There is no Rapture

keras said:

Only the angel army of heaven will accompany Jesus at His Return. Revelation 19:14, Matthew 16:27
After His glorious Return, He will send those angels out to gather those faithful people who have proved their faith during all the Prophesied end time events. Matthew 24:31, 1 Thess 4:17

No 'interpretation' required, just read and understand the plain scriptures.

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I do agree, it is an army of the angels in heaven coming with Jesus Christ when he returns. The angels being sent gather the elect from everywhere on earth, the contexts shows this, after the tribulations, but not with showing where they are taken. 1 Thessalonians 4 does not help, it is not shown where those caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds to ever be with him are after that. There is nothing I see showing who of them are in heaven then or not, or who is going to Jerusalem to stay there. Revelation does have scenes of God's redeemed in heaven, still.

FredVB said:

I do agree, it is an army of the angels in heaven coming with Jesus Christ when he returns. The angels being sent gather the elect from everywhere on earth, the contexts shows this, after the tribulations, but not with showing where they are taken. 1 Thessalonians 4 does not help, it is not shown where those caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds to ever be with him are after that. There is nothing I see showing who of them are in heaven then or not, or who is going to Jerusalem to stay there. Revelation does have scenes of God's redeemed in heaven, still.

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We know that Jesus Returns to Jerusalem, Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11 and we know that all His faithful people will be on earth; some as His Priests and co-rulers. Revelation 5:9-10 All will live for much longer, in peace and prosperity, eventually spread around the world.
Psalms 47 & 48, Micah 4:1-7, Isaiah 65:18-25, describe the Millennium. Isaiah 65:17 is an assurance of the final; Eternal state. Typical of Isaiah's prophesies, they are out of their correct order. Isaiah 28:13

They are not living people seen in heaven. They are the souls of the martyrs, kept under the Altar. Revelation 6:9-11 They are allowed to cry out at times; Revelation 19:1-3

I perceive that none will be taken immediately when great troubles come, even when there is collapse and there is no longer benefit of civilization to any of us. We are really not supposed to be here with it, it was not stated from God that we should have cities to live in, and be governed in. The model for how we should be living was already given, in the beginning, and it wasn't rescinded. When people of God are taken up to be with the Lord, it will be just when the scenes of God's judgment are coming on the unrepentant who are all the ones left. The repentant, who truly are repentant, would have left the cities already, before there is the collapse that will come, living then without the destructiveness in this world that there is from all those in the cities, and living simply with sustainability in their ways which is good stewardship, with which we are in the image of God, that we lack otherwise.

It would be torturous I think to be kept under anything, an altar or otherwise, just to cry out at times. This arrangement coming from God does not sound right. The new earth with the new heavens is what all those of creation groan for, and there are prophetic visions showing what they hope for will be provided, and just those redeemed of humanity, the repentant who will be in Christ, will be there with the restored creation.

2 Thessalonians 2:1–4 (KJV)
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

• "by the coming of our LORD Jesus Christ" (who comes in the clouds (Mark 13:26-27, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
• "for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

This presents a problem for the a-rapture position, for the Apostle Paul wrote this passage to calm the Thessalonians who feared the day of the LORD had already taken place and that they were left behind.

• "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand"
• "Let no man deceive you by any means"
• "for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

This is not the return of Christ to the Earth, but rather in the clouds.

1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ← including when he later returns to the Earth (Jude 14).

So this also presents a problem for the traditional pre-trib camp as well in that these events will not occur before the revealing of the antichrist 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

All three traditional eschatology camps are right and wrong at the same time. For when you correctly divide the 70th Week of Daniel, it reveals the one rapture occurs:

• PRE- Great tribulation
• MID- 70th Week of Daniel †
• POST- Believer's tribulation

For the 70th Week of Daniel is not one 7-year tribulation (singular) but two 3.5-year tribulations (plural). Divided in scripture as:

• 1260 days (Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6)
• 42 months (Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5)
• "time, times, and half a time" (Revelation 12:14, Daniel 12:7) ††

† this is not traditional Mid-trib eschatology which teaches there is only one 7-year tribulation
†† time = 1 year, times = 2 years, half a time = 6 months... totaling three and a half years

There are the various schools of thought on the time of believers being caught up to be with the Lord often called the rapture. Their positions are the wrong focus, because they take away attention from why believers would be caught up, and what they should be doing until then. What they should not be doing is counting on how soon it would be until they are caught up. There are things we should really be set on doing here and some things are urgent. We are not supposed to stay with any of what is destructive in this earth and we should live in ways with the responsible stewardship to this earth that was required of us. The image of God for us is necessarily with that. The collapse will still happen and judgment on the unrepentant in this world still comes after that.

Who are the people who will be caught up? Well, believers, that would commonly be the answer. But who are they? That sometimes gets disagreement? What about easy grace believers? What I understand of them is that repentance is not considered important in any way to salvation. I don't know that from a survey but I have heard that belief being expressed. That faith is not such that can last. Repentance is important and the judgment from God is coming on the unrepentant in the world, they are the ones left. The repentant will be caught up to be with the Lord, these are real believers who changed in possible ways to be obedient to what they learn is God's will. By then, I'm sure, the real repentant will have left the cities to live in the way meant for us, before the collapse of what's known as Mystery Babylon and represented in Isaiah 24.

If you do not live in a city, great. There will be a lot of people surprised that they will have to get out of their city, urgently, when there will be no more time to put it off, though God's people do not belong there. It is not about moving to another city, there would not be a city right for moving to. There must be the way God gave for how to live, it would be a group of people living independently with working what they have there, growing things. It cannot work with you still depending on things from cities.

The Days are near, when every vision will be fulfilled.

Ezekiel 1,2 & 3– Ezekiel’s call and commission, circa 590BC After the captivity of Israel.

Ezekiel 2:3 & 11 Ezekiel, sent to his fellow countrymen in exile– 10 tribes of the House of Israel

Ezekiel 4 Israel punished for 390 years.: x7= 2730, Leviticus 26:18 Judah punished for 40 years: x7x7= 1960, Isaiah 40:2, Leviticus 26:23&27
Then Ezekiel gives a demonstration of Jerusalem conquered and exiled. This will happen three times, by the Babylonians, then the Romans, and again yet to occur. Ezekiel 21:14

Ezekiel 5:1-3 The demonstration of how 1/3 of the Jewish people will be burnt up, 1/3 killed in battle, 1/3 scattered and pursued. Paralleled by Zechariah 13:8-9 and how only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27

V.4-12 A remnant will be kept safe. The Lord says: As you have disobeyed Me, I shall turn against you and judge you, as I have never done before and will never again. Because you defiled My holy place, I shall destroy you without pity. V 13-17 When My fury is spent, you will be the object of mockery and abuse, an appalling lesson to the other nations. Ezekiel 23:32-34 [The Jews, scattered among the nations]

Ezekiel 6:1-14 The Land of Israel made desolate. [from 135 AD to 1948]

Ezekiel 7:1-27 The people judged for their sins. The Lords face is turned from them.

Ezekiel 8:1-18 Their idolatry exposed. The Lord will not listen to their cries.

Ezekiel 9:1-11 Death and destruction. The iniquity of Israel and Judah is very great. They say: The Lord has forsaken the Land and no longer sees what we do.

Ezekiel 10:18 The cherubim and the glory of the Lord leaves the Temple.

Ezekiel 11:1-13 The leaders of Judah told of the soon to happen Babylonian captivity. Pelutiah fell dead and Ezekiel cried to the Lord; Are You going to make an end to all the Israelites?

Ezekiel 11:14-15 The Word of the Lord: Your brothers and blood relatives, who are the whole House of Israel, [the 10 Northern tribes in exile] those of whom the Jews have said – they are far away from us and this Land is now in our possession.

Ezekiel 11:16-17 Therefore the Lord says: When I sent them far away and scattered them among the nations, it was I that protected them. I will gather them from their dispersion and give the Land of Israel to them.

Ezekiel 11:18-20 When they return, they will renounce all their evil ways. I will give them new hearts and a new spirit, so they will follow My laws. They will be My people and I will be their God. But those who rebel, will be judged and punished.

Ezekiel 12:1-2 You are living amongst a rebellious people. [the Jews] They have eyes and see nothing, ears but hear nothing, because they are rebellious.

Ezekiel 12:3-20 The Babylonian captivity and the Jewish dispersion.

Ezekiel 12:21-28 A proverb- “Days pass and visions perish”. The Lord will put an end to this proverb, instead it will be said: The Days are near when every vision will be fulfilled. There will be no more false prophecies among the Israelites, for what I, the Lord, says, will be done. For it will be in your days, in your lifetime, you rebellious people, that I shall carry out all that I decree. Ref. REB. Verses abridged.

Ezekiel 12:25 is most interesting, as it means that in the days that Judah is in possession of the Land, within a lifetime, that is 70- 80 years from 1948 Therefore it will be before 2028 - that the Lord will carry out what He has decreed. As Jesus said in Matthew 24:32-34

In Ezekiel 11:14-20, he is specifically talking about the Northern 10 tribes, the House of Israel that were taken into captivity by the Assyrians, who are now mainly Christians, by descent of by grafting in; from every nation and language. THEY will be given the Land of Israel and THEY will receive a new heart and spirit.

Ezekiel 16:59-63 says how Judah will be judged and pardoned. A remnant will rejoin with Israel.

Jeremiah 12:14-17, Zephaniah 1:14-18, + explain that the Land will be cleared of all evil peoples. Those of Judah who acknowledge their Messiah, will join their Christian brethren and resettle in New Israel, to be called Beulah. Isaiah 62:4

Dale said:

The problem is that if pastors keep predicting a rapture of believers and it never happens, the likely result will be a falling away from God's church.

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True. False prophets will always be on earth until Jesus's second coming.

Some Chinese Christians were taught by some foreign missionaries that they would be raptured before any tribulation, and so many of them fell away when the communists overtook their country.

keras said:

There is really no argument about a 'rapture to heaven'.
Jesus said:
John 3:13 No one has gone up into heaven, except the One who came down from heaven, the Son of Man.
John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
We humans never go to heaven. At the end of Gods 7000 year Plan for mankind, God and heaven come to the earth, Revelation 21:1-7

Jesus IS coming again; to the earth and He will gather His own people to Him, to rule and be His priests for the Millennium. Matthew 24:30-31

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John 3:13 is pre-crucifixion. Many things change after Jesus' crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension into heaven. 1 Peter 3:21-22, Hebrews 1:3, Ephesians 1:18-23,

John 8:21-23 is about the Pharisees who will go to perdition.

I think that after Jesus died on the cross, Jesus led all of the spirits of the righteous dead who were in the bosom of Abraham to heaven. It is these spirits, as well as the spirits of the righteous dead who died after Jesus rose from the dead, who are now ruling and reigning with Him there. Revelation 20:4-5, 2 Timothy 2:10-13

These same spirits or saints will return with Jesus at His second coming. Jude 14-16

The Christians who are still living on earth will rise to meet together with them in the air when Jesus returns at His second coming. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

Jesus went to heaven after His resurrection, and it is there that He has prepared a place for us in His Father's house. John 14:1-3

I think the so-called millennium is actually the time period between Jesus' first coming and His second coming. It is not a literal "one thousand years." "A thousand years" is symbolic for a long period of time.

When Jesus returns for His second and final coming, He will hand over His kingdom to His Father. 1 Corinthians 15:20-27

Unless God's house is moved to earth after the resurrection and judgment of all peoples, we will live in heaven with God. John 14:2

Jan001 said:

I think that after Jesus died on the cross, Jesus led all of the spirits of the righteous dead who were in the bosom of Abraham to heaven. It is these spirits, as well as the spirits of the righteous dead who died after Jesus rose from the dead, who are now ruling and reigning with Him there. Revelation 20:4-5, 2 Timothy 2:10-13

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That cannot be since Peter said post cross, in Acts 2, present tense

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Guojing said:

That cannot be since Peter said post cross, in Acts 2, present tense

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

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In Acts 2:34–35, Peter was quoting what David had said in Psalm 110:1, about a thousand years before the birth of Jesus.

Since Jesus had not yet been born at the time of Psalm 110, David's spirit, or soul, could not have ascended into heaven. However, David's spirit, or soul, did ascend from Hades into heaven after Jesus died on the cross. Jesus opened the gates of heaven after His death, and He accompanied the souls, or spirits, of the righteous into heaven. Luke 16:22-23 It was Jesus' sacrifice which made this possible. Adam's sin caused the loss of the possibility of eternal life with God, but Jesus' death restored the possibility of eternal life with God. Genesis 3:24, Romans 5:10-15

Perhaps David's soul, or spirit, is one of the 24 elders in heaven. Revelation 5:8 David's body will not ascend into heaven until after the resurrection of the dead. David's soul is not one of the martyrs' souls who are in heaven. Revelation 6:9

34-35 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”’
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

Psalm 110​

Of David. A psalm.​

1 The Lord says to my lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”

Jan001 said:

Unless God's house is moved to earth after the resurrection and judgment of all peoples, we will live in heaven with God. John 14:2

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This is what will happen; on the new Earth. Revelation 21-22
AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

Jan001 said:

Since Jesus had not yet been born at the time of Psalm 110, David's spirit, or soul, could not have ascended into heaven. However, David's spirit, or soul, did ascend from Hades into heaven after Jesus died on the cross. Jesus opened the gates of heaven after His death,

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Speculative wishful thinking.
Proof that David is not now in heaven and that no human will live in heaven before Eternity comes: Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served God in his time, fell asleep, died and his body returned to dust. Job 14:12
Nowhere does the Bible say heaven is populated by anyone other than God and His spiritual angelic beings.

Jan001 said:

Since Jesus had not yet been born at the time of Psalm 110, David's spirit, or soul, could not have ascended into heaven. However, David's spirit, or soul, did ascend from Hades into heaven after Jesus died on the cross. Jesus opened the gates of heaven after His death, and He accompanied the souls, or spirits, of the righteous into heaven.

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There is no scripture that said "David's spirit, or soul, did ascend from Hades into heaven after Jesus died on the cross"

There is scripture, after the cross, in Acts 2, that David is still in Abraham's bosom.

Remember the Holy Spirit was speaking thru Peter in Acts 2, if he wanted Israel to know that David has ascended to heaven, Peter would not be using the present tense is.

keras said:

This is what will happen; on the new Earth. Revelation 21-22
AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

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Revelation 21:1-2 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

The "a new heaven and a new earth" is a metaphor for the new covenant Church and its worship practices. The "first heaven and the first earth" is a metaphoric reference to the first covenant with its priests, temple, and animal sacrificial system.

The reason there was no longer any sea is because the "sea" is a reference to the huge wash basin that the Levite priests bathed in before they served in the temple.

Jeremiah 52:20 The bronze from the two pillars, the Sea and the twelve bronze bulls under it, and the movable stands, which King Solomon had made for the temple of the Lord, was more than could be weighed.

2 Kings 25:13 The Babylonians broke up the bronze pillars, the movable stands and the bronze Sea that were at the temple of the Lord and they carried the bronze to Babylon.

For more info and to see a drawing of this "Sea":

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RHSkHl5ne6A/WVZrixT2wtI/AAAAAAAA-HQ/c96eLRP8v5QPHuU1apJEflOD9pspgzBJwCLcBGAs/s1600/Brazen_Sea_of_soloman_From_Jewish_Encyclopedia.jpg

We are living in the so-called millennium presently. It is the time period between Jesus' first coming and His second coming. Jesus' kingdom is not an earthly kingdom.

John 8:23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my subjects would be fighting to prevent me from being handed over to the Jews; but as it is my kingdom is not from here.”

keras said:

Proof that David is not now in heaven and that no human will live in heaven before Eternity comes: Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served God in his time, fell asleep, died and his body returned to dust. Job 14:12
Nowhere does the Bible say heaven is populated by anyone other than God and His spiritual angelic beings.

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Yes, David's body returned to dust, but after Jesus died on the cross, his spirit returned to God in heaven.

Luke 20:38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Hebrews 11 tells of the souls, or spirits, of the righteous patriarchs who have gone home to God before us. These comprise the cloud of witnesses who surround us spiritually now.

Hebrews 121-3 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles.

If these patriarchs were still in Hades, we could not be surrounded by them now.

Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the testimony they had given;

Revelation 4:4 Around the throne are twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones are twenty-four elders, dressed in white robes, with golden crowns on their heads.

The saints are reigning in heaven right now with Jesus and they will reign with Him there until it is time for His second coming. They will accompany Him to earth at the sound of the last trumpet.

Jan001 said:

The saints are reigning in heaven right now with Jesus and they will reign with Him there until it is time for His second coming. They will accompany Him to earth at the sound of the last trumpet.

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This idea is simply impossible. No one but God reigns in heaven.
Matthew 16:27 and Revelation 19:14 are crystal clear: only the angel armies of heaven will accompany Jesus at His Return.

Guojing said:

There is scripture, after the cross, in Acts 2, that David is still in Abraham's bosom.

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Acts 2:34 says that David was Prophesying about Jesus.
David, all the Patriarchs and every person who has ever lived; ALL wait in death for the final Judgment. Revelation 20:5 & 11-15

Guojing said:

There is no scripture that said "David's spirit, or soul, did ascend from Hades into heaven after Jesus died on the cross"

There is scripture, after the cross, in Acts 2, that David is still in Abraham's bosom.

Remember the Holy Spirit was speaking thru Peter in Acts 2, if he wanted Israel to know that David has ascended to heaven, Peter would not be using the present tense is.

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Peter is quoting what the prophet Amos stated. David's quote in Amos is in the present tense. Paul kept to that tense when he repeated it.

People's souls, or spirits, do ascend into heaven after they die. Their bodies do not. Their bodies will not reunite with their souls until the last trumpet sounds.

Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the testimony they had given;

Revelation 4:4 Around the throne are twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones are twenty-four elders, dressed in white robes, with golden crowns on their heads.

Revelation 5:8 When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

2 Timothy 2:11-13

The spirits, or souls, of the righteous are reigning with Jesus in heaven right now. They will reign with Him there until they accompany Jesus back to earth at the sound of the last trumpet. When Jesus returns to earth, He will gather the remainder of His people. He will judge all peoples and then He will hand over His kingdom to His Father.

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

We have a different understanding of the Scriptures. I think it best if we do not continue our discussion.

keras said:

This idea is simply impossible. No one but God reigns in heaven.
Matthew 16:27 and Revelation 19:14 are crystal clear: only the angel armies of heaven will accompany Jesus at His Return.

Acts 2:34 says that David was Prophesying about Jesus.
David, all the Patriarchs and every person who has ever lived; ALL wait in death for the final Judgment. Revelation 20:5 & 11-15

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Luke 1:37 For with God nothing will be impossible.”

Apparently, you do not believe in near death experiences when people see their relatives waiting for them on the other side.

Matthew 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”

Abraham's, Isaac's, and Jacob's spirits are not dead. They are with God right now.

We do have a very different understanding of the Scriptures so I think it best if we do not continue our discussion.

Jan001 said:

We have a different understanding of the Scriptures. I think it best if we do not continue our discussion.

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Your objective in participating in Christian discussion is to only discuss with people who interpret scripture your way?

Jan001 said:

Apparently, you do not believe in near death experiences when people see their relatives waiting for them on the other side.

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I certainly don't!
Those experiences are purely a Satanic deception. Please explain how anyone can be deemed to qualify to go to heaven, before any Judgment?
Moses didn't. David didn't and the martyrs do not live there, as just their spiritual souls are kept under the Altar.

Jan001 said:

We do have a very different understanding of the Scriptures so I think it best if we do not continue our discussion.

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Ok, as trying to discuss any issue with someone who simply ignores plain scriptures like Revelation 20:5, is a wasted effort.