Who is Responsible?

[Chesterton]

How can any of God's plans stand if they are so easily thwarted?

Distinguish between "plan" and "will". God's plans include planning for creating little gods and giving them the dignity and freedom of being able to thwart His will. His will can be thwarted because he planned for that.

 

[Davian]

Distinguish between "plan" and "will". God's plans include planning for creating little gods and giving them the dignity and freedom of being able to thwart His will. His will can be thwarted because he planned for that.

Anything he didn't plan for? No?

 

[SteveB28]

Again, I believe if he truly wishes for something to happen, it will.

But I think it a rare scenario that he -forces- something to happen.
He may set you up for something good, but it is still up to you to make the correct choices to get to that point. If you let selfish desire influence your decisions, then whatever God may have had planned for you will not come to fruition.

How would you know either way?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

what about...

5. Supernatural agency thats not 'divine' but instead malevolent or at least undesirable.
"Diabolical agency", I suppose.

"The devil made me do it."

 

[DeepWater]

choice <> consequence
sowing <> reaping

there is also God who interacts within humanity.
there is also the Devil who interacts within humanity.

 

[Paradoxum]

If there is no plan or purpose then how can we explain the order that we find in the universe that we did not put there ourselves?

Order is 'stuff' working by laws. Laws are the way things effect and are affected by each other. It doesn't need a wider plan.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... His will can be thwarted because he planned for that.

Don't you see the paradox here? If he planned for it, it must have been His will that His will could be thwarted; so by thwarting His will you'd be acting in accordance with His will

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

If there is no plan or purpose then how can we explain the order that we find in the universe that we did not put there ourselves?

We use science.

 

[Chriliman]

I think science is great, but it can only point us to what's true, we still have to accept the truth on an individual level.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

He may set you up for something good, but it is still up to you to make the correct choices to get to that point. If you let selfish desire influence your decisions, then whatever God may have had planned for you will not come to fruition.

How would you distinguish between that and God setting you up for something bad in anticipation of your selfish choices making it good? Or God not setting up anything for you and just letting you get on with it?

This kind of vacuous speculation can be used to 'explain' anything but goes nowhere and tells us nothing.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I think science is great, but it can only point us to what's true, we still have to accept the truth on an individual level.

Yes, it's unfortunate that some people have difficulty or even refuse to accept what is demonstrably true.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Not necessarily in just a superficial causal way. I'm getting more at ultimate responsibility. What should be praised or blamed for the various events, good and bad, that happen in our lives?

In general, I'ld say natural causes.

Those include about anything from human agency to simple natural phenomena (which are blind forces)

I've yet to see any non-natural cause for anything.

 

[DogmaHunter]

How does this play out in your relationships? When someone treats you unjustly do you seek justice?

For me, that depends entirely on context.
In some cases I will consider it not worth the energy to respond in any way.
In other cases I might seek justice.
In even other cases I might seek revenge.

There's no black and white there. Not all "unjust treatments" are of the same degree and consequence.

Or do you simply chalk it up to fate and accept fate? Do you attempt to resist fate or fight against fate when things aren't turning out in your favor?

You can't fight "fate" (fate here meaning: outcomes that are out of anyones control, like lightning hitting your house and setting it on fire).

While it can be hard to not respond emotionally to it, ultimately it's a waste of energy. The only path is the path forward, and you can only take with you what you have at that moment in time. If "fate" destroys certain things, you have 2 choices (matter of speaking)... You can either go sit in a corner and feel sorry for yourself, or you can get your act together and move on.

The best you can do is to try and not tempt "fate". For example, if you find yourself in an open field during a storm, don't go seek shelter near the only large tree in that field...

 

[DogmaHunter]

If there is no plan or purpose then how can we explain the order that we find in the universe that we did not put there ourselves?

As another poster already stated.... Order is a label imposed on a system by humans. It's not a thing that exists ouside of our brains.

Also, I don't see why there must be a "plan or purpose" in order for patterns to exist in the universe..

 

[DogmaHunter]

I think science is great, but it can only point us to what's true

Actually, strictly speaking, science can only point out what is wrong.

It can't really point out what is true. At best, it can point out what is most likely true.

, we still have to accept the truth on an individual level.

Obviously. I can't borrow Einstein's brain to do any thinking with. I'll have to use my own brain.

 

[Chriliman]

As another poster already stated.... Order is a label imposed on a system by humans. It's not a thing that exists ouside of our brains.

Are you 100% certain about that?

Also, I don't see why there must be a "plan or purpose" in order for patterns to exist in the universe..

Because patterns that exist that we did not put in place suggest intelligence, this is common sense. It takes an extra unnecessary leap to say a pattern does not come from intelligence.

What is SETI searching for if not recognizable patterns in signals that suggest intelligent life?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Are you 100% certain about that?

As certain as can be.

Because patterns that exist that we did not put in place suggest intelligence, this is common sense

Is it, really?

Is there an "intelligent" factory somewhere producing sand ripples and trillions of snowflakes? Or are these patterns that "just happen" by blind natural forces working on physical matter?

It takes an extra unnecessary leap to say a pattern does not come from intelligence.

/facepalm

Positing an unsupported "intelligent entity" as the only cause for patterns is not? For crying out loud....

ps: it's self-contradictory as well, because that "intelligent entity" would exist in patterns itself.

What is SETI searching for if not recognizable patterns in signals that suggest intelligent life?

Unnatural patterns.

 

[Chriliman]

As certain as can be.



Is it, really?

View attachment 177186

View attachment 177187

Is there an "intelligent" factory somewhere producing sand ripples and trillions of snowflakes? Or are these patterns that "just happen" by blind natural forces working on physical matter?

I understand you view these patterns as natural, but what I'm saying is that there is intelligence behind how and why nature behaves the way it does. These patterns that we see in nature is evidence of this intelligence. You don't view it that way and that's your position, but it doesn't mean your position is true.

Let the evidence point to what's true.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I understand you view these patterns as natural, but what I'm saying is that there is intelligence behind how and why nature behaves the way it does. These patterns that we see in nature is evidence of this intelligence. You don't view it that way and that's your position, but it doesn't mean your position is true.

Let the evidence point to what's true.

Are you saying the fundamental laws of nature are evidence of intelligence? If not, what are you saying?

 

[DogmaHunter]

I understand you view these patterns as natural, but what I'm saying is that there is intelligence behind how and why nature behaves the way it does.

Yes, that is what you keep claiming.
Not once did I see you support such claims though.

These patterns that we see in nature is evidence of this intelligence.

How?
Take sand ripples. How are those evidence of "intelligence".
And what "intelligence"? What about the physical reality of that "intelligence"? Wouldn't that brain consist of an ordered pattern of matter as well?

You don't view it that way and that's your position, but it doesn't mean your position is true.

That's a misrepresentation of the facts.

YOU are the one who's claiming the existence of additional things here.

I see patterns being the result of blind natural forces, like sand ripples.
YOU see those patterns as well and it seems that you don't deny and thus agree that they are the result of the blind forces of nature. As in, the wind / water isn't consiously deciding to form sand ripples. The wind just blows and the water just runs downhill and one of the effects this can have is the formation of sandripples.

But then, YOU are ADDING an additional (unsupported) entity in this phenomena.

I'm not the one doing that. That's you.

Why do you do that? What secret data do you have that prompts you to include this entity? Why is it at all necessary?

It seems to me that sand ripples are perfectly explained by the simple blind forces of nature. Why do you feel the need to add this additional seemingly unnecessary variable?

Let the evidence point to what's true.

Indeed, let's..............................