Why we should believe God created all of Nature, and what that means...

OldAbramBrown

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I'm not ... don't believe?
Mankind were like Adam and Eve before Adam and Eve: that couple specifically are icons to hang a story (with meanings) on.

"God created mankind in His image" means that only a sovereign God would be capable of creating people capable defending each other's integrity in a contingent universe.

That has something central to do with our mode of future salvation.

When His Son who is equal with His Father, took on the injustices that inflict everybody, from those whose integrity wasn't enough to use their discretion kindly, He Ascended and sent Holy Spirit power for living.

I'm not an evangelist but I will say churches for hundreds of years have tended to teach indistinctly about Holy Spirit - and find it convenient to airbrush contingency out of reality altogether (ironic since it supports creation even in the context of various hypotheses).
 
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OldAbramBrown

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... the nature of humans is made by God, but also called sin by Religion? Did God mess up? Is religion trying to scare or control people?

I don't get it
You're right to not get it because sadly as my post 61 mentions, some churches and prominent religious figures to varying extents have fallen back on this. They can't allow Holy Spirit to give us assurance. Fake swagger and throwing around weight is not the "blessed assurance" I used to hear about even as I survived on the fringes in my own sometimes troubled young day. Out of their own codependency which they now cling onto, they blur the distinction. What they exhibit is human nature before allowing God's help. The Bible is addressed to the problems of Christian leaders (don't browbeat, etc) but they don't realise that. Jeremiah records God's view of leaders of "revivalism" under Josiah. Hoping you will be safe somehow (same as I hope for myself single in old age).
 
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StuartB

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You're right to not get it because sadly as my post 61 mentions, some churches and prominent religious figures to varying extents have fallen back on this. They can't allow Holy Spirit to give us assurance. Fake swagger and throwing around weight is not the "blessed assurance" I used to hear about even as I survived on the fringes in my own sometimes troubled young day. Out of their own codependency which they now cling onto, they blur the distinction. What they exhibit is human nature before allowing God's help. The Bible is addressed to the problems of Christian leaders (don't browbeat, etc) but they don't realise that. Jeremiah records God's view of leaders of "revivalism" under Josiah. Hoping you will be safe somehow (same as I hope for myself single in old age).
I'm really starting to believe that God isn't religious.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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... Roman 11:32 states that God has consigned everyone to disobedience and unbelief, so that he may show mercy on all ...
As a figure of speech, that means that their adherence to just the surface, of dill tithing and such, and accusing those ignorant of the Law of wilfulness (when it probably wasn't) may be imputed as insufficient to do God's will which is kindness towards each other.

Dispensation 1a was rolling out the current Revelation first to a certain clan or group of tribes (and meantime the usage of metaphorical actions in ceremonies was a familiar thing), so that a moment could be chosen to roll it out further (dispensation 1b).

The prophets constantly reminded the Hebrews that they no less than the gentiles, were invited to be truly "grafted in". Jesus was doing no more than reminding them of the same thing but explained in greater detail how Holy Spirit would be here after His ascension. The current period is one when this is still open to all and events of AD 70 or 130, or events in the churches meanwhile, didn't change that fact.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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... It seems like God doesn't want us to get it.

Many religious leaders indeed tell us that. The trick is to uncouple our hypothesis of god or salvation from theirs. They are not an authority. I wait till I hear different from someone else (and that's just me). There is no one story about god.

Belief of believers comes when they infer for themselves things that may or may not be in line with what they hear in one quarter or another. Even some genuine ones may not realise that's what they are doing. It may be logically tentative and provisional.

We used to have "blessed assurance" when teachings were relatively distinct. God will do something about bad teachers somehow, but what we have to do about them is do not accept their paradigm / template (conceptual basis). Refuse to fight on their chosen ground.

Only a sovereign God could create people capable of defending another's integrity in a contingent world at their own discretion and send Holy Spirit help for this. Functional Holy Spirit deniers (who deny that they are denying Holy Spirit) and contingency deniers give the game away once you learn to see how. Contingency supports creation so they show themselves up. Red flags: bossiness, browbeating, slipperiness, emotional codependency.

The real God always expected us to make up our own minds in our own time (and this used to be taught). That always included leaving the jury out longer, on the mass of confusing "claims" (a worse mass than in my young day).
 
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stevevw

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To fully believe in God is so much more than just believing God is behind a few things...

God is the creator of all things John chapter 1 tells us -- and that means (as the words say) everything


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.



So, God created everything of nature...

That means not only the things in nature, but also nature itself, the design of nature -- how nature works -- all aspects of nature!

Anything in it. So, photosynthesis, but more...

Electrical fields/currents... Gravity. Magnetism.

Chemistry.

Every aspect -- all of physics and chemistry.

Therefore all things that happen naturally through the design of nature -- everything that happens in and of physics, chemistry -- is simply Nature doing what God made it to do.

So that all of creation then unfolds and works, like a flower unfolding from a seed, by His design.

Many think (I'm not alone in this) that also at times God intervened during the special preparation of Earth in particular. (for example, He might have chosen to let certain asteroids and comets hit Earth, but not others, deflecting the ones He didn't want to be part of Earth...)

So, then you have both nature operating as God made it to do, and also additionally He intervened at times to make Earth a perfect home for us.

That all is 'creation' and it's also all natural events, including all natural events -- there's no difference! Geology, you name it -- it's all merely part of creation, just like chemistry or gravity, etc.

The entire debates about science vs creationism comes from a mistaken premise: the false premise that if nature works wonderfully for life -- when we see that nature can cause and support living things -- that somehow that is wrongly thought to mean that God didn't do that....

It's an irrational premise really.

Anyone should consider the opposite idea, which makes a lot more sense: God existing would certainly make nature work perfectly to support/give rise to life....

Like we read in Genesis 1:11

11 Then God said, “Let the earth produce vegetation..."


That means anyone trying to argue any natural thing (even any evidence of evolution) would somehow disprove God is not believing in God, or perhaps not fully assuming that God is God.... The Creator of all of Nature.

To argue that any evolution would disprove God is very much like trying to argue that the Earth being an oblate sphere proves God doesn't exist (since certain verses read in isolation can be suggested to be read to suggest the Earth is flat, if you come to the text with that idea ahead of time.... but if we read the bible through (instead of only isolated verses) -- full reading -- with more a listening attitude, then we don't miss the meaning in full context.)

-------

We read in the bible that God uses visions to communicate, more than any other way.

3 The boy Samuel ministered before the Lord under Eli. In those days the word of the Lord was rare; there were not many visions. -- 1 Sam 3:1

Of course, as you know from reading it, the Bible has very many visions in it, not just given only to prophets like Isaiah or Ezekiel, but to very many.

6 he said, “Listen to my words:

When there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord,
reveal myself to them in visions,
I speak to them in dreams."


Numbers 12 NIV


As we know, of course, the person who received the revelation from God written down in Genesis chapter 1 was not actually there in person -- the writer was not there in the beginning (Christ was, but not any mortal human!).

So, Genesis chapter 1 is of course revealed to us through a mortal human being who was given a revelation from God...

Genesis chapter 1 has both visually seen parts and also literally spoken words from God, both.

See it --

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

The person receiving this then would see some of it, (as in a vision) -- visually see some key things that happened -- and also hear some spoken words from God, which are in quotation marks for us.

Both.

3 And God said, Let there be light,and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 1 - New International Version


So, as you see, we are reading the actual spoken Words from God here -- literally spoken words!!! (They are in quotation marks.)

Let's read some more visions to notice that happening.


Peter’s Vision
9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

17 While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon’s house was and stopped at the gate. ...

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 10 - New International Version


We also read in the Bible over and over someone receiving a vision, but not at first fully understanding it (or not in all ways) (or even sometimes not at all) for a time!


----
8 During the night I had a vision, and there before me was a man mounted on a red horse. He was standing among the myrtle trees in a ravine. Behind him were red, brown and white horses.

9 I asked, “What are these, my lord?”

The angel who was talking with me answered, “I will show you what they are.”

Bible Gateway passage: Zechariah 1 - New International Version



----

So, we can expect it's likely that person given the amazing creation vision in Genesis 1 would not naturally be able to understand every aspect of what he was seeing immediately, but would be given to understand the most important things (or soon): that God created all that is, and made Earth a "good" and a "very good" home for us!....

Let's think about how the person first seeing this vision would not entirely understand every aspect of creation, just like Peter didn't at first understand above....

How could anyone thousands of years ago understand seeing Earth as being entirely a water world for example!?

How could anyone understand seeing an ocean that it meant that all the Earth was for a time just oceans....

How would they be able to know that seeing an ocean vision was about the entire Earth?

They could know -- we can know -- only when God helps us to understand.

Thus in the vision, we are given spoken words to explain this...the passage of time is shown with 'days' with a morning and evening.

That's
familiar: morning time and evening time: I can understand this vision now -- it's here on Earth, and this is a day!....

In this way, the person receiving this amazing vision that would have been beyond their comprehension could begin to understand it was Earth he was seeing, being made.

And time is passing. In fact, we read that the reason we live under a wonderful starry sky instead of for instance a blank grey dome overhead is to help us notice the passage of time (in our mortal bodies: that we haven't forever in these bodies, and we should realize time is fleeting here...):

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years..."

Time is passing, Earth is changing, then, the vision conveys to the wondering person seeing these amazing sights...

Of course, God can do all things, and doesn't have to work slowly, but could make Earth in 1 day, or 1 hour.....

But that would be less beneficial to us. It's better if we can notice that God is blessing us with work over time to make Earth a wonderful blessed home (initially) for us....

So, in this vision, creation is shown in a way we can understand.

It's understandable to us mortal humans. According to what people can understand.

For example, when Christ told the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, the words Christ chose for that audience listening at that moment in time (all descendents of Abraham) is that literally-rendered Lazarus goes to be in the "bosom of Abraham" (in the most word for word literal translation):

"And it came to pass, that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the messengers into the bosom of Abraham—and the rich man also died, and was buried;"
Luke 16:22

Of course, heaven isn't mainly just to be at Abraham's side, nor is Abraham the central gathering person around which heaven will be... But Christ spoke in a way his listeners could understand at that moment in time.

So God also spoke words in Genesis 1 to make it clear to us that Earth was being formed/changed over time.

And the main thing we get repeated 7 times: that our home was made to be "good" for us. "Very good"....

The spoken words are enough to help make it clear -- God made our home Earth -- everything. And made it wonderful, a truly wonderful place to be.

----------

Here it's good to be sure to be clear -- visions aren't like a mere video recording or mere photograph. (it would be a disrespectful cartoon version of God to claim so!)

Of course God didn't need to set up a recorder/camera and record creation scenes so He would be able to later replay the recording for the person given this revelation in Genesis 1....

Instead, all visions are actually given from God -- He creates the vision for us.

The vision itself is created.

Made in a way so that we can (eventually) understand what we never could otherwise understand.

An actual video recording would have been even harder to comprehend we can guess....too distracting with too many details that aren't the main point.

A vision is always a kind of stylized representation of something important. A created scene.

As a parallel analogy, visions are more like (analogy) something drawn by hand or such -- in analogy, more like an drawing or animation drawing than like a video recording or photo from a camera, in the sense they are entirely created and won't have too many endless details that are beside the point being communicated.

They are stylized representations you could say. They are like something, instead of being a photo recording of something.

The Genesis 1 revelation is such a wonderful vision of course, and reading it can lift us up out of our base mind into a higher state of mind, ready to hear God's words to come in the scripture....

We should always take a time to sometimes read to just listen to the chapter, without thinking about any debate or doctrinal thing we heard, etc.

---------

That's the main best thing we must gain from Genesis 1 -- just pure listening to hear and be lifted up, ready to continue reading the word....

I hope if anyone ever listens to anything about Genesis 1, they will take from this that we should occasionally read even this chapter we've read 10 or 20 times already with just pure reading to just listen (to lay aside all previous and other stuff, even our own ideas or doctrines, and just purely listen to God's word). It's so wonderful!
Explaining evolution doesn't necessarily mean denying God as creator. It could be just explaining how God created everything. Explanations don't create they just explain what is. They don't account for what is.

I like what Professor John Lennox says on this about how math seems to be reflected in the universe and how some say that it may be math or information that brought about the universe itself. Something cannot come from nothing. Math doesn't come tumbling out of nothing but rather it takes a mind. If anything the universe reflecting math shows there is a mind behind it.


Maybe that mind was there from the very start in Gods Word. It makes sense that if the earth is perfect for intelligent and conscious life to exist then the settings for this was there from the very beginning. It wasn't a case that God had to intervene as he already put that in place from the beginning.

If Mind and Consciousness are behind everything then perhaps there is some aspect of reality that is conscious and as a result creation is no unconscious and its ultimate aim is 'Us' conscious beings able to have relations with the mind behind everything. In that sense I believe that is how Gods creation is odered.
 
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Halbhh

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Explaining evolution doesn't necessarily mean denying God as creator. It could be just explaining how God created everything. Explanations don't create they just explain what is. They don't account for what is.

I like what Professor John Lennox says on this about how math seems to be reflected in the universe and how some say that it may be math or information that brought about the universe itself. Something cannot come from nothing. Math doesn't come tumbling out of nothing but rather it takes a mind. If anything the universe reflecting math shows there is a mind behind it.


Maybe that mind was there from the very start in Gods Word. It makes sense that if the earth is perfect for intelligent and conscious life to exist then the settings for this was there from the very beginning. It wasn't a case that God had to intervene as he already put that in place from the beginning.

If Mind and Consciousness are behind everything then perhaps there is some aspect of reality that is conscious and as a result creation is no unconscious and its ultimate aim is 'Us' conscious beings able to have relations with the mind behind everything. In that sense I believe that is how Gods creation is odered.
Reading your interesting post, one familiar thought came to mind: "what a wonderful world".

Which brings to mind a fav song:


The magnificent, breath taking quality of reality....

...
Can't get enough of that, right?

More:
 
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stevevw

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Reading your interesting post, one familiar thought came to mind: "what a wonderful world".

Which brings to mind a fav song:


The magnificent, breath taking quality of reality....

...
Can't get enough of that, right?

More:
Great stuff. I like the image from the Webb telescope showing Gods handy work.
1695200609800.png
 
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Halbhh

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I would think if Christ or God wanted everyone saved he would've made it plain and simple. It seems like God doesn't want us to get it.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

(John 3)


To believe in Christ as our Savior -- saving us from the rightful ultimate consequences of our (real and meaningful) sins we have all done, so that instead of being excluded from heaven, we are cleansed, changed and made ready for Eternal Life with God.
 
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Jipsah

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Not true.

God is fully able to accurately communicate real life events in a vision.
But not about His Body and Blood.

Right.

Or maybe it's just that some have things they simply aren't willing to hear.

"
He can't have meant that! That's just crazy!

Hmmmm...
 
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Aaron112

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I'm really starting to believe that God isn't religious.

I would think if Christ or God wanted everyone saved he would've made it plain and simple. It seems like God doesn't want us to get it.
Unless a man becomes like a little infant/child, he can never see the Kingdom of Heaven.
 
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BobRyan

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"This is My Body..."
And to use symbolism as in John 6 - where no one "bites Christ" not even the faithful disciples since it is obviously a symbol
Just as in Matt 16 - leaven and bread are also used as symbols for "teaching".
But day, night, evening, morning, 1 day are all terms that appeared to the readers to mean just what they said in Gen 1-2 such that even the legal code of Ex 20:11 hardwired that timeline to be the same as the 7 day week at Sinai...
 
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I would think if Christ or God wanted everyone saved he would've made it plain and simple. It seems like God doesn't want us to get it.
Well this part is pretty easy.

1. Day .. evening and morning... "are one day" according to Genesis 1. As everyone knows
2. Neither Moses nor his readers were Darwinists - as everyone on planet Earth pretty much agrees.
3. That means Moses' readers were not about to "read Darwinism into" his text. And that means Exegesis demands a literal day for each of the 7 days in Gen 1-2.

So that is not the hard part.

4. God says in Gen 1 that he created all life on Earth in that period of time and that He formatted planet Earth with the dividing of oceans and continents, and Sun and moon - all in that 7 day period where He makes "TWO Lights" in the sky on day 4 (not a zillion and two). People can all see that this is what the text says. And no one in Moses' day had any need to "make it" say anything else. So again exegesis demands we admit it.

that part is not very hard either.
 
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