3:10, Jesus is talking to the Church at Philadelphia. He says: Because you have kept My Command and stood firm, I will keep you from the great ordeal which is to fall upon the world to test its inhabitants.
1/ Only one group of people referred to.
2/ That group are all those who have proved their faith and trust in the Lord.
3/ Being kept from, does not mean -removed away from.
4/ The forthcoming great ordeal, will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. We are told to; Call upon the Name of the Lord and we will be saved. That is: kept safe and protected during that terrible event.

Trying to make Rev 3:10 prove a rapture, is wrong and just shows the complete lack of scriptural support for that false theory.

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Here’s Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.”

“I will keep YOU from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, TO try THOSE who dwell upon the earth.”

Rev 6:10 proves those who dwell on the earth are UNBELIEVERS:

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

In Rev 3:10, only “THOSE” are referred to as “those who dwell on the earth.” “THOSE” are UNBELIEVERS.

In Rev 3:19, only “YOU” refers to BELIEVERS. We are “YOU” and we will not be on Earth during the Trib. You need to follow the wording and be honest about the two groups. Read it properly and fully and you will see the truth.

keras said:

Jesus will be on earth for the Millennium, not in heaven, so His faithful people will be too. Rev 5:9-10

In Rev 3:10, Jesus is talking to the Church at Philadelphia. He says: Because you have kept My Command and stood firm, I will keep you from the great ordeal which is to fall upon the world to test its inhabitants.
1/ Only one group of people referred to.
2/ That group are all those who have proved their faith and trust in the Lord.
3/ Being kept from, does not mean -removed away from.
4/ The forthcoming great ordeal, will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. We are told to; Call upon the Name of the Lord and we will be saved. That is: kept safe and protected during that terrible event.

Trying to make Rev 3:10 prove a rapture, is wrong and just shows the complete lack of scriptural support for that false theory.

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The applicable definition of “keep from” is:

cause something to stay out of something.

Source: the meaning of keep you from - Google Search

Jeffrey Bowden said:

“I will keep YOU from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, TO try THOSE who dwell upon the earth.”

Rev 6:10 proves those who dwell on the earth are UNBELIEVERS:

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1 Peter 4:12-13 proves you wrong.
Dear friends; do not be surprised by the fiery ordeal which has [will] come to test you. ........ it gives you a share in Christs sufferings.....

Many other verses say we must endure trials and testing to be proved worthy of a place in the Kingdom.
The false idea of an instant rapture before any kind of test, is plainly wrong and contradicts scripture.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

The applicable definition of “keep from” is:

cause something to stay out of something.

Source: the meaning of keep you from - Google Search

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Seems you failed to understand the message of Psalms 23. Or Psalms 91 and the Promise of 1 Corinthians 10:13

If the Lord does intend to remove His people, then why give us examples like Daniel 3:19-27?

Antonio39 said:

Seems that most people don't believe in a pre trib hope. RIght yes if you believe in a pretrib hope, or no if you believe the word doesn't teach this

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NO.

A FUTURIST UNDERSTANDING OF REVELATION AND A “TRIBULATION” MAKES JOHN INCREDIBLY PATRONISING! Put yourself in the shoes of a first century Christian in Asia Minor. Rome is getting increasingly hostile. Just a few decades ago the disciples were asking Jesus who would sit next to him on the throne - but now the Romans are still here and they’re about to persecute the church like never before. What was happening? Had God’s kingdom failed? How were they - in their situation then and there - to understand what God’s kingdom was? Jesus had said "My kingdom is not of this world" but what if the government turns on you and starts executing you and your family? Does God want you to take up the sword?

Nero is about to pour out the wrath of the Roman empire against Christians. (His name can also be read as 666 - a number which works on a few levels in the passage.) Families would be fed to the lions in front of cheering crowds.

So John writes in the apocalyptic symbolism common to the time. He uses metaphors and symbols they were familiar with - and anyone that says you are meant to read Revelation ‘literally’ should be ignored as not understanding the basics of hermeneutics and has completely misunderstood the genre.

John says in Revelation 1 that he is writing:- "to show his servants what must SOON take place", "because the time is NEAR”, "blessed are those who hear it and TAKE TO HEART what is written in it" and finally John "SHARES in THEIR TRIBULATION!" In other words, it's soon, it's nasty, they've got to obey his message, and it's already started with John himself. He's under 'house arrest' because of the gospel - the 'tribulation' has already started with him!

Then futurists come along and rip Chapter 1 out of their bibles. Instead of symbolic sermon about suffering, suddenly Revelation is a timetable. Instead of being to and about John’s generation - it’s 2000 years later and often interpreted as about America. Instead of encouraging them to remember that one day the Lord will return and judge his enemies - and remembering that the Lord himself said we would not know the day or hour - suddenly it’s a timetable.

Basically futurists turn John into a careless pastor that looks at the suffering of his own friends and churches, and sneers “You think you’ve got it bad - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!”​

Jeffrey Bowden said:

Here’s Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.”

“I will keep YOU from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, TO try THOSE who dwell upon the earth.”

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"I will keep you from the hour of trial" does not say I will take you out of the earth, that is only an assumption. God is not limited ,He can try the unbelievers while keeping the believers safe.

What I am saying here is nowhere does the passage say God will remove believers to keep them safe. We should not add words that are not there.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

Rev 6:10 proves those who dwell on the earth are UNBELIEVERS:

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Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

The above verse proves those souls in heaven are only those slain for the word of God not all Christians of all time.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

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Does not state there are no living believers on earth only those guilty of the blood of saints are to be judged.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

In Rev 3:10, only “THOSE” are referred to as “those who dwell on the earth.” “THOSE” are UNBELIEVERS.

In Rev 3:19, only “YOU” refers to BELIEVERS. We are “YOU” and we will not be on Earth during the Trib. You need to follow the wording and be honest about the two groups. Read it properly and fully and you will see the truth.

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Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Are the two passages above referring to a time during the tribulation?

These passages show the ticket to heaven is martyrdom not a pre-trib rapture..

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Daniel 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Is the above passage during the tribulation? Where is there a trip too heaven in this passage?

Rev 3:10 is not a proof text for a pre-trib rapture.

Shows us just one passage in the entire Bible that actually says (without making assumptions) believers are raptured to Heaven.

Revelation 5:8-10
8 And when He had taken the book, the four living beings and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to GOD by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our GOD kings and priests:and WE shall reign on the earth.
Revelation 11:15-18
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven(heaven?Ephesians 1:3-8), saying,The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD(world of Devil)are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.(1Corinthians 15:24-27-->24 The END cometh, when He shall have delivered up the Kingdom to GOD, even the Father; when He shall have PUT DOWN all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign,till He hath PUT all ENEMIES under His feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. Mat.5:5-JESUS said:Blessed are the meek: for they shall INHERIT the earth).

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before GOD on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped GOD,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord GOD Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were(WILL be)angry, and thy wrath is come-GOD's WRATH- , and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 13:4 and 9
4 ...who is able to make war with him? ->with the Beast <-
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

Revelation 21:8
8 But the fearful(the COWARDS), and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, self-executing, understand?

Get ready

The time is of WAR against three unclean spirits like frogs, why frogs?

Postvieww said:

Shows us just one passage in the entire Bible that actually says (without making assumptions) believers are raptured to Heaven.

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Of course; rapture believers can't do that, because there isn't one.

But I am careful to leave the door open to the rapture to heaven possibility, as we do not know the Mind of God. He has allowed millions of His followers to believe it, I consider; for the testing of their faith. Also; for whether they have taken the time and trouble to really study their Bibles.

Oseas said:

The time is of WAR against three unclean spirits like frogs, why frogs?

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Because they are going to croak!
Explanation for Oseas - Croak is a slang term for dead.

keras said:

1 Peter 4:12-13 proves you wrong.
Dear friends; do not be surprised by the fiery ordeal which has [will] come to test you. ........ it gives you a share in Christs sufferings.....

Many other verses say we must endure trials and testing to be proved worthy of a place in the Kingdom.
The false idea of an instant rapture before any kind of test, is plainly wrong and contradicts scripture.

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keras said:

1 Peter 4:12-13 proves you wrong.
Dear friends; do not be surprised by the fiery ordeal which has [will] come to test you. ........ it gives you a share in Christs sufferings.....

Many other verses say we must endure trials and testing to be proved worthy of a place in the Kingdom.
The false idea of an instant rapture before any kind of test, is plainly wrong and contradicts scripture.

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1 Peter 4 is about the trials and tribulations of the Christian life. It has nothing to do with the Trib. Please read the whole chapter.

keras said:

Seems you failed to understand the message of Psalms 23. Or Psalms 91 and the Promise of 1 Corinthians 10:13

If the Lord does intend to remove His people, then why give us examples like Daniel 3:19-27?

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You keep on bringing up verses that have nothing to do with the Trib or which do not disprove the rapture. I quote Jesus in John 14:3 and Rev 3:10. Both are about the rapture verses 1 Th 4:16-17.

Acts 1:9-11 only align with 1 Th 4:16-17, along with 1 Cor 15:52. The pre-Trib rapture is prophesied as happening in the next return of Jesus Christ. There is no way those verses align with the 2A or any prophecy after it.

You are also overstating the significance of Rev 6’s last verses. All hell breaks loose on this planet in the early seals. Rev 6’ late verses do not compare. Yes, it has spectacular phenomena. But, who is killed in those verses?

Oseas said:

The time is of WAR against three unclean spirits like frogs, why frogs?

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keras said:

Because they are going to croak!
Explanation for Oseas - Croak is a slang term for dead.

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Psalms 115:17
17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.
And JESUS said (around 2000 years ago): let the dead(they which have not the Spirit of GOD, Spirit of life) bury their dead. Matthew 8:17

Daniel 12:1-2 combined with 1Thessalonians 4:16
Michael comes first, and after of him comes Lord JESUS.
12:1 - at that time (at this current time, or at this Day, the Lord's Day, the seventh and last Day/millennium) shall Michael (the archangel) stand up, ...
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake(RESURRECTION), some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Thes.4:15- For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord (the Word is GOD, self-executing), that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent(precede) them which are asleep.

1 Thes. 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel-Michael- , and with the Trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
And 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 reveal:

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery;We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,(Compare with Philippians 3:20-21)

52 ...at the last trump:for the trumpet shall sound,and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,and we shall be changed.
(the trumpet shall sound:Re.11:15-And the seventh angel sounded;and there were great voices in heaven(heaven???Ephesians 1:3-8), saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Matthew 5:5-JESUS said: Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth).
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (caught???)

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. - Hallelujaaaah!!!

Get ready -->Matthew 25:10

Jeffrey Bowden said:

1 Peter 4 is about the trials and tribulations of the Christian life. It has nothing to do with the Trib. Please read the whole chapter.

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Correct;1 Peter 4:12 does have nothing to do with the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.
Peter is referring to the next Prophesied event: the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster of a similar magnitude as Noah's Flood.
What will happen when; The end of all things comes upon us, 1 Peter 4:7 and The time has come for the Judgment to begin. 1 Peter 4:17
When; The Lord will come with fire and many will be slain by Him.... Isaiah 66:15-17 and Divine retribution will be seen at work, falling from heaven......... Romans 2:18, and many other Prophesies about the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath

! Peter 4:12 is specific and accurate warning of a fiery test the Lord will use to winnow out the chaff.... Matthew 3:12
YOU and I will experience it, there will be no rapture to avoid it.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

You keep on bringing up verses that have nothing to do with the Trib or which do not disprove the rapture. I quote Jesus in John 14:3 and Rev 3:10. Both are about the rapture verses 1 Th 4:16-17.

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It's like trying to disprove that pigs can fly. After all, it was only the cow who jumped over the moon and the little pig ran away with the spoon.
You have run away with the out of this world rapture to heaven theory. Just another fairy tale.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

You are also overstating the significance of Rev 6’s last verses. All hell breaks loose on this planet in the early seals. Rev 6’ late verses do not compare. Yes, it has spectacular phenomena. But, who is killed in those verses?

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Making such statements shows your sad lack of Bible knowledge, Isaiah 66:15 says many will die, Ezekiel 21:3-5 says; the righteous and the wicked alike will die. Jeremiah 25:33 Those whom the Lord has slain on that Day, will lie scattered from one end of the earth to the other.......

Seals 1 to 5 are already in operation. Jesus opened them at His Ascension. Proved by the Christian martyrs since Stephen.

keras said:

Correct;1 Peter 4:12 does have nothing to do with the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.
Peter is referring to the next Prophesied event: the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster of a similar magnitude as Noah's Flood.
What will happen when; The end of all things comes upon us, 1 Peter 4:7 and The time has come for the Judgment to begin. 1 Peter 4:17
When; The Lord will come with fire and many will be slain by Him.... Isaiah 66:15-17 and Divine retribution will be seen at work, falling from heaven......... Romans 2:18, and many other Prophesies about the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath

! Peter 4:12 is specific and accurate warning of a fiery test the Lord will use to winnow out the chaff.... Matthew 3:12
YOU and I will experience it, there will be no rapture to avoid it.

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Read the last verse: 1 Peter 4:19 (NIV); So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

It’s ALL about the daily trials and tribulations of the Christian life.