ALCOHOL

If Jesus made something other than wine for wedding, then the Bible should not call it wine.

durangodawood said:

If Jesus made something other than wine for wedding, then the Bible should not call it wine.

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It was wine. Tee totalers play with the language to discourage consumption. Which the bible never forbids. We're admonished against drunkenness and reference Paul's statement on convictions.

All things are lawful [that is, morally legitimate, permissible], but not all things are beneficial or advantageous. All things are lawful, but not all things are constructive [to character] and edifying [to spiritual life].

If a believer feels consumption is wrong they are free to abstain. But they aren't granted equal liberty to impress there conviction on another. In like fashion, if a brother is aware of their position they ought to abstain in their presence out of love (not to cause them to stumble). It's a courtesy not a declaration of agreement.

~bella

bèlla said:

It was wine. Tee totalers play with the language to discourage consumption. Which the bible never forbids. We're admonished against drunkenness and reference Paul's statement on convictions.

All things are lawful [that is, morally legitimate, permissible], but not all things are beneficial or advantageous. All things are lawful, but not all things are constructive [to character] and edifying [to spiritual life].

If a believer feels consumption is wrong they are free to abstain. But they aren't granted equal liberty to impress there conviction on another. In like fashion, if a brother is aware of their position they ought to abstain in their presence out of love (not to cause them to stumble). It's a courtesy not a declaration of agreement.

~bella

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Proverbs 23:31-33 King James Version

Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, When it giveth his colour in the cup, When it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, And stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, And thine heart shall utter perverse things.

Adam56 said:

Proverbs 23:31-33 King James Version

Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, When it giveth his colour in the cup, When it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, And stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, And thine heart shall utter perverse things.

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Quoting a passage doesn't alter the truth. If you feel abstinence is best then do so. But don't bend the scriptures to support your stance.

~bella

durangodawood said:

The Bible says that Jesus made wine for people.

Thats a pretty strong endorsement of moderate drinking right there.

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They have already been drunk, though (J 2:10). So it depends on what you mean by moderate drinking.

bèlla said:

Quoting a passage doesn't alter the truth. If you feel abstinence is best then do so. But don't bend the scriptures to support your stance.

~bella

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I’m not bending scripture. The Bible talks about non alcoholic wine and alcoholic wine throughout. Saying that all wine in the Bible is alcoholic is bending scripture.

Deleted. I did not realize this is The Kitchen Sink. We can’t discuss theology here.

Adam56 said:

I’m not bending scripture. The Bible talks about non alcoholic wine and alcoholic wine throughout. Saying that all wine in the Bible is alcoholic is bending scripture.

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He turned it into wine. There is no suggestion in the text it was non alcoholic and they go on to say he saved the best for last. I can only assume from your response you've never done the same. If you'd made wine, spirits or vinegars you'd understand the verse from a practical standpoint. If you were conversant in earlier periods you'd be aware of the practice of watering down beverages.

~bella

trophy33 said:

They have already been drunk, though (J 2:10). So it depends on what you mean by moderate drinking.

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John 2:10 reads more as a reflection on human behavior, and not necessarily an approval.

But actually making wine for people, that clearly an endorsement of at least moderate drinking.

durangodawood said:

John 2:10 reads more as a reflection on human behavior, and not necessarily an approval.

But actually making wine for people, that clearly an endorsement of at least moderate drinking.

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Creation of wine in a situation when the guests were already drunk, at least some.

Even in the church, the first suppers of the Lord were not ceremonial sips, but it was mixed with dinners and so much wine that some members of the church got drunk even in the church, at least in Corinth (1 Cor 11:21).

To be clear, I certainly do not defend drinking, alcohol is harmful in any amount and I do not drink at all, basically. Maybe one glass a year.

bèlla said:

He turned it into wine. There is no suggestion in the text it was non alcoholic

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There is no suggestion that it was alcoholic.

bèlla said:

and they go on to say he saved the best for last. I can only assume from your response you've never done the same. If you'd made wine, spirits or vinegars you'd understand the verse from a practical standpoint. If you were conversant in earlier periods you'd be aware of the practice of watering down beverages.

~bella

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Furthermore, if the people there are already drunk, then Jesus bringing more alcohol would be enabling people to get even more drunk, clearly a sin.

It was his first miracle?

Saving the host from embarrisment.

Is what I get out of it, at least at first glance.

trophy33 said:

Creation of wine in a situation when the guests were already drunk, at least some.

Even in the church, the first suppers of the Lord were not ceremonial sips, but it was mixed with dinners and so much wine that some members of the church got drunk even in the church, at least in Corinth (1 Cor 11:21).

To be clear, I certainly do not defend drinking, alcohol is harmful in any amount and I do not drink at all, basically. Maybe one glass a year.

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A. alcohol is harmful
B. Jesus made it for people.

I dont know how a Christian reconciles those 2 facts except perhaps by conceding that in careful moderation the harm just isnt that big a deal in the big picture. And that the human conviviality you get from careful moderate use is a good thing on average.

durangodawood said:

I dont know how a Christian reconciles those 2 facts except perhaps by conceding that in careful moderation the harm just isnt that big a deal in the big picture. And that the human conviviality you get from careful moderate use is a good thing on average.

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It could be a better thing than the infectious water in the era before sanitation. Alcohol probably killed you slower than the water.

Its not a good thing today.

trophy33 said:

It could be a better thing than the infectious water in the era before sanitation. Alcohol probably killed you slower than the water.

Its not a good thing today.

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Hmm. Everyone was drinking wine all day long every day just like we do with water? Even diluted, it sounds unlikely most people had it available.

More likely: people at a wedding wanted to drink wine because its a wedding party. In this regard people then were probably just like people today.

And if it was a "necessary sin" that Jesus was enabling, youd think the Bible would instruct us so.

durangodawood said:

Hmm. Everyone was drinking wine all day long every day just like we do with water? Even diluted, it sounds unlikely most people had it available.

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Nothing ever applies to everyone. But most people were drinking weak wine (wine mixed with water) if they could. And normal wine for dinners, if they could afford it. Poor ones could not.

durangodawood said:

More likely: people at a wedding wanted to drink wine because its a wedding party. In this regard people then were probably just like people today.

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Yes, partying is another thing. Alcohol serves as a drug in such occasions, not as a sanitation thing. It was their culture and their choice.

Sigh. This keeps on going, doesn't it?

The bible says what it says. It states Jesus turned water into wine, Whether or not it contained alcohol, I can't say; I wasn't there. We can go around and around about it, but at the end we're looking for our own supposition in scripture.

What I do know is that bourbon is said to have been invented by a Baptist minister. That the colony of Georgia was set up as alcohol-free. Having seen wild grapes ferment and a deer intoxicated from them, that was a "good luck with that" situation. One of the arguments in favor of lifting the ban was the notion that the water had to be "corrected" by adding a little alcoholic beverage or dropping in red hot iron.

As for advertising, no ad is going to show their product in a bad light. That's why commercials have happy, active, people smiling while the narrator reads a list of nasty side effects for prescription drugs. Booze ads don't show sots on skid row just as snack ads don't show the morbidly obese. Add to this that all entertainment has the goal of selling something, we shouldn't be surprised that media is nothing more than a high tech medicine show.

Tuur said:

Booze ads don't show sots on skid row just as snack ads don't show the morbidly obese.

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That would be so great that I would (maybe) start watching commercials. "True ads" would be more amusing than the nonsense they create.