There is no Rapture

Jan001 · Apr 10, 2024

Timtofly said:
This is not even historically accurate. You need to reread your history. Have you ever heard of the year of the 4 emperors? That was 69AD. The Romans had a civil war that year. Titus came back in 70AD. No one was interested in Jerusalem that year. They were trying to figure out who the next emperor would be.

I suggest you read Books V, VI, and VII of the following work by the Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus. He was there in Jerusalem between 67 and 70 AD.

THE WARS OF THE JEWS OR HISTORY OF THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM

The Wars of the Jews by Flavius Josephus

The destruction lasted 3 and 1/2 years from beginning to end.

keras · Apr 10, 2024

Jan001 said:
The destruction lasted 3 and 1/2 years from beginning to end.

Therefore; the Roman conquest was about 40 years after Jesus was cut off.
Any ideas of the 70th 'week' being the 3 1/2 years of Jesus' ministry and then the destruction of Jerusalem, are wrong.
That 7 year period fits with many Prophesies in the final 7 years before Jesus Returns.

keras · Apr 10, 2024

Douggg said:
Could you also please provide verse 4 of the 1989 REB translation ?

Zechariah 14:4 On that day His feet will stand on the Mt of Olives, which lies to the East of Jerusalem and the mount will be cleft in two by an immense valley, running East to West. Half of the Mount will move Northwards and half will move Southwards. Revised English Bible, 1989 Oxford Press.

Could you please say how many Jews will be left in the holy Land after the Ezekiel 21:1-7 disaster?

Re; Zech 14:4-5, I now see that the valley that will be blocked will be the existing Kidron valley. that runs North/ South, between Jerusalem city and the Mt of Olives.
I see the reason for this valley running East from Jerusalem, is for the holy river, as described by Ezekiel 47:1-12 & Revelation 22:1-2
It will flow into the Dead Sea, its waters will be made fresh and fish will live in it. Ezekiel 47:7-10

Timtofly · Apr 10, 2024

Jan001 said:
I suggest you read Books V, VI, and VII of the following work by the Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus. He was there in Jerusalem between 67 and 70 AD.

THE WARS OF THE JEWS OR HISTORY OF THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM

The Wars of the Jews by Flavius Josephus

The destruction lasted 3 and 1/2 years from beginning to end.

Jerusalem was the last walled city left, but the 3.5 years were not Romans surrounding Jerusalem. They had to fight for many cities in Palestine. They did not fight in 69. As the Romans were fighting each other to see who was going to be emperor.

The destruction was longer than that and not all because of the Romans. The Jews were fighting themselves. That is why it is called the Jewish Wars, not the Roman conquest of Palestine.

Why not just quote from the work to prove your point?

Jan001 · Apr 10, 2024

keras said:
Therefore; the Roman conquest was about 40 years after Jesus was cut off.
Any ideas of the 70th 'week' being the 3 1/2 years of Jesus' ministry and then the destruction of Jerusalem, are wrong.
That 7 year period fits with many Prophesies in the final 7 years before Jesus Returns.

Where do you get 7 years?

Jan001 · Apr 10, 2024

Timtofly said:
Jerusalem was the last walled city left, but the 3.5 years were not Romans surrounding Jerusalem. They had to fight for many cities in Palestine. They did not fight in 69. As the Romans were fighting each other to see who was going to be emperor.

The destruction was longer than that and not all because of the Romans. The Jews were fighting themselves. That is why it is called the Jewish Wars, not the Roman conquest of Palestine.

Why not just quote from the work to prove your point?

Too much to post.

Jan001 · Apr 10, 2024

keras said:
Therefore; the Roman conquest was about 40 years after Jesus was cut off.
Any ideas of the 70th 'week' being the 3 1/2 years of Jesus' ministry and then the destruction of Jerusalem, are wrong.

The end of the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple was about 40 years after Jesus' death. Jesus prophesied that the temple would be destroyed within "this generation." Jesus prophesied that the heaven and earth, aka temple, of the Jews would pass away in "this "generation." This was fulfilled within 40 years (within one generation), which is what Jesus prophesied.

Matthew 24:1-2, 34-35 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down.” 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away [the temple], but my words will not pass away.

I don't think it matters exactly how many years Jesus' ministry lasted from its beginning to its end. Jesus taught in the temple when he was twelve years old. His birth, ministry, and death did occur during the 70th week. He was killed (his life was cut off) in the middle of Daniel's prophesied 70th week. The destruction of Jerusalem occurred at the end of Daniel's 70th week.

keras · Apr 10, 2024

Jan001 said:
His birth, ministry, and death did occur during the 70th week. He was killed (his life was cut off) in the middle of Daniel's prophesied 70th week. The destruction of Jerusalem occurred at the end of Daniel's 70th week.

So you concede there is a time gap in Daniels 70 weeks. [490 years total]
I contend and am supported by Prophecy, that gap is between when Jesus was killed and Resurrected, at the end of the 69th week and the making of a 7 year treaty, as per Daniel 9:27, which will be the 70th week and it culminates with the glorious Return of Jesus.

Jan001 · Apr 10, 2024

keras said:
So you concede there is a time gap in Daniels 70 weeks. [490 years total]
I contend and am supported by Prophecy, that gap is between when Jesus was killed and Resurrected, at the end of the 69th week and the making of a 7 year treaty, as per Daniel 9:27, which will be the 70th week and it culminates with the glorious Return of Jesus.

There is no gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. This is not logical!

After further research, I don't think Daniel 9:27 is about Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ ushered in the kingdom of God with his death on the cross.

Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Luke 17:20-21 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come? he answered them, and said: The kingdom of God cometh not with observation [you cannot see it]: 21 Neither shall they say: Behold here, or behold there. For lo, the kingdom of God is within you [a spiritual kingdom].

Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.” [transfiguration of Jesus on the mountain]

Luke 22:18 for I tell you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

When did Jesus drink the fruit of the vine in the kingdom of God? He drank the wine shortly before he died.

John 19:29-30 A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth. 30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

His death ushered in the kingdom of God. Jesus finished the first covenant with his death on the cross. Jesus put into place his New Covenant with his death on the cross.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit;

Hebrews 12:28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe;

Jesus' kingdom is a spiritual kingdom.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

Concerning Daniel 9:27:
I think Daniel 9:27 is about Antiochus IV Epiphanes (c. 215 BC – November/December 164 BC).

Douggg · Apr 11, 2024

Jan001 said:
Douay-Rheims Bible
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are shortened upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, that transgression may be finished, and sin may have an end, and iniquity may be abolished; and everlasting justice may be brought; and vision and prophecy may be fulfilled; and the saint of saints may be anointed.

Daniel's vision is about Jesus Christ.

Jan001, you left out Daniel 9:21-23 in your assessment. What vision is being referred to in those verses ?

Verse 21 identifies what specific vision that Gabriel was sent to Daniel to give understanding about. In Daniel 8, the little horn person comes to an when he attempts to stand up against the Prince of princes Jesus, Daniel 8:25. Which will be at Jesus's return. So the 2300 days leads up to that point, and requires the entire 70th week to fit into.

Jan001 · Apr 11, 2024

Douggg said:
Jan001, you left out Daniel 9:21-23 in your assessment. What vision is being referred to in those verses ?

Verse 21 identifies what specific vision that Gabriel was sent to Daniel to give understanding about. In Daniel 8, the little horn person comes to an when he attempts to stand up against the Prince of princes Jesus, Daniel 8:25. Which will be at Jesus's return. So the 2300 days leads up to that point, and requires the entire 70th week to fit into.

I continue to learn new things, and now, after further research, I think the explanations in the Footnotes below the following scripture passage are correct:

Daniel 9:23-27 When you began your petition, an answer was given which I have come to announce, because you are beloved. Therefore, mark the answer and understand the vision.

24 “Seventy weeks[e] are decreed
for your people and for your holy city:
Then transgression will stop and sin will end,
guilt will be expiated,
Everlasting justice will be introduced,
vision and prophecy ratified,
and a holy of holies will be anointed.
25 Know and understand:
From the utterance of the word
that Jerusalem was to be rebuilt[f]
Until there is an anointed ruler,
there shall be seven weeks.
In the course of sixty-two weeks
it shall be rebuilt,
With squares and trenches,
in time of affliction.
26 After the sixty-two weeks
an anointed one[g] shall be cut down
with no one to help him.
And the people of a leader who will come
shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
His end shall come in a flood;
until the end of the war, which is decreed,
there will be desolation.
27 For one week[h] he shall make
a firm covenant with the many;
Half the week
he shall abolish sacrifice and offering;
In their place shall be the desolating abomination
until the ruin that is decreed
is poured out upon the desolator.”

Footnotes

9:1 Darius: see note on 6:1.
9:2 Seventy years: Jeremiah was understood to prophesy a Babylonian captivity of seventy years, a round number signifying the complete passing away of the existing generation (Jer 25:11; 29:10). On this view Jeremiah’s prophecy was seen to be fulfilled in the capture of Babylon by Cyrus and the subsequent return of the Jews to Palestine. However, the author of Daniel, living during the persecution of Antiochus, extends Jeremiah’s number to seventy weeks of years (Dn 9:24), i.e., seven times seventy years, to encompass the period of Seleucid persecution.
9:13 As it is written: the first time that this formula of Scriptural citation is used in the Bible. The reference (v. 11) is to the sanctions of Lv 26:14–16; Dt 28:15–17.
9:21 At the time of the evening offering: between three and four in the afternoon.
9:24 Seventy weeks: i.e., of years. Just as Jeremiah’s seventy years was an approximation (see note on v. 2), the four hundred and ninety years here is not to be taken literally. Similarly, the distribution of the “weeks” in the following verses indicates only relative proportions of the total figure. A holy of holies: or “most holy”; could be understood as a place (e.g., the Jerusalem Temple) or a person (cf. 1 Chr 23:13).
9:25 From the utterance…to be rebuilt: from the time of Jeremiah’s prophecy. Anointed ruler: either Cyrus, who was called the anointed of the Lord to end the exile (Is 45:1), or the high priest Jeshua who presided over the rebuilding of the altar of sacrifice after the exile (Ezr 3:2). Seven weeks: forty-nine years, an approximation of the time of the exile. In the course of sixty-two weeks…rebuilt: a period of four hundred thirty-four years, roughly approximating the interval between the rebuilding of Jerusalem after the exile and the beginning of the Seleucid persecution.
9:26 An anointed one: the high priest Onias III, murdered in 171 B.C., from which the author dates the beginning of the persecution. Onias was in exile when he was killed. A leader: Antiochus IV.
9:27 One week: the final phase of the period in view, the time of Antiochus’ persecution. He: Antiochus himself. The many: the faithless Jews who allied themselves with the Seleucids; cf. 1 Mc 1:11–13. Half the week: three and a half years; the Temple was desecrated by Antiochus from 167 to 164 B.C. The desolating abomination: see note on 8:13; probably a pagan altar. Jesus refers to this passage in his prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem in Mt 24:15.

hal4x · Apr 11, 2024

John 5 jesus said there's coming an hour when all who are in graves will here his voice and some willrise to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt. Daniel 12 says same thing. John 6 jesus said 4 times (so he's driving home a point) he will raise up believers on the LAST DAY!!!. SO when we read in 1 thessalonians 4 that the DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE (resurrection) that would be the LAST DAY because Jesus said so. Do you see what not mentioned? A 7 year tribulation or a thousand year millennium. To make a pre mid or post tribulation rapture a reality you must do scriptural gymnastics to make it happen

Douggg · Apr 11, 2024

Jan001 said:
I continue to learn new things, and now, after further research, I think the explanations in the Footnotes below the following scripture passage are correct:

The footnotes are wrong. The footnotes refer to Antiochus IV as being the little horn of Daniel 8:13.

Daniel 8:11-14 is a vision (in the text) about a the little horn stopping the daily sacrifice and committing the transgression of desolation at the time of the end.

The footnotes are wrong because....

1. in Daniel 11:31, Antiochus was said not to have committed the transgression of desolation, but has the abomination of desolation placed in the temple sanctuary building.

2. in Daniel 8:17, Gabriel said that the vision is at the time of the end. Antiochus was not time of the end.

Jan 001, in order to understand the end times series of events, you need to realize that there is a difference between the transgression of desolation in Daniel 8:12-13 and the abomination of desolation of Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11-12.

The transgression of desolation will be an act, an action.

The abomination of desolation will be a thing, an object, an idol.

In the end times, after the 7 year 70the week begins, in the middle of it, the transgression of desolation act, action, will lead to there being a thing, an object, an idol made and placed on the temple mount, which that statue image of the beast king will be the abomination of desolation.

"desolation" within the context of the transgression of desolation and the abomination of desolation - means that the temple will be made void of any worship and praise of the One True God in the temple during that time.

_________________________________________________________________________________

The person referred to in Daniel 9:27 who confirms the covenant for 7 years, goes through 5 stages on the path to his demise of being cast into the lake of fire.

1. as the little horn
2. as the prince who shall come
3. as the Antichrist
4. as the revealed man of sin
5. as the beast king

Jan001 · Apr 11, 2024

Douggg said:
The footnotes are wrong. The footnotes refer to Antiochus IV as being the little horn of Daniel 8:13.

Daniel 8:11-14 is a vision (in the text) about a the little horn stopping the daily sacrifice and committing the transgression of desolation at the time of the end.

The footnotes are wrong because....

1. in Daniel 11:31, Antiochus was said not to have committed the transgression of desolation, but has the abomination of desolation placed in the temple sanctuary building.

2. in Daniel 8:17, Gabriel said that the vision is at the time of the end. Antiochus was not time of the end.

Jan 001, in order to understand the end times series of events, you need to realize that there is a difference between the transgression of desolation in Daniel 8:12-13 and the abomination of desolation of Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11-12.

The transgression of desolation will be an act, an action.

The abomination of desolation will be a thing, an object, an idol.

In the end times, after the 7 year 70the week begins, in the middle of it, the transgression of desolation act, action, will lead to there being a thing, an object, an idol made and placed on the temple mount, which that statue image of the beast king will be the abomination of desolation.

"desolation" within the context of the transgression of desolation and the abomination of desolation - means that the temple will be made void of any worship and praise of the One True God in the temple during that time.

_________________________________________________________________________________

The person referred to in Daniel 9:27 who confirms the covenant for 7 years, goes through 5 stages on the path to his demise of being cast into the lake of fire.

1. as the little horn
2. as the prince who shall come
3. as the Antichrist
4. as the revealed man of sin
5. as the beast king

So many opinions! Time will tell.

keras · Apr 11, 2024

Jan001 said:
I think the explanations in the Footnotes below the following scripture passage are correct:

Explain then; why did Jesus say: ....when we see that of which the Prophet Daniel spoke......if it was fulfilled in 167 BC by Antiochus 4th ?

Daniel 12:10, also said that the Prophetic Words are sealed until the time of the end. Therefore whoever wrote those footnotes, presumably some years ago; could not have had the truth of Prophecy.

hal4x · Apr 11, 2024

Douggg said:
The footnotes are wrong. The footnotes refer to Antiochus IV as being the little horn of Daniel 8:13.

Daniel 8:11-14 is a vision (in the text) about a the little horn stopping the daily sacrifice and committing the transgression of desolation at the time of the end.

The footnotes are wrong because....

1. in Daniel 11:31, Antiochus was said not to have committed the transgression of desolation, but has the abomination of desolation placed in the temple sanctuary building.

2. in Daniel 8:17, Gabriel said that the vision is at the time of the end. Antiochus was not time of the end.

Jan 001, in order to understand the end times series of events, you need to realize that there is a difference between the transgression of desolation in Daniel 8:12-13 and the abomination of desolation of Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11-12.

The transgression of desolation will be an act, an action.

The abomination of desolation will be a thing, an object, an idol.

In the end times, after the 7 year 70the week begins, in the middle of it, the transgression of desolation act, action, will lead to there being a thing, an object, an idol made and placed on the temple mount, which that statue image of the beast king will be the abomination of desolation.

"desolation" within the context of the transgression of desolation and the abomination of desolation - means that the temple will be made void of any worship and praise of the One True God in the temple during that time.

_________________________________________________________________________________

The person referred to in Daniel 9:27 who confirms the covenant for 7 years, goes through 5 stages on the path to his demise of being cast into the lake of fire.

1. as the little horn
2. as the prince who shall come
3. as the Antichrist
4. as the revealed man of sin
5. as the beast king

It's referring to messiah not antichrist

Douggg · Apr 11, 2024

hal4x said:
It's referring to messiah not antichrist

Welcome to the forum, hal4x.

Are you referring to the prince who shall come ?

hal4x · Apr 11, 2024

Daniel 9 27 is talking about messiah making a covenant not antichrist/prince

Douggg said:
Welcome to the forum, hal4x.

Are you referring to the prince who shall come ?

Douggg · Apr 11, 2024

hal4x said:
Daniel 9 27 is talking about messiah making a covenant not antichrist/prince

Thanks for clarifying what you were referring to.

The person confirms an existing covenant, not makes (creates) a new covenant in Daniel 9:27.

That existing covenant is the Mt. Sinai covenant that the Jews hold to. In Deuteronomy 31:9-13, Moses made a law to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant on a 7 year cycle.

The Antichrist, acting out his role as the thought to be King of Israel messiah by the Jews, will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant by making a big speech that God gave the land of Israel to the children of Israel as theirs forever.

Kokavkrystallos · Apr 11, 2024

"The Early Fathers A cursory examination of the early church fathers reveals that they were predominantly premillennialists or chiliasts.19 Clear examples in the writings of Barnabas(ca. 100-150), Papias (ca. 60-130), Justin Martyr (110-165), Irenaeus(120- 202), Tertullian (145-220), Hippolytus (c. 185-236), Cyprian (200-250), and Lactantius (260-330)make this understanding impossible to challenge successfully.
(19) Millard Erickson (The Concise Dictionary of Christian Theology, rev. ed . [Whea ton, Ill: Cro ssway, 2001] 3 1) defines chiliasm as “Belief in an earthly millennium; in particular, in the early centuries of the church a premillennialism that held a very vivid and imaginative view of conditions during the millennium.” George E. Ladd (Crucial Questions About the Kingdom of God [Grand Rapids: Eerdman s, 1952] 23) "

Clement of Rome (ca. 90-100) Clement wrote, “[O]f a truth, soon and suddenly shall His will be accomplished, as the Scripture also bears witness, saying, ‘Speedly will He come, and will not tarry’; and ‘The Lord shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Holy One, for whom ye look.’” “Let us therefore earnestly strive to be found in the number of those that wait for Him, in order that we may share in His promised gifts.”24 Clement quotes Hab 2:3 and Mal 3:1 in a clear statement of imminence. Ignatius of Antioch (d. ca. 98-117). Ignatius wrote, “The last times are come upon us. Let us therefore be of a reverent spirit, and fear the long-suffering of God, lest we despise the riches of His goodness and forbearance.” On the basis of Romans 2:4, he continues, “For let us either fear the wrath to come, or let us love the present joy in the life that now is; and let our present and true joy be only this, to be found in Christ Jesus, that we may truly live.”25 Ignatius wrote to Polycarp, “Be watchful, possessing a sleepless spirit,” and “Be ever more becoming more zealous than what thou art. Weigh carefully the times.

Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373) Ephraem was an extremely important and prolific writer. Also known as Pseudo-Ephraem, he was a major theologian of the early Eastern (Byzantine) Church. His important sermon, “On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World,” (ca. 373) is preserved in four Latin manuscripts and is ascribed to St. Ephraem or to St. Isidore. 42 If not written by Ephraem, it is written by one greatly influenced by him.43 This Pseudo-Ephraem sermon declares the following: “All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.”44
-THE RAPTURE IN TWENTY CENTURIES OF BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION

https://tms.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/tmsj13e.pdf

There is no Rapture

Striving to win the prize...

THE WARS OF THE JEWS OR HISTORY OF THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM​

The Wars of the Jews by Flavius Josephus ​

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

THE WARS OF THE JEWS OR HISTORY OF THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM​

The Wars of the Jews by Flavius Josephus ​

Striving to win the prize...

Striving to win the prize...

Striving to win the prize...

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Striving to win the prize...

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Striving to win the prize...

Footnotes​

Active Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Striving to win the prize...

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Active Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Active Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

THE WARS OF THE JEWS OR HISTORY OF THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM

The Wars of the Jews by Flavius Josephus

THE WARS OF THE JEWS OR HISTORY OF THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM

The Wars of the Jews by Flavius Josephus

Footnotes