Did Men Really Walk On The Moon?

  • Yes

    Votes: 87 84.5%
  • No. But all other space missions are real.

    Votes: 2 1.9%
  • No. And other space missions are fake too.

    Votes: 14 13.6%

  • Total voters
    103

The Liturgist

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My father actually bought me the C64, because for some reason he thought a ninth grade dropout would be able to program it for him.

He used to enter these monthly contests in which you started with a grid, and then every month they'd send you a different set of values for the letters in the alphabet. Then whoever could fill in the grid like a crossword puzzle, and get the highest score for the letters used, would win. So he thought that a computer should be the perfect tool for the task. And I was the one for the job. I quickly learned that Basic wasn't gonna be fast enough.

I eventually got the program written and it would do exactly what it was supposed to do, but there were two problems. One was that even given a whole month to run it couldn't calculate every possible variation. So no guarantee that you'd end up with the highest possible score. And two, I couldn't find a dictionary database, so somebody was going to have to type in every word in the dictionary. Long story short, I ended up with a C64 and he never did win that contest. But I learned something, so it was all good.

Indeed, computers for me have always been an end of themselves due to how much I enjoy using them. And I am guilty of contriving use cases to justify them (although in my case this has always worked, except in one embarrassing situation in which a VAR intentionally misled me about the capabilities of a midrange Juniper SRX in terms of its routing speed under load, when what they should have done was to sell me a Juniper MX-40, where Juniper was even offering them larger incentives, since our actual firewall requirements could have been handled by the much more primitive capabilities of the MX, or else, they should have sold us the larger, more high end top of the line SRX system, which could have handled our traffic as well as providing the more sophisticated firewall I desired, so they managed to permanently alienate us as a client and miss out on larger sales commissions as a result of that incident). Alas one cannot account for intentional dishonesty.
 
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Jipsah

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That may be true horizontally, as it is not know how far beyond Antarctica space goes.
Better hope your pizza-shaped earth isn't accelerating sideways. that would be doubleplus ungood.
But that would not work vertically, as up above there is water being held back by a raqia. So there is a definite limit to the space (vertically) above our heads.
Hey, as long as you're making up your own rules, make 'em up to suit yourself.
 
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Jipsah

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My first introduction to writing software was on a C64 using BASIC. Quickly switched to Machine language which was cumbersome, but gave a far greater insight into what the programing was actually doing.
Machine language as in binary, or an assembler-type language?
 
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The Liturgist

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Hey, I started out writing code on a coding form, submitting it to keypunch where it was punched into cards, then handing it to a clerk who would give it to the operators who would run the compile then return me a listing and my cards to correct compile errors.

Indeed, actually you know it was the early UNIX community on the one hand, and the early Internet community at sites like MIT and Stanford, home to the idiosyncratic ITS and WAITS multiuser timesharing operating systems, and also ironically within IBM the timesharing enabled both on OS/360 and MVS and their successors like z/OS, and also especially on the alternative VM and CMS operating systems (where CMS was a single-user OS that would be run atop an IBM mainframe along with many other instances of the OS using the VM operating system, which was the first large scale commercial hypervisor, implemented in the 1970s, and which was also capable of running other OSes such as MVS and the older OS/360 MVT, VSE (DOS/360) and the TPF real time operating system used by airlines, credit cards, banks and so on for real-time transaction management at scale, which was itself historically only programmable and configurable using SDKs running on CMS. I expect this has changed, and my understanding is also that other parts of the software suite such as terminals historically were operated by another operating system which might be on another mainframe which would feed the data to a redundant SysPlex of TPF mainframes which would handle the real time processing of airline reservations, account balances, et cetera. These systems remain in use due to their reliability, and good SLAs, and other things, even though there are more modern, more distributed alternatives. Of course some airlines use some creaking ancient nightmares of legacy software, such as the system Southwest used to align crew scheduling with its fleet, which broke spectacularly in recent years.

At any rate, these communities helped develop the real time environment which would kill off the closed shop computing environment, which in turn facilitated an enormous improvement in programmer productivity, since programmers working under the ancient bureaucratic nightmare of the closed shop could not immediately see the fruit of their labor, and lacking interactivity, it made it much more difficult to understand or respond to complex bugs or bugs that were the result of systemic behavior.
 
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The Liturgist

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I never worked with Unix because you had to pay for it, but most of the stuff I made my living on ended up running on Linux. We could pare it down to just what we wanted it to do, which freed up bandwidth for our applications, which translated to lower hardware costs,.

Fortunately at present every good UNIX except for HP-UX and AIX are available free of charge (even the VMS operating system, which has been retrofitted with CDE, the proprietary inspiration for KDE, and a few other Unixisms to make it easier to work with can be freely obtained through a hobbyist program). Unixware and OpenServer, formerly known as Xenix, are also still proprietary, but one of them has a free trial available, and also, yuck, I don’t want to deal with those. Well, Unixware might be interesting, but both systems are really very dated.

Sadly the two other good proprietary Unices probably can be freely obtained but one needs to find a vintage machine to run them (IRIX, which wants sgi MIPS machines, which are still quite expensive, and Tru64 OS, runs on the excellent Alpha CPU, which is much less expensive).

But aside from those, the best Unices, Solaris and BSD, were made open source, and as a result one can download one of the flavors of BSD or Illumos, which is a continuation of the OpenSolaris project that Oracle stopped participating in, with several distros such as OpenIndiana. In this manner one can avoid Linux altogether. For example, NetBSD will run on nearly everything Linux will run on, and the other two BSDs, OpenBSD and FreeBSD, offer superb security for server applications, and superb filesystem and desktop performance respectively. Of course, I don’t object to using Linux distros, particularly those which are not infested with the thinly disguised malware known as systemd (as you can tell, I greatly dislike systemd).
 
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The Liturgist

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Machine language as in binary, or an assembler-type language?

I believe on the c64 it was fairly common for owners to write machine language programs using bytecode rather than a full assembler.
 
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The Liturgist

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COBOL was/is the most intuitive language ever, by design.

Well, I would disagree with “ever.” Indeed even of the first three languages, I think LISP is more intuitive, particularly if one understands Lambda Calculus (which is amazingly simple).

The objective of COBOL to make computer programming possible for non-programmer end users was really only ever partially realized; it makes programming easier, but COBOL is known to be objectively harder to work with and require more learning time than Ruby, Python and various BASIC dialects. Ruby in particular I would suggest for new programmers since the syntactic whitespace of Python invites subtle bugs of the sort beginners are more likely to make due to a lack of familiarity with good working practices concerning text editors. I really also want every programmer doing their primary editing with either vim or emacs, both of which can be configured in a way so as to be accessible for end users. Vim, for example, is packaged with a set of configurations called “cream” which makes it as user-friendly on a GUI system like Windows or Linux as any other professional text editor, but the underlying advanced functionality remains, which users can migrate to. Emacs sadly does not have as elegant a packaging that I have found, however, many people have sought to convince me that basic Emacs is more user friendly than vim, and I can kind of understand where they are coming from; what emacs has that I would really love on vim is its implementation around a LISP interpretor, which is elegant, and it makes the OS basically a programming environment not unlike a Linux desktop environment or some of the more advanced IDEs like Visual Studio, which one can augment by adding third party software, but since almost everything is implemented in Emacs LISP, almost everything can also be radically customized).

I’m probably one of only a few people who has writen LISP, albeit in a different dialect, in vim, since unfortunately when I first learned UNIX, my mentor taught me vi, and as a result its very hard for me to pick up emacs style interfaces. There are of course modules for emacs which make it behave like vi, but it is also a bit heaver and slower than even vim, and so its just proven a bit difficult for me to get off of vim. Also I suppose another major problem is despite the massive customizability of Emacs, i have not been able to get its GUI to look as elegant as the alternative provided by vim and cream on the command line and in a windowed environment respectively. The other aspect is that I am accustomed to using ed and sed on the command line for as an emergency editor and for automated stream editing operations respectively, and the vim user interface is derived from ed (specifically, vi was a WYSIWYG derivative of ex, using a roguelike interface, and ex in turn was an extension of ed written by Bill Joy, one of the great UNIX gurus from Sun Microsystems).

Oh speaking of UNIX and Linux, it is amusing to consider that MacOS was, at least for a time, and possibly still is, certified UNIX, a status IBM z/OS also attained to, which in the latter case was especially amusing considering how at the level of system internals z/OS is so vastly different; historically it even used a different character set, EBDIC rather than ASCII and UTF-8, which in bygone times created all sorts of spectacularly unpleasant compatibility programs. Meanwhile, Linux, whose kernel developers and GNU developers and also, whose Busybox developers, have historically sought to keep the system as UNIX-like as possible, and as compatible with traditional UNIX as possible, with, in particular, a great deal of development work occurring across the BSDs and Linux in a concerted manner, since these were the main open source operating systems, later augmented by Solaris, or Illumos as it is now known since Oracle acquired Sun and stopped contributing to the open source editions of OpenSolaris, has never been certified UNIX, in part due to the cost and bother of obtaining and maintaining such certification and the adverse impact this would have on system development. Indeed, the BSDs and Illumos aren’t even certified UNIX, despite the historic importance of Solaris and especially of the original Berkeley Software Distribution to the development of UNIX - BSD was the first UNIX system to support Internet Protocol in the 1980s.
 
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prodromos

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We had multi-platter removeable HDs in common use as early as 1973. Don't know how far back the monster in the picture went. We also had dinosaurs like magnetic drums and data cells. The drum was fast for the times, but didn't hold enough. The data cell was fun to watch, but not real good for much else. There were still TOS (tape operating system) machines in use then as well.

Yeah, I'm old.
I cut my teeth porting Fortran programs from an old 60 bit word CDC Cyber mainframe to its new 64 bit word successor. Lots of fun was had figuring out the various tricks programmers had used to manipulate text that was 10 x 6 bit characters per word into the 8 x 8 bit successor. I think it also went from some form of EBCDIC to ASCII, just to make it more, shall we say, fun.
Our computer room also had its own UPS, which consisted of a large motor driving a generator via a large flywheel. Cutting edge stuff. Worked well to give the operators enough time to shut things down gracefully in the even of a blackout, at least until a hapless electrician somehow managed to accidently bridge the generator output with his screwdriver.
 
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I cut my teeth porting Fortran programs from an old 60 bit word CDC Cyber mainframe to its new 64 bit word successor. Lots of fun was had figuring out the various tricks programmers had used to manipulate text that was 10 x 6 bit characters per word into the 8 x 8 bit successor. I think it also went from some form of EBCDIC to ASCII, just to make it more, shall we say, fun.
Our computer room also had its own UPS, which consisted of a large motor driving a generator via a large flywheel. Cutting edge stuff. Worked well to give the operators enough time to shut things down gracefully in the even of a blackout, at least until a hapless electrician somehow managed to accidently bridge the generator output with his screwdriver.

Both machines were Control Data? I love their hardware: they were the fastest of the BUNCH (the mainframe manufacturers also including Burroughs, Univac (who would later merge with Burroughs to form Unisys) and Honeywell in terms of performance and were I think in terms of raw clock speed faster than System/360

Unfortunately I know very little about any BUNCH mainframe environments other than Unisys systems, specifically those with the Burroughs MCP operating system, which was ahead of its time.

I would be very interested to know any system-level insights you could provide on the CDC machines including what their OS and interfaces were like compared to other mainframes, and if you had console access and access to the “Dinosaur Pen” or were just working via punch cards and the array of secretaries and other bureaucracy that provided a kind of human task scheduling on closed shop mainframes.

By the way, a few places still use motor-generators. For example, much high end computer gear, even including blade server chassis, really wants three phased power, and it is a positive requirement for running IBM system Z mainframes, along with a raised floor for cable management purposes (mainframes and supercomputers are the last bits of hardware that require a raised floor; nearly everything else is compatible with the overhead cooling that is preferred in telecom-standard datacenters, and one gets better efficiency with overhead cold air ducts and hot air exhaust ducts in a datacenter with full cold/hot aisle separation, including the use of blanks in the equipement cabinets to prevent cold air from being wastefully blasted into the hot aisle).

One datacenter in LA whose design I was involved in was designed to exploit the cool temperatures in downtown LA, which for most of the year do not exceed 65 degrees fahrenheit, by sucking in cool outside air on one side of the relatively small retrofitted 15-story datacenter building next door to one Wilshire, and dumping the exhaust out the other side. Water-Cooled Room Air Conditioner or CRAC units made by Liebert were attached to the cold air intake plenum and were configured to activate automatically if required, but normally the facility operated only on the basis intake fans to create a positive pressure of filtered cold air in the plenum and negative pressure from the suction fans on the hot aisle, which would evacuate the rising hot air from the servers, and which combined with the fans in the server to generate suction which introduced cold air from the outside into the datacenter. To improve air quality, the intake air went either through either CRAC units or HEPA filters on the intake fans, which would be sealed off automatically via electric motors in a high temperature scenario outside, along with the exhaust ports. So basically depending on how hot it got outside, the automatic control system for the facility could initially just augment the cold air by energizing one or more CRAC units, but in doing so, this increased electrical power consumption considerably, so we would wait until interior temperature in the datacenter exceeded 74 degrees F. Once the Liebert CRAC units were turned on, the next step, on a really hot day, would be to close the shutters on both the intake and and hot air venting ports, which would result in the warm air from the hot aisles being recirculated through the plenum back into the Liebert CRAC units. This was advantageous when the outside air temperature exceeded the temperature of the air extracted off of the hot aisles, which could occur in July, August and September (not so much in June due to the unique Southern California phenomena of “June Gloom”), and occasionally in May, but even in July there would be many days on which the doors could be left open.

The placement of the building relative to other skyscrapers and our elevation above street level also helped increase the supply of cool air. And unlike most datacenters in legacy buildings in Los Angeles at least, we put our windows to good use, rather than simply covering them up on the inside with drywall (except for windows that could be used for emergency evacuation via the vintage 1920s fire escape) which is what the other datacenters in the building did, aside from the Meet Me Room and certain other telecom spaces which did not run a large number of servers, but rather only a small amount of routing and switching equipment which tends to not produce as much heat as servers.

Telecom equipment by the way really wants DC power, and tends to use old fashioned lead acid batteries as a UPS, which requires that meet me rooms be equipped with hydrogen detectors for reasons any sailor on a WWII or other diesel military submarine would be familiar with. However for a datacenter space that mainly accommodates server computers, the preference of everyone involved is to use UPS machines (uninterruptible power supply) with lithium ion batteries. These UPS units are put in between the servers and an automatic transfer switch, which in the event of a loss of mains power (utility power, in the case of LA, from the city owned LADWP, which at the time offered very good rates to datacenters, making it extremely cost effective to run a datacenter in the City of Los Angeles rather than in the burbs where power would be supplied by Southern California Edison or San Diego Gas and Electric in the far southern suburbs.*

*Of course no mention of the unpleasant reality of California utility companies would be complete without mentioning PG&E, which 30 years ago was well run and well respected, but since that time, whose incompetence has become legendary, with exploding pipelines, arcing powerlines and failing spillways on dams. Their lethal incompetence managed to destroy the town of Paradise, where I spent much of my childhood, and the beautiful Covered Bridge on the Honey Run Road between Paradise and nearby Chico, and a year before, a structural problem on the Oroville Dam came terrifyingly close to annihilating in a man-made tsunami the nearby cities of Oroville, Marysville and Yuba City (Marysville/Yuba City has a very large Sikh population from the Punjab, which has saved the city from falling as severely into the problems of methamphetamines abuse that has affected Redding to the north or various cities in Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and so on; likewise, while Fresno remains a meth haven, the Assyrian and the Eastern and Oirental Orthodox Christians in the central valley have through their pious conduct had a positive impact on the health of communities in the Central Valley and in the area between Sacramento and the Bay Area, which is home to a large Russian American diaspora. Also the area traditionally has had a large number of Basque Americans and Scandinavian Americans, with Kingsburg at one time having been something of Swedish American Medina to the Danish American Mecca that is Solvang in Central Calfiornia.
 
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The effort required to maintain a bogus moon landing hoax would exceed that of actually going to the moon.
If there is enough lure of a pile of money and power at stake, I put nothing past our government. Nothing.
 
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Jipsah

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If there is enough lure of a pile of money and power at stake, I put nothing past our government. Nothing.
So why not just go to the moon rather than faking it. especially if the real thing is cheaper?
 
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prodromos

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What makes absolutely no sense at all, is if the Japanese are faking their current lunar mission, why on earth would they fake a failure with their lander toppling over due to losing one of the engine nozzles during its descent. Given the extreme culture of saving face in Japan, it goes completely against their culture to fake anything but a completely successful mission.

It's the same for all the setbacks they suffered during the Apollo missions. What would be the point of faking a failure to land on the moon if it was all being filmed in a studio?
 
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Michael Snow

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What makes absolutely no sense at all, is if the Japanese are faking their current lunar mission, why on earth would they fake a failure with their lander toppling over due to losing one of the engine nozzles during its descent. Given the extreme culture of saving face in Japan, it goes completely against their culture to fake anything but a completely successful mission.

It's the same for all the setbacks they suffered during the Apollo missions. What would be the point of faking a failure to land on the moon if it was all being filmed in a studio?
BINGO!
 
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The Liturgist

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Maybe you can help the Voyager 1 folks. They have a glitch in their 50 year old software and the guys that wrote it are dead. Humanity’s most distant space probe jeopardized by computer glitch

NASA has the most qualified team possible working on the problem. Unfortunately there is no way to replace the running software; it seems likely that a hardware fault is causing memory corruption and the result is a lack of telemetry on Voyager 1 (fortunately Voyager 2 does not have this issue).

The only thing one might be able to do on the ground which the engineers are not already doing would be to program a simulator environment, but this would have been much easier to do 30 years ago; right now I would worry that it might not be possible to reliably duplicate all of their instruments and behavior, and it would certainly require more resources than the team has.

But their current plan, of changing the operating mode of the onboard systems, strikes me as a good idea, since it might require memory be reloaded, and if that doesn’t work, well, objectively, we aren’t really getting that much new or interesting information, and the atomic power cell will be depleted to the point that by 2028 or so instrumentation will have to start being brought offline, and soon thereafter we will lose communications. Alas there are no gas stations to pull into when your ride malfunctions or runs out of gas in interstellar space.
 
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RDKirk

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What makes absolutely no sense at all, is if the Japanese are faking their current lunar mission, why on earth would they fake a failure with their lander toppling over due to losing one of the engine nozzles during its descent. Given the extreme culture of saving face in Japan, it goes completely against their culture to fake anything but a completely successful mission.

It's the same for all the setbacks they suffered during the Apollo missions. What would be the point of faking a failure to land on the moon if it was all being filmed in a studio?
It would be said that they had to fake the landing after all the earlier setbacks convinced them they could never pull it off in reality.

However, the public reason for the Space Race was to beat the Russians to the moon. It was already known by the US, however, that the Soviets had killed off all their prominent rocket scientists in an accidental rocket explosion (Khrushchev had insisted they all be present for the launch of a new booster...but it exploded and simultaneously wiped out the brains behind their moon program).

Even then, there would not have been a reason for the US to continue a moon landing ruse after Apollo 11. The government could have dusted their hands, declared "Mission Accomplished" and gone back to concentrating on Viet Nam.

The big question, then, is: If the first landing was faked, why take the risk of continuing the ruse?
 
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The Liturgist

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It would be said that they had to fake the landing after all the earlier setbacks convinced them they could never pull it off in reality.

However, the public reason for the Space Race was to beat the Russians to the moon. It was already known by the US, however, that the Soviets had killed off all their prominent rocket scientists in an accidental rocket explosion (Khrushchev had insisted they all be present for the launch of a new booster...but it exploded and simultaneously wiped out the brains behind their moon program).

Even then, there would not have been a reason for the US to continue a moon landing ruse after Apollo 11. The government could have dusted their hands, declared "Mission Accomplished" and gone back to concentrating on Viet Nam.

The big question, then, is: If the first landing was faked, why take the risk of continuing the ruse?

And the answer is of course, there would be no reason. And indeed the footage from subsequent landings is so unassailable as to render the space flight conspiracy argument even more of a hoax than it is already.

Basically Flat Earthers claim their deductions are based on their own empircal observations, but they are really asking us to ignore our own experience, knowledge and common sense in order to believe in the most readily falsified of scientific claims.

And every time someone comes up with data that challenges the belief system of flat earthers, they adapt, either by devising a new set of falsehoods in support of their position, or by ignoring the challenging data. We saw this when a group of flat Earthers obtained a laser gyroscope only to discover that it indicated an inertial drift correspond with a spinning spheroid, and we see that at present when Flat Earthers are confronted with evidence that contradicts their assertion that flights around the South Pole actually do exist.

Indeed Kelsey, a friend of mine who is a 747 pilot with Atlas Air, even offered to assist flat earthers in organizing a non-stop charter flight from Buenos Aires to Melbourne, which is a 17 hour flight that passes almost directly over the South Pole. If the charter were to be fully booked it would work out to around $3,000-$4,000 per person, which I suggest is a small price to pay for Flat Earthers to be able to prove their claims, which would happen if, for example, the aircraft succesfully navigated the entire route.
 
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RDKirk

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And the answer is of course, there would be no reason. And indeed the footage from subsequent landings is so unassailable as to render the space flight conspiracy argument even more of a hoax than it is already.

Basically Flat Earthers claim their deductions are based on their own empircal observations, but they are really asking us to ignore our own experience, knowledge and common sense in order to believe in the most readily falsified of scientific claims.
They refuse even to make empirical observations that might disprove their claim...such as the same empirical observations made by the ancient Greeks.
 
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