To vote in favor of sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and tradition

[BobRyan]

rturner76 said:
100,000 different churches are leaning on their own understanding not the understanding the Apostles

BobRyan said:

Likely every single one of them would say that same thing about the Catholic church.

The Catholic CHurch leans on the understanding of the Apostles and their students. Not the writings of Calvin for example who was a lawyer.

1. Peter , James and John were fishermen.
2. Calvin was a Catholic who likely argued that he was relying on the same tradition ideas you claim to hold to.
3. you pivoted from "lean on understanding of the Apostles" to "apostles and their students".

And Paul pointed out in Acts 20:29-30 that some of those "students" were going to go off into grievous doctrinal error.

Others go with the interpretation they like the most and we go with the interpretation of the original Church founded by Christ

likely ever single denomination argues that same point.

Could it be because the CHurch of Jerusalem was made up of Jewish Christians? At that point there were no Gentile believers or they were few and far between.

Far be it from me to argue that only Jewish Christians in the NT had correct doctrine.

Are you forgetting how St Peter ended up agreeing with Paul that the Gentiles should not be bound by Jewish Law?

Paul said "all scripture is given by inspiration from God and is to be used for doctrine" 2 Tim 3:16.
Are we talking about the same "Paul"??

 

[rturner76]

Not true.

acts 17:11 says they HEARD his teaching then "studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken by the Apostle Paul were even SO at all".

These non-Christians did not first follow his teaching then later stop and ask "is this even a good thing"? That is not logical. Rather they tested it first and only then , once they found their own magisterium to be in error - and Paul to be the one with correct doctrine - did they "follow" his teaching.

a not-so-subtle detail , not to be missed

BobRyan said:

Likely every single one of them would say that same thing about the Catholic church.

1. Peter , James and John were fishermen.
2. Calvin was a Catholic who likely argued that he was relying on the same tradition ideas you claim to hold to.
3. you pivoted from "lean on understanding of the Apostles" to "apostles and their students".

Also, St Peter was a fisherman who was the Rock of the Church. Calvin argued he knew Scripture better than the Church that taught him what it means to be a Christian. THat's not a pivot, that is called the Apostolic Succession which means the Apostles taught their students who taught their students all the wat to this very day.

And Paul pointed out in Acts 20:29-30 that some of those "students" were going to go off into grievous doctrinal error.

That is why we have the Magisterium, so individuals who see things a different way can't just start a new church based on their own understanding.

likely ever single denomination argues that same point.

That's the thing the Catholic Church isn't a denomination. I'm sure doubters would say that because they lean on their own understanding and not the church that they belong to. It's arrogant to think you can interpret the scripture better than anybody else in the world thereby starting your own church based on your own understanding.

Far be it from me to argue that only Jewish Christians in the NT had correct doctrine.

I never said that only Jewish Christians had correct doctrine. I said the first Christians were Jewish and followed Jewish Law. When the Gentiles were grafted in, even Peter concluded that they didn't have to be physically circumcised but spiritually. St Peter accepting that fact made the other Apostles follow suit.

Paul said "all scripture is given by inspiration from God and is to be used for doctrine" 2 Tim 3:16.
Are we talking about the same "Paul"??

Did Paul also say "There is no need for you to have a teacher?" Trust God and lean not on your own understanding would seem to indicate that you need God's chosed to guide you through the scriptures, not just draw your own conclusions based on what you have read.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Not true.

acts 17:11 says they HEARD his teaching then "studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken by the Apostle Paul were even SO at all".

These non-Christians did not first follow his teaching then later stop and ask "is this even a good thing"? That is not logical. Rather they tested it first and only then , once they found their own magisterium to be in error - and Paul to be the one with correct doctrine - did they "follow" his teaching.

a not-so-subtle detail , not to be missed.

Indeed if you were to read scripture to non-Christians and perhaps even make stuff up, for a people whose own magisterium was on record as condemning your doctrine as heresy - it would be very illogical to tell them they must first accept your doctrine as true - before they tested it no matter that their established magesterium had condemned you.



According to Christ in Mark 7:7-13 they most certainly did that very thing
And in Acts 17:11 the Bereans had to come to that same conclusion in order to take Paul's teaching over the established magesterium.

I don't see how this is even a little bit difficult since it is central to what those two texts are saying.

Bob, the Jewish magisterium was under the Old Covenant. God gave them the law and said I will be your God and you shall be my people. He did not give them a promise to be free from error.
The New Covenant is different as the promise is of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus told the Apostles that He will guide you into all truth, and also the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. It is by that promise that the Church cannot teach error, and it does not contradict scripture.

Men have tried to come in and change doctrine and lead souls into error, and all have failed. The Church remains. Read the Catechism and tell me where it contradicts scripture. It remains the single document that reveals the entire truth of the Gospel. The promise of the Holy Spirit was not given to individual men, rather to the Church.
Men have fallen away, the Church remains

 

[Gary K]

The non-Christians of Acts 17:11 listened to Paul and modeled their worship after his teaching. They consulted scripture to make sure he was not deceiving them, but when verified they followed his teaching.

They did not read the scriptures on their own and construct their own teaching apart from Paul.

I would liken that to a believer today that reads the Catechism of the Catholic Church fully and in context and searches the scriptures to see weather it is true and consistent

Reading the scriptures on our own and constructing a teaching is a daunting task, and some concepts are difficult to grasp. Even Peter speaks of Paul having some hard teachings that some misunderstand and teach incorrectly.

It would be difficult if I would read the scriptures, and command people to listen to my interpretation, and keep myself free from error.

For myself, I remain open to reproof and correction. I rely on the Catechism and 2000 years of history. That reliance does not preclude me from reading and practicing contemplative prayer with the scriptures. The magisterium cannot contradict scripture, but their understanding is above mine

Devoted Catholics go through the Liturgy of the hours, also known as the breviary. It is a four volume set that goes through the entire Bible, Church History and lives of the saints, with references for further reading. It is read by breaking up the day into six separate hours of prayer and an office of readings. It is an obligation for priests, nuns and religious to pray the liturgy of the hours daily. They remain immersed in scripture, and some lay groups also follow the liturgy of the hours. The entire Bible is covered in three year cycles to give a more thorough study.

Catholics are not told to turn off their brain and ignore scripture. The scriptures are searched daily for the truth, and we have the promise of the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth.

We do not read the scriptures alone and refuse correction, as it is God’s will, “It is not good for man to be alone”

If you find an error in Church teaching or the Catechism, we can discuss it and search the scriptures to see if there really is an error

Why do you rely on yourself to keep yourself error free? Jesus promised us the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth.

John 16: 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

What Jesus said is very true about us.

Luke 12: 28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Hebrews 11: 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Jeremiah 29: 11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.*n3
12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

 

[rturner76]

Bob, the Jewish magisterium was under the Old Covenant. God gave them the law and said I will be your God and you shall be my people. He did not give them a promise to be free from error.
The New Covenant is different as the promise is of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus told the Apostles that He will guide you into all truth, and also the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. It is by that promise that the Church cannot teach error, and it does not contradict scripture.

Men have tried to come in and change doctrine and lead souls into error, and all have failed. The Church remains. Read the Catechism and tell me where it contradicts scripture. It remains the single document that reveals the entire truth of the Gospel. The promise of the Holy Spirit was not given to individual men, rather to the Church.
Men have fallen away, the Church remains

 

[Gary K]

So the devil is such a poor liar he will fail of deceiving church leaders? How can that be when he was able to deceive one third of the angels about God when they lived in His presence. He knows the Bible better than we do by far as he's been studying it for millenia just so he can warp and twist it's meaning..

 

[rturner76]

So the devil is such a poor liar he will fail of deceiving church leaders? How can that be when he was able to deceive one third of the angels about God when they lived in His presence. He knows the Bible better than we do by far as he's been studying it for millenia just so he can warp and twist it's meaning..

The gates of hell will not prevail. Many Peotestents warp anf twist scripture. Have YOU been deceived? Is that how you know Satan is a deceiver?

 

[Gary K]

The gates of hell will not prevail. Many Peotestents warp anf twist scripture. Have YOU been deceived? Is that how you know Satan is a deceiver?

If I was deceived right now I would think I believed truth.

I know the devil is a deceiver because the Bible tells us he is.

John 8: 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Why do you rely on yourself to keep yourself error free? Jesus promised us the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth.

John 16: 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

What Jesus said is very true about us.

Luke 12: 28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Hebrews 11: 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Jeremiah 29: 11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.*n3
12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Jesus promised the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth. If was to individual Christians, we would be united, but that takes humility, which many are deceived into not being necessary.

Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church, not individual Christians. Individuals destroy, God builds up.
We have only to look at the results.
There is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Satan attacks her without and within.
Those without have watered down the Gospel so much to make it meaningless. Look at the fruits. In Protestant assemblies we had a phone book called the Shepherd’s Guide to get us to support “Christian” businesses. Those that wanted quality work used it to know what businesses to avoid, as the quality was substandard, others supported them as charity for God. If a Christian showed up at work, we would automatically know that the department would be disrupted as he was all about himself. I rarely found humility as is proper for saints, including myself, so I left that environment.

Brothers , this should not be. When you work, you represent our Lord and should be above reproach, and work twice as hard as the unbeliever without considering yourself. Remember the Sermon on the Mount? Love your enemies and work twice as hard as you are asked to do?

No, individuals do not appear to be lead into all truth if we can’t get simple humility correct

 

[boughtwithaprice]

So the devil is such a poor liar he will fail of deceiving church leaders? How can that be when he was able to deceive one third of the angels about God when they lived in His presence. He knows the Bible better than we do by far as he's been studying it for millenia just so he can warp and twist it's meaning..

We never said Church leaders cannot be deceived. It is the Apostolic Church that was given the promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. Satan sends in the tares among the wheat. Christ tells us that he does and will continue to do so.

Christ also commands us to let the tares grow along side the wheat and God will take care of them at the harvest. We do not attempt to kill the tares, which is what schism attempts to do. This makes it a direct defiance of the command of God.
The Church is full of tares. Oh my we have to run away and have a wheat only club!! How has that worked out?

God says that he knows the tares are there. Stay in the Church, obey Jesus command
Study the faith, love your enemies, return not evil for evil but overcome evil what good. Fear not the tares in the Church, but follow Christ’s command concerning sin

If your brother sins against you go and tell him alone, if he hears you, you have won your brother. If not then bring two or three witnesses, if he won’t hear them, tell it to the whole church
If he won’t listen to the Church then treat him as a tax collector or sinner.

Christ never authorized us to declare the Church so corrupt that we seek to destroy her
That is not part of Christian teaching

 

[Gary K]

We never said Church leaders cannot be deceived. It is the Apostolic Church that was given the promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. Satan sends in the tares among the wheat. Christ tells us that he does and will continue to do so.

Christ also commands us to let the tares grow along side the wheat and God will take care of them at the harvest. We do not attempt to kill the tares, which is what schism attempts to do. This makes it a direct defiance of the command of God.
The Church is full of tares. Oh my we have to run away and have a wheat only club!! How has that worked out?

God says that he knows the tares are there. Stay in the Church, obey Jesus command
Study the faith, love your enemies, return not evil for evil but overcome evil what good. Fear not the tares in the Church, but follow Christ’s command concerning sin

If your brother sins against you go and tell him alone, if he hears you, you have won your brother. If not then bring two or three witnesses, if he won’t hear them, tell it to the whole church
If he won’t listen to the Church then treat him as a tax collector or sinner.

Christ never authorized us to declare the Church so corrupt that we seek to destroy her
That is not part of Christian teaching

I never said to destroy the church. I said we need to be aware that the church can and will be corrupted. Paul warned it was already happening in his day.

2Thessalonians 2: 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

That the mystery of iniquity was already at work in the church means we need to be very careful as to what we accept from the church and it's leaders. It's always been the leadership of the church that has led the common man into error. It was the kings of Israel who led the nations of Israel and Judah into idolatry. It was the Pharisees who led the common man into rejecting Jesus. Christians are no different than Jews. We are just as susceptible to the devils lies as the Jews were as none of us are as smart as he is. That he is so subtle in his deceptions that he was able to deceive one third of the angels about who God is while they were living in His very presence ought to make us exceedingly cautious as to what we believe. We need to rely on scripture alone instead of on sinful men,

Matthew 7: 15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 16: 6 ¶ Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Jesus would not have warned us about church leadership if the warning was not needed and He didn't give it only once. We need to take His advice.

 

[Gary O']

I never said to destroy the church. I said we need to be aware that the church can and will be corrupted.

Amen to that!

 

[rturner76]

If I was deceived right now I would think I believed truth.

I know the devil is a deceiver because the Bible tells us he is.

John 8: 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

That is why I think we need the support of the Church to properly interpret scripture. On our own, I believe we are more open to deception as we rely on our own thoughts and our own reasoning. That doesn't mean we can't test other's theological positions with our own study. I just think we are more likely to be deceived or misdirected on our own.

 

[Gary K]

That is why I think we need the support of the Church to properly interpret scripture. On our own, I believe we are more open to deception as we rely on our own thoughts and our own reasoning. That doesn't mean we can't test other's theological positions with our own study. I just think we are more likely to be deceived or misdirected on our own.

Why rely on our own reasoning? That seems foolish to me.

John 16: 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Jesus has given us all we need to know to find truth.

The Bible tells us how earnest we must be for this to happen.

Jeremiah 29:12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Nothing less is acceptable to God. He informs us of this in Psalm 119.

Psalm 119: 1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.*n1

2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.

3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I never said to destroy the church. I said we need to be aware that the church can and will be corrupted. Paul warned it was already happening in his day.

2Thessalonians 2: 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

That the mystery of iniquity was already at work in the church means we need to be very careful as to what we accept from the church and it's leaders. It's always been the leadership of the church that has led the common man into error. It was the kings of Israel who led the nations of Israel and Judah into idolatry. It was the Pharisees who led the common man into rejecting Jesus. Christians are no different than Jews. We are just as susceptible to the devils lies as the Jews were as none of us are as smart as he is. That he is so subtle in his deceptions that he was able to deceive one third of the angels about who God is while they were living in His very presence ought to make us exceedingly cautious as to what we believe. We need to rely on scripture alone instead of on sinful men,

Matthew 7: 15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 16: 6 ¶ Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Jesus would not have warned us about church leadership if the warning was not needed and He didn't give it only once. We need to take His advice.

What you say is true, but it does not justify schism and forming new denominations

 

[Gary K]

What you say is true, but it does not justify schism and forming new denominations

Huh? What choice did the Reformers have? They were burned at the stake for for owning a Bible. The Waldenses and Vaudois were persecuted, hunted down and murdered for spreading the scriptures. Zwingli was injured in battle and then murdered when his opponents found out he was lying on the battlefield. His body was cut in pieces afterwards. The Hugenots were massacred for their scriptural beliefs. Huss and Jerome were burnt at the stake while they sang hymns praising God.

Those actions are not the actions of Godly men. I couldn't/wouldn't defend an organization that would do those things to other Christians, or even pagans. God tells us to love our fellow man.

 

[rturner76]

Jesus has given us all we need to know to find truth.

The Bible tells us how earnest we must be for this to happen.

So if that is the case, I wonder why there are 100,000 different "truths" when I believe all of these new churches were started by people who studied the Bible in earnest hopefully with the Holy Spirit as a guide. I wonder why would the Holy Spirit would lead men 100,000 different ways?

I mean, should we discount a verse like this?Luke 6:40
A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher

Or this one: Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

Or from the Old Testament: Proverbs 1:1-33
The proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel: To know wisdom and instruction, to understand words of insight, to receive instruction in wise dealing, in righteousness, justice, and equity; to give prudence to the simple, knowledge and discretion to the youth— Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance, ...

So, while we do know that the Holy Spirit guides us in understanding scripture, there still is a need for a good and educated teacher to guide us in our learning. I'm sure you don't believe that the Bible contradicts itself so interpreting scripture properly by someone who is an expert is surely more profitable than studying on one's own and interpreting scripture based on one's own understanding of what they are reading, drawing their own conclusions as to the context and the proper way to apply it to one's life.

 

[Gary K]

So if that is the case, I wonder why there are 100,000 different "truths" when I believe all of these new churches were started by people who studied the Bible in earnest hopefully with the Holy Spirit as a guide. I wonder why would the Holy Spirit would lead men 100,000 different ways?

I mean, should we discount a verse like this?Luke 6:40
A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher

Or this one: Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

Or from the Old Testament: Proverbs 1:1-33
The proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel: To know wisdom and instruction, to understand words of insight, to receive instruction in wise dealing, in righteousness, justice, and equity; to give prudence to the simple, knowledge and discretion to the youth— Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance, ...

So, while we do know that the Holy Spirit guides us in understanding scripture, there still is a need for a good and educated teacher to guide us in our learning. I'm sure you don't believe that the Bible contradicts itself so interpreting scripture properly by someone who is an expert is surely more profitable than studying on one's own and interpreting scripture based on one's own understanding of what they are reading, drawing their own conclusions as to the context and the proper way to apply it to one's life.

Why is this mysterious to you? History explains it perfectly. How many people believed God that He was going to destroy the earth with a flood? Exactly 8. How many people believed Jesus was the son of God out of the entire nation of Judah? 120 or so. The vast majority of people have always rejected truth in favor of error. And leadership has always led out in rejecting truth..

 

[rturner76]

Why is this mysterious to you? History explains it perfectly. How many people believed God that He was going to destroy the earth with a flood? Exactly 8. How many people believed Jesus was the son of God out of the entire nation of Judah? 120 or so. The vast majority of people have always rejected truth in favor of error. And leadership has always led out in rejecting truth..

I don't completely understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that people who rely on their own interpretation are in error or people who follow a teacher? What I think you are saying is that both self-taught people AND people who are taught by the church are both ib error. Sorry if I am coming across as dense but this post is kind of confusing to me.

Are you saying that we are better off teaching ourselves or better off folowing the interpretation of God's Church?

 

[Gary K]

I don't completely understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that people who rely on their own interpretation are in error or people who follow a teacher? What I think you are saying is that both self-taught people AND people who are taught by the church are both ib error. Sorry if I am coming across as dense but this post is kind of confusing to me.

Are you saying that we are better off teaching ourselves or better off folowing the interpretation of God's Church?

We are better off by far to trust the Holy Spirit to lead us. Always ask for the presence of the Spirit whenever we open the Bible to read/study it. And ask God to overcome our preconceptions and lead us into what He would have us to learn. He has promised He will do that for us and He is completely trustworthy. He will do what He has promised. Then we can know without a doubt that He is guiding/teaching us.