Gays and Lesbians (GLBT) versus Christians

wanderingone

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Why should a person not be free NOT to sell a gay couple his house? Is anything less, real freedom? Another may choose to sell his house only to "homosexual couples." A person cannot really tell if a person is a practicing homosexual unless that person or persons make it an issue. A marriage is the union establishing a husband and wife as a single unit. Two husbands nor two wives cannot form such a unit. But I cannot prevent two people from pretending.

Oh my gosh.. I said a gay person-not couple... / because housing discrimination is a HUGE way to create divided communities and opportunities.
 
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TheManeki

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I was listen to a pastor telling of himself. Trying to get know a neighbor that had a nice size garden. Making a conversation piece he started a garden of his own. Having planted rows of tomatoes. One row came up while the other had not. Asking the neighbor why that was. He said their could be three explanations. 1. You could have planted the seed to shallow and the sun scorched it. 2. You could have planted the seed to deep and it died before it came up. 3. You just planted it deeper and its taking it a little longer to show itself. The pastor being curious put the shovel into the dirt to see if it was growing and cut the head of the plant coming up off. The point is no one knows if the seed is growing in another or if or when it shall pop up.Only God can! That why his justice is and will be perfect; however we can see the life of a Christian growing. Another point to be made. No one see's themselves as evil.

Of course, if we fallible humans do not share the perceptions of the divine and cannot discern what is really going on, it seems like an act of supreme hubris to claim such-and-such a place is feeling the wrath of the almighty.
 
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Eve_Sundancer

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allhart said:
My post is towards the one's using words to rob the debate of truth. Deflecting the topics by robbing the voice of truth by statements of discrimination or racial and by making claims that Christians are bigots. Its like when a couple is fighting and one of them no matter what wants to keep the upper hand ,so they throw out a threat. Like, You keep talking to me that way and will get a divorce. Robbing the other of the argument. So does the gay movement. Rob us of the truth of this debate.

No one here has called all Christians bigots. They've simply stated that they don't like it when some Christians act like bigots, and they don't like it when some Christians try to stomp out the rights of other free citizens of the U.S. Did you know there are several Christians here arguing on the side of the GLBT community? There are. So why would we call all Christians bigots?

You're free to believe whatever you want, but as soon as you try to put your individual belief into law you're crossing a line. This is a country founded on the principle of freedom for everyone. In fact the people that first came over here were fleeing from the very thing we've become. They wanted to practice their religion freely, and they were being persecuted for it. They formed this country in the hopes that no one could be persecuted on the grounds of religion here.

Now some people want the same rights everyone else has regarding marriage, and they're being told no based on one religion's interpretation of the truth. This is outrageous. Because of the separation of church and state we should be catering to no one religion... if this were a theocracy we'd be well within our "rights" to forbid same-sex marriage. But we're not.
 
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allhart

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There are people who see themselves as evil, there are far more who are willing to toss the label about a little too willingly -- seems to make them feel better about their own indiscretions[/quot I hear ya.I feel prone to speak out as a Warrior of God as well, but we live with Gods grace and his love for us, in that not one shall perish. We don't have any enemy per say only inflictions of the enemy. So doing all that we can for the love of Gods people. Hoping to make a conduit God can use for the Glory be to God. Out of love and with respect. Which I need more of.
 
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wanderingone

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Well, I haven't heard of SC having a single one of those problems and with the new Exodus thing and SC's general reputation... maybe he is on to something here...

Yeah but they have Parris Island- if you're already doing time in hell you deserve a break when you're off base... certainly God won't rain down locusts when he's already sent drill instructors
 
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Sheeple

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Yes it is hate speech. It is a fine example of the tactic you were employing in your last thread that racists use to justify their behavior. once again you are trying to compare a minority to a group of sexual criminals just as racists do.

Observe what happens when we take your argument for the justification of hatred of our gay and lesbian brothers and sister and change the minority:

“In fact it is a logical point that says, if all groups used the same logic that blacks do to justify their lifestyle, then we don't have the right to say any behavior is wrong. Who are we to say that rapist is wrong to sexually assault white women if he insists that he was born that way, yet this is the logic that blacks use to justify their behavior.”

Bigotry is bigotry no matter who the target is


Why do you think I am gay?
Because I don’t hate homosexuals?


I think it is wrong to justify anti-Semitism and make false claims that the Nazi’s didn’t murder millions of Jews during the second world war. Do you think that because I don’t hate Jews that makes me Jewish?

I believe that kidnapping random black men and murdering them is wrong. I support civil rights and reject racism. Do you think that because I don’t hate African Americans that makes me black?

The original point that I made is that just because someone says, "I believe a person having sex with a member of the same sex is wrong" [insert wrong for whatever reason here]. How is this hate speach?

Essentially what you are saying is, because I disagree with gay sex or a person who has gay sex..that I hate the person. I"m not saying this at all and I would venture to say that most people who point out this same thing does not hate as well.

"your lifestyle is wrong" does not = "I hate you, and hate homosexuals" it = " your lifestyle is wrong". If you disagree with my statement, then you disagree and state you case why, etc. However, essentially what you and others are saying is that if a person disagree's with some facet of your life style they are in essence engaging in hate speech.

So in your post that I quoted..all I'm doing is pointing out that if you follow this logic [if I disagree with some part of your behavior I'm engaging in hate speach] to its logical conclusion...we would never be able to disagree with anyone else's behavior because we would be guilty have hate speach.
 
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allhart

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The original point that I made is that just because someone says, "I believe a person having sex with a member of the same sex is wrong" [insert wrong for whatever reason here]. How is this hate speach?

Essentially what you are saying is, because I disagree with gay sex or a person who has gay sex..that I hate the person. I"m not saying this at all and I would venture to say that most people who point out this same thing does not hate as well.

"your lifestyle is wrong" does not = "I hate you, and hate homosexuals" it = " your lifestyle is wrong". If you disagree with my statement, then you disagree and state you case why, etc. However, essentially what you and others are saying is that if a person disagree's with some facet of your life style they are in essence engaging in hate speech.

So in your post that I quoted..all I'm doing is pointing out that if you follow this logic [if I disagree with some part of your behavior I'm engaging in hate speach] to its logical conclusion...we would never be able to disagree with anyone else's behavior because we would be guilty have hate speach.
This is their agenda and very frustrating needless to say. Any thing we say they try to turn upside down on our head. statements in the realm of bigotry, discrimination or claims of racisim. Nothing on truth of the matters at hand.Not enemys only inflicted by the enemy.
 
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Sheeple

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This is their agenda and very frustrating needless to say. Any thing we say they try to turn upside down on our head. statements in the realm of bigotry, discrimination or claims of racisim. Nothing on truth of the matters at hand.Not enemys only inflicted by the enemy.

And this is precisely why I call this tactic Rhetorical Terrorism.
 
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Polycarp_fan

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So you're saying that gay people are overfed, unconcerned about others, and don't help the poor and needy?

???

Why on earth do you feel the need to misrepresent gay people so much? You do know there's a commandment about bearing false witness, don't you?

David.

Care to respond to the rest of my post? It is so typical of the spin tactic what you people do. I just compared apples to apples. And responded to the Ezekiel offering. He nails the lascvious crowd to a tee.
 
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Polycarp_fan

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Here ya go David:

Originally Posted by BigBadWlf
"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did hateful things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.”
Ezekiel 16: 49-50
Posted by Polycarp_fan:

"They were haughty AND did hateful things before me."

Sounds like the Gay Agenda to me. Not only the overfed and unconcerned assertion, but not helping the poor and needy part as well.

Keep on reading in Ezekiel, and you will get to the graphic sexual parts that bear a strinking resemblence to gay (and porn) erotica.

Those Hebrews Prophets are amazing.

Haughty for example. Quite the translation:

(hô
prime.gif
t
emacr.gif
)
adj. haugh·ti·er, haugh·ti·est Scornfully and condescendingly proud. See Synonyms at proud.

[From Middle English haut, from Old French haut, halt, alteration (influenced by Frankish h
omacr.gif
h
, high) of Latin altus, high; see al-2 in Indo-European roots.]
haugh
prime.gif
ti·ly
adv.
haugh
prime.gif
ti·ness
n.


proud

(proud)
adj. proud·er, proud·est 1. Feeling pleasurable satisfaction over an act, possession, quality, or relationship by which one measures one's stature or self-worth: proud of one's child; proud to serve one's country.
2. Occasioning or being a reason for pride: "On January 1, 1900, Americans and Europeans greeted the twentieth century in the proud and certain belief that the next hundred years would make all things possible" W. Bruce Lincoln.
3. Feeling or showing justifiable self-respect.
4. Filled with or showing excessive self-esteem.
5. Of great dignity; honored: a proud name.
6. Majestic; magnificent: proud alpine peaks.
7. Spirited. Used of an animal: proud steeds.
__________________
 
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allhart

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Here ya go David:

Originally Posted by BigBadWlf
"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did hateful things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.”
Ezekiel 16: 49-50
Posted by Polycarp_fan:
I like it when someone is Gods conduit for the world to see. Glory be to God for in the end everyone shall bow there knee in acknowledgment of he that made thy and there will be great disappointment for the worlds rampage will be over.In there fun and kicks will be judged by the righteous. Meaning (us) Christians.
 
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Crazy Liz

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I like it when someone is Gods conduit for the world to see. Glory be to God for in the end everyone shall bow there knee in acknowledgment of he that made thy and there will be great disappointment for the worlds rampage will be over.In there fun and kicks will be judged by the righteous. Meaning (us) Christians.

You are looking forward to that, aren't you?
 
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Mling

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I like it when someone is Gods conduit for the world to see. Glory be to God for in the end everyone shall bow there knee in acknowledgment of he that made thy and there will be great disappointment for the worlds rampage will be over.In there fun and kicks will be judged by the righteous. Meaning (us) Christians.

mmmhmm, mmmhmmm.

So, now, on Judgement Day, it won't be God judging anymore? It'll be you?

Let's add another check under the "claiming equality with God" column.
 
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Mling

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I've worked a fair amount with autistic kids. I had one who had this complex "Master" fantasy. When he was upset, he used to say, "When my Master comes, he's going to wipe out this whole dump!"

And the boy would be standing right next to him and laughing, I'm sure.
 
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Maren

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Here ya go David:

Originally Posted by BigBadWlf
"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did hateful things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.”
Ezekiel 16: 49-50
Polycarp_fan said:
"They were haughty AND did hateful things before me."

Sounds like the Gay Agenda to me. Not only the overfed and unconcerned assertion,

True, the knock about gays is typically that they are too self-conscious to let themselves be fat. On the contrary, it is Christians that are typically often generalized as being overfed.

Polycarp_fan said:
but not helping the poor and needy part as well.

Sorry, I've not seen you back this assertion up; at least other than some lame claim about how there are homeless in San Francisco (as if that makes it so much different than any other large American city). In fact, why do we have such a problem in a country where over 70% of the people claim to be Christian?

And before your bring up the studies that state conservatives give more to charity you need to consider that much of the difference in giving is to churches -- conservatives give far more money to their church. And of that money that goes to churches, most of it does not ever go to the poor. Rather, 90+% of that typically is budgeted to buying a fancy church with expensive objects in it, buying expensive organs and sound systems, paying the clergies salary, etc.

Beyond that, however, liberal does not mean homosexual. In fact, there are a large number of conservative homosexuals (Log Cabin Republicans, anyone?). I'd be interested in seeing actual numbers about homosexuals donations to charity. From those that I know, I expect it would be quite similar in both money and time donated.

Polycarp_fan said:
Keep on reading in Ezekiel, and you will get to the graphic sexual parts that bear a strinking resemblence to gay (and porn) erotica.

Except that part of Ezekiel isn't talking about Sodom, rather it is talking about the Jews. Not only that, to claim that this is somehow so similar to gay porn you have to ignore the fact that there is a far larger heterosexual porn market that is also just like Ezekiel.

I find it interesting that Texas, which takes pride in being one of the more Christian states, also is one where you more openly see strip shows, adult "toy" stores, and 24-hour XXX theaters/DVD porn rental as you travel the freeways in plain view for all families to see. And these places all appear to be aimed at heterosexuals.

Polycarp_fan said:
Those Hebrews Prophets are amazing.

No, it takes little imagination to take vague claims about being haughty, erotica, and not caring for the poor and project it onto people you don't like. In fact, as I've shown, it would be easy to project it onto many people who claim to be Christian. In fact, you've shown that the projections don't even have to be factual, rather you can just imagine that the group you don't like act that way without requiring any proof or justification.

Polycarp_fan said:
Haughty for example. Quite the translation:

(hô
prime.gif
t
emacr.gif
)
adj. haugh·ti·er, haugh·ti·est Scornfully and condescendingly proud. See Synonyms at proud.

[From Middle English haut, from Old French haut, halt, alteration (influenced by Frankish h
omacr.gif
h
, high) of Latin altus, high; see al-2 in Indo-European roots.]
haugh
prime.gif
ti·ly
adv.
haugh
prime.gif
ti·ness
n.


proud

(proud)
adj. proud·er, proud·est 1. Feeling pleasurable satisfaction over an act, possession, quality, or relationship by which one measures one's stature or self-worth: proud of one's child; proud to serve one's country.
2. Occasioning or being a reason for pride: "On January 1, 1900, Americans and Europeans greeted the twentieth century in the proud and certain belief that the next hundred years would make all things possible" W. Bruce Lincoln.
3. Feeling or showing justifiable self-respect.
4. Filled with or showing excessive self-esteem.
5. Of great dignity; honored: a proud name.
6. Majestic; magnificent: proud alpine peaks.
7. Spirited. Used of an animal: proud steeds.

And I think we've been through this, in fact you have admitted in other threads that one of your faults is haughtiness -- which you appear to prove again here. I think perhaps you should think of taking Christ's advice in Matthew 7 here and remove the plank from your own eye before attempting to remove the speck of sawdust from other people's eyes. Instead, as the verses before that read, I should think you may need to fear being judged the way you judge others.
 
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Polycarp_fan

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True, the knock about gays is typically that they are too self-conscious to let themselves be fat. On the contrary, it is Christians that are typically often generalized as being overfed.

There are many ways to be overfed. The anti-Christian left takes great pride in supporting homosexals. Even going so far as to support their move into Christian Churches. Talk about hypocrites.

Sorry, I've not seen you back this assertion up; at least other than some lame claim about how there are homeless in San Francisco (as if that makes it so much different than any other large American city).

It is a claim with support. Spin all you want to. You just don't see GLBT's pushing for Evangelicals to lead the way.

In fact, why do we have such a problem in a country where over 70% of the people claim to be Christian?

have you ever read the New testament? Have you ever sperated wheat from the chaff? Lot's of chaff and only a tiny handful of seeds.

And before your bring up the studies that state conservatives give more to charity you need to consider that much of the difference in giving is to churches -- conservatives give far more money to their church. And of that money that goes to churches, most of it does not ever go to the poor. Rather, 90+% of that typically is budgeted to buying a fancy church with expensive objects in it, buying expensive organs and sound systems, paying the clergies salary, etc.

I can smell the BS through my computer screen. You live in la-la land pal.
Beyond that, however, liberal does not mean homosexual.

Bzzzzzz. Wrong answer. Wanna try again?

In fact, there are a large number of conservative homosexuals (Log Cabin Republicans, anyone?).

A cat can bark, but it doesn't make a cat a dog. Conservative homosexuals would be the ones using condoms.

I'd be interested in seeing actual numbers about homosexuals donations to charity. From those that I know, I expect it would be quite similar in both money and time donated.

Seeing how badly GLBT's want to mimick Christians of late, I'll bet the numbers are up. But, I'll also bet that they probaly give to gay causes.

Except that part of Ezekiel isn't talking about Sodom, rather it is talking about the Jews.

Exactly. Jews acting like Sodomites. Believers are not to do as Sodomites do.

Not only that, to claim that this is somehow so similar to gay porn you have to ignore the fact that there is a far larger heterosexual porn market that is also just like Ezekiel.

I don't ignore that for an instance. AND, like gay sex, Christians should not engage in porn either. UNLESSSSS of course they were born with a porn orientation. I'm sure that is coming next.

I find it interesting that Texas, which takes pride in being one of the more Christian states, also is one where you more openly see strip shows, adult "toy" stores, and 24-hour XXX theaters/DVD porn rental as you travel the freeways in plain view for all families to see. And these places all appear to be aimed at heterosexuals.

Hmm, care to do a study of size and frequecy? Say, San Francisco versus TEXAS for example? You know, in Florida, there are porn shops next to Pawn Shops next to Mega Churches.

I have yet to see a Porn Pride parade though. Unless MTV and HBO counts.

No, it takes little imagination to take vague claims about being haughty, erotica, and not caring for the poor and project it onto people you don't like.

You have no proof of that. I'm just calling it like I see it. And in the world of GLBT's you see a lot of erotica parading down the street.

In fact, as I've shown, it would be easy to project it onto many people who claim to be Christian.

Bing! Second correct response. Jesus also taught that there would lot's of people "claiming" to be believers. And guess what we are to do about that?

In fact, you've shown that the projections don't even have to be factual, rather you can just imagine that the group you don't like act that way without requiring any proof or justification.

Bzzz. Wrong again. The OP is about a real lesbian pair suing Christians that would not work at their "marriage." But, as we can see, the Lesbians would not tolerate diversity for Christians.

And I think we've been through this, in fact you have admitted in other threads that one of your faults is haughtiness -- which you appear to prove again here.

Confidence is not haughtiness. You are on error response #3. I admitted it once or twice. But it is not appropriate here and now.

I think perhaps you should think of taking Christ's advice in Matthew 7 here and remove the plank from your own eye before attempting to remove the speck of sawdust from other people's eyes. Instead, as the verses before that read, I should think you may need to fear being judged the way you judge others.

I have no plank or speck in my eye about Jesus and his teaching on marriage. I know what is right and what is wrong and what is violated and what is not. There is no such thing as same-gender marriage according to Jesus. Please let's debate that somewhere else. No spin "pleeeeease?"

Are you aware of the OP?
 
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Maren

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There are many ways to be overfed. The anti-Christian left takes great pride in supporting homosexals. Even going so far as to support their move into Christian Churches. Talk about hypocrites.

Wow, talk about moving the goalposts. You tried using Ezekiel's claim that Sodom was overfed and unconcerned with the poor and I show where you were scapegoating gays while ignoring the fact that it is a problem in American in general. Rather than rebutting my statements, showing me that I'm wrong in my claims, instead you use it to bash other Christians that don't believe the same things you do and try to twist Ezekiel's clear meaning about being "overfed".

It is a claim with support. Spin all you want to. You just don't see GLBT's pushing for Evangelicals to lead the way.

Yes, just like I don't see Jews pushing for Evangelicals to lead the way, or how I don't see Blacks pushing for Neo-Nazis to lead the way. So, where is the support for your claims?

have you ever read the New testament?

Yes, I have.

Have you ever sperated wheat from the chaff? Lot's of chaff and only a tiny handful of seeds.

In fact, he clearly instructs in these parables that it is not your job to separate the wheat from the tares, your job is merely to sow the seed and to love your neighbor.

I can smell the BS through my computer screen. You live in la-la land pal.

Bzzzzzz. Wrong answer. Wanna try again?

[sarcasm]I'm overwhelmed by your evidence.[/sarcasm] If you wish to provide evidence that gays donate less than others to the poor, I'd be happy to examine it. In the meantime, your petty insults only reinforce that you cannot support your claims.

A cat can bark, but it doesn't make a cat a dog. Conservative homosexuals would be the ones using condoms.

False. Seriously, there are some people on these boards that, while they support homosexual rights, are quite conservative according how most conservatives in the US attempt to define it -- that government should be limited and small. Again, I gave you an example of conservative gays and all I get out of you is a lame putdown -- again, a sign in debates that you can't argue the facts so you attempt to ridicule those who do post facts.


Seeing how badly GLBT's want to mimick Christians of late, I'll bet the numbers are up. But, I'll also bet that they probaly give to gay causes.

:sigh: You do realize, of course, that probably around 90% of all homosexuals today were raised in a home that was at least nominally Christian. Beyond that, gays tend to know what it is like to be discriminated against and persecuted. Many of them were kicked out of "good" Christian homes (by your definition of good Christian) for being gay. As such, the gays I know are more likely to be empathetic to the poor and downtrodden.

As for giving to gay organizations, why shouldn't they? I'm guessing you have donated money to an anti-gay organization, perhaps even MassResistance (seeing as how often you have attempted to use their propoganda). So what is the difference?

Exactly. Jews acting like Sodomites. Believers are not to do as Sodomites do.

Which goes back to what Ezekiel called the sins of Sodom:
Ezekiel 16:49-50 said:
Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

So is is not "exactly", behaving like a harlot is not what the sin of Sodom was.

I don't ignore that for an instance. AND, like gay sex, Christians should not engage in porn either. UNLESSSSS of course they were born with a porn orientation. I'm sure that is coming next.

Yet you tried claiming it was gays and the evil of porn, completely ignoring the majority of porn is heterosexual. In fact, what even tapes of lesbian sex are aimed at heterosexuals rather than lesbians. As such, you can't single out gay porn and claim it proves they are like Sodom, it merely reinforces they way you are picking and choosing to support a presupposition.


Hmm, care to do a study of size and frequecy? Say, San Francisco versus TEXAS for example? You know, in Florida, there are porn shops next to Pawn Shops next to Mega Churches.

Yes, and not far from where I live there is an adult toy/video shop right next to a family ice skating rink and a large family entertainment center, there is a Methodist hospital across the street. Coming down the street closer to where I live there is another adult toy store. A block from that toy store, with one of the large 24 screen theaters belonging to one of the large national theater chains in-between, there is a strip club. Going the other way, you have a fairly nice mall. And this is in a nice suburb outside of the city limits where it is largely Republican Christians. Gays have nothing on heterosexuals.

I have yet to see a Porn Pride parade though. Unless MTV and HBO counts.

I've heard they have those in Vegas in one of the Casinos -- it is about a week long if I understand right. They even have their own award shows to recognize the best at it.


You have no proof of that. I'm just calling it like I see it. And in the world of GLBT's you see a lot of erotica parading down the street.

Proof? The proof is in your own words. How ironic, I claim you have offered zero evidence, merely unsubstantiated opinion and you ask for proof? My proof is every post you've written in this thread but, in particular, in the post I responded to.


Bing! Second correct response. Jesus also taught that there would lot's of people "claiming" to be believers. And guess what we are to do about that?

Nothing more than to keep them out of your own church. Again, Christ clearly stated they would be separated at judgment, that until then believers were merely to sow seeds and let the weeds and tares grow together.

Bzzz. Wrong again. The OP is about a real lesbian pair suing Christians that would not work at their "marriage." But, as we can see, the Lesbians would not tolerate diversity for Christians.

False, two lesbians sued a business that happened to be owned by Christians for not following the law. If these Christians had refused service to a handicapped couple would you still support them? Regardless of your personal feelings about the difference, it is the same law protecting both. These laws were created to stop a form of segregation, where people were discriminated against by businesses simply because of who they are. Now, you can argue that they aren't necessary and write your government representatives telling them to repeal these laws but it doesn't change the fact that the Christian business owners went against local law.

Confidence is not haughtiness. You are on error response #3. I admitted it once or twice. But it is not appropriate here and now.

Why is it not appropriate here? You're post if filled with haughtiness, much like the haughtiness of the Pharisees. You clearly show here that you are the one who knows the truth and those that disagree with you are wrong and not Christian. In fact, you belittle me because I dare to call you on some of what you claimed.

I have no plank or speck in my eye about Jesus and his teaching on marriage. I know what is right and what is wrong and what is violated and what is not. There is no such thing as same-gender marriage according to Jesus. Please let's debate that somewhere else. No spin "pleeeeease?"

Are you aware of the OP?

And I think you've proven you do have a plank. You act as if every gay is some in your face, porn addicted, drag queen, self-absorbed, haughty, Pagan, extreme liberal, Christian-hating caricature. When some of us try to call you on this caricature you try to create and prove to you that very few gays actually fit that profile, you try ridicule and misdirection to hide the fact that you provide absolutely no evidence of how your caricature represents any gays, much less the majority.
 
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David Brider

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Care to respond to the rest of my post? It is so typical of the spin tactic what you people do. I just compared apples to apples. And responded to the Ezekiel offering. He nails the lascvious crowd to a tee.

What spin tactic? I just asked you an honest question. Care to answer it?

David.
 
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