Universal flood evidence

[SkyWriting]

Since show moving plates by YEC claims cause volcanos, common sense tells me rapid moving plates will cause too much heat, destroying all life, even that on the ark. How much volcanic land is there today?

Over 80% I think.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

It's the 2nd time you mentioned this, what's the difference between a water tight building and a ship, and why is this so important?

Shalom

Ships are built to navigate the sea which requires a certain shape, the ability to travel counter to the wind, and the ability to steer. The ark had no such requirements as it "went on the flood", meaning that it was carried along on the flood waters. This also meant that it didn't have the same structural requirements in regard to strength that a ship requires. It moved in relatively still water meaning it wasn't subject to the stresses that ships have to endure.

I went on a hot air balloon ride once. The balloon travels with the wind and so you feel no wind at all. In fact even while moving at some speed cigarette smoke will hang in the air as if you are inside of a building. The same dynamic applied to the ark and water that carried it along.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

If the ark was higher than the highest mountain animals would not have survived in the Ark.
Climbing With Supplemental Oxygen: By The Numbers
Himalayan Mountaineering – Summit Oxygen
https://mountainhomies.com/why-mountaineers-carry-oxygen-full-explanation/

"Aside from this, great variety is introduced by differences in latitude, elevation, and exposure to the sun. Thus, there exists no single, clearly defined, mountain climate. The most common climatic results of high elevation are those of decreased pressure, reduced oxygen availability, decreased temperature, and increased insolation; the last two combine to produce a typical "hot sun and cold shade" condition. Precipitation is heavier on the windward side of a mountain barrier than on the leeward (orographic precipitation), and on the windward side it increases upward to the zone of maximum precipitation, then decreases again."
https://glossary.ametsoc.org/wiki/Mountain_climate

Why would oxygen levels and temperature drop? The ark was always at sea level throughout the event.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

12 tons of animal waste a day???? 480 tons in the building? At what point does animal waste become toxic? How much does it take to be toxic?

These are open space, Noah's building would be closed space during the 40 days and 40 nights.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2021/05/10/farm-pollution-deaths/
Study: Animal-based foods connected to 15,900 deaths a year - Iowa Capital Dispatch
Air quality–related health damages of food
Preventing Deaths of Farm Workers in Manure Pits (90-103) | NIOSH | CDC

The ark would have been 'fitted out' (a shipbuilding term) with a ventilation system to keep the air fresh. The animals, most of which were very small, would not produce methane rich manure, or very much manure at all, as they would be on maintenance rations *, not production rations. Some would go into hibernation and produce no waste at all. It is also likely that the animals would have been fattened up before boarding the ark. Most animals will overeat if given the opportunity. An animal living on stored fat produces very little manure.

Animals to be slaughtered are taken off feed for a day or two first to reduce the amount of manure that remains in their system. It is within reason that Noah would have done this as well, at least for the larger animals.

Most manures would simply dry up, which could then be burned (the ventilation system would be driven by furnaces whose draft would draw fresh air into the ark**) or left to simply decompose (compost) in the bedding.

The narrative suggests that the requirements of the animals were within the ability of Noah and his family to meet.

* Any deer hunter can attest to this as deer poop on winter maintenance rations of woody browse is dry, light, and odorless compared to their warm weather 'production' rations poop that is wet, heavy, and smelly. Of the dozens of different critters that scurry about in the forest very few leave easily detectable droppings.

** It was gratifying to see the large furnace within the ark in the movie "Noah", starring Russell Crowe. It would have been necessary for heat, draft, and sanitation, as well as cooking.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

To follow up on the need to ventilate the ark. The ark was to be covered with pitch without and within. There can be only one reason for sealing the interior of the ark, that is to prevent illness caused by the 'offgassing' of the wooden structure. Almost all woods give off irritants in the form of gases. This problem was solved by the covering of pitch and the furnace/draft-driven ventilation system.

Wood Allergies and Toxicity | The Wood Database (wood-database.com)

 

[Daniel Marsh]

So what do you propose?

Shalom

Thanks for asking, it is my experience by reviewing arguments against an universal flood shows the weakness of Young Earth Creationism which is history wise a very recent teaching.
The result, it opens those who have questions to ask many questions about Jesus.

Another argument that YEC had not given a good answer to is water pressure and effects on trees.

At at a depth of 29,000 feet with a pressure of 12,000 psi -- more exact 12,558 psi at 29,054 feet.

One must look at Science to see what was possible thus more likely. If water covered the highest mountain in the world the water would be 29,000 feet deep and where plant life and trees were would be at 12,558 Psi. One can clean a rock or drill a hole around 2,000 psi. It takes with water jets about 55,000 psi to cut rocks like using a band saw.

Wood is crushed thus destroyed at 450 psi

Wood Deterioration and Its Prevention by Preservative ... - Page 343
Darrel D. Nicholas

Young Earth Creationism, tries to get around all this by saying mountains shifted higher towards the end of the flood. The big problem with that is the heat generated by the plates would boil all existing life to death including Noah and his crew.

Science and common sense must be used.

Studies have shown if the planet was smooth without mountains, all the existing water would cover the whole planet an inch deep. The error factor puts it just under four inches deep.

Recent resarch in the middle east shows that the the flood was local.

Book with the research is:
Noah's Flood: The New Scientific Discoveries about the Event That Changed History
William Ryan, Author, William Haxby, Illustrator, Walter Pitman, Joint Author

So ask yourself, is it more important to defend a very recent teaching by Young Earth Creationists or to bring those using critical thinking to Jesus?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

related links
Great Flood of 1913 - Wikipedia
The Water Vapor Canopy Theory: Why the Bible (And Science) Says It is False

One thing one needs to do is define terms.

example that relates:

"from dictionary:

"English from the 13th century. From Latin firmāmentum (from firmō (“strengthen”), from firmus (“firm”)), literally "that which strengthens or supports". The term is coined in the Vulgata in imitation of LXX στερέωμα (stereōma, “firm or solid structure”), which in turn translates Hebrew רקיע, strictly speaking a mistranslation, as the original Hebrew term meant "expanse", from the root רקע "to spread out", which in Syriac had acquired the meaning "to make firm or solid". "

Wood is crushed at 450 psi

Source of that fact is,
Wood Deterioration and Its Prevention by Preservative ... - Page 343
Darrel D. Nicholas

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The Science I am using has nothing to do with Evolution which I do not believe.

I am using very basic Science. On earth by observation there is more salt water than fresh water. Mixing existing fresh water with existing salt water would not have enough effect on the salt water to make a big difference.

Wood is crushed at 450 psi
Depth 1,040 gives 450.86 psi
highest mountain in the world plus 15 cubits would be 29,000 feet deep in water to sea level.
Feet Of Water to Pounds Per Square Inch | Kyle's Converter

"The olive groves of Masía El Altet are to be found at a distance of 30 kms as the crow flies from the Mediterranean and, at the same time, at an altitude of 850 m(2,788.71 feet) above sea level."

29,000 feet minus 2,789 equals 26,211.
At a depth of 26,211 the psi is 11,362.86

Genesis 7:4

Easy-to-Read Version



4 Seven days from now, I will send much rain on the earth. It will rain for 40 days and 40 nights, and I will wipe everything off the face of the earth. I will destroy everything I made.”

Plants and Trees are living things. And, would be included otherwise Noah would not have taken seeds along.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I am looking at possible good points others would make.

Slow moving “continental drift” and plates is significant to explain the fossils without a worldwide flood.

How large was the whole world in Jesus' time on earth?

Mount Hermon is only 9,232 feet high. "

All one can see from it is where the Jordan River empties into the Sea of Galilee. Clearly, they would not be able to see the New World or what we call the Americas.

"Mount Hermon sits about 60 miles north of the Sea of Galilee on the modern-day borders of Israel, Syria and Lebanon. It rises over 9,000 feet in elevation. Since the Sea of Galilee sits approximately 700 feet below sea level, the top of the mountain is nearly 10,000 feet above the location of this photograph. The Old Testament city of Dan and the New Testament city of Caesarea Philippi sit near the base of the mountain." Rare View of Mount Hermon — Exploring Bible Lands

From the Hebrew Bible, we know that "
In Deuteronomy 3:8-3:9 and Joshua 12:1 and 13:11, Mount Hermon is depicted as the northern boundary of the Amorite kingdom, which following the conquest by Joshua was awarded to the half-tribe of Manasseh east of the Jordan River.[16]

The Book of Chronicles mentions Mount Hermon as a place where Epher, Ishi, Eliel, Azriel, Jeremiah, Hodaviah, and Jahdiel were the heads of their families (1 Chronicles 5:23–24)."Mount Hermon - Wikipedia

Again, they would not be able to see the New World. Native Americans came to the USA about 20,000 years ago. The Flood ocurred after that.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Somewhere between Hawaii and the Philippines near the small island of Guam, far below the surface of the water, sits the Mariana Trench, the deepest spot in the ocean. What’s down there?
HOW DEEP IS THE MARIANA TRENCH?
The Trench sits like a crescent-shaped dent in the floor of the Pacific Ocean, extending over 1500 miles long with an average width around 43 miles and a depth of almost 7 miles (or just under 36,201 feet). At that depth, the weight of all that water above makes the pressure in the Trench around 1000 times higher than it would be in, say, Miami or New York. Floor vents release bubbles of liquid sulfur and carbon dioxide. Temperatures are just above freezing, and everything is drowning in darkness.

For comparison, most ocean life lives above a depth of 660 feet. Nuclear submarines hover around 850 feet below the surface as they travel through the ocean waters. Whales aren’t usually seen below about 8,200 feet. The site of Jack and Rose’s true (albeit fictional) love, the sunken Titanic, can be found at 12,467 feet." The Mariana Trench Is 7 Miles Deep: What’s Down There?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The key to remember for all of us. One's interpretation of Scripture is not equal to Scripture itself in authority.
That would include me too.

Cool Fact, The Spanish Dancer, a type of sea cucumber, hovers at 9,150 feet near the Davidson Seamount off the coast of California. That's 1.7 miles down!

How deep is the ocean?

"In short, the “firmament” is a vast expanse, specifically the atmosphere or sky. The word is found only in the King James Version and other older translations of the Bible. " What was the firmament in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

"
Ancient Israelites “saw” this barrier when they looked up. There were no telescopes, space exploration, or means of testing the atmosphere. They relied on what their senses told them. Even today, looking up at a clear sky in open country, the sky seems to “begin” at the horizons and reaches up far above. Ancient Israelites and others in that part of the world assumed the world was flat, and so it looked like the earth is covered by a dome, and the “blue sky” is the “water above” held back by the raqia. The translation “firmament” (i.e., firm) gets across this idea of a solid structure.

Biblical scholars agree on this understanding of raqia. For some Christians, however, this is troubling. How can the Bible, which is the inspired, revealed word of God, contain such an inaccurate piece of ancient nonsense? Hence, some invest a lot of time and energy to show that the raqia is not solid but more like the atmosphere. Often, the word “expanse” is the preferred translation because it does not necessarily imply something solid.
"
The Firmament of Genesis 1 is Solid but That’s Not the Point - Articles

Look up Cosmetology in The Interpreter's Dictionary Firmament - Wikipedia

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Hebrew רקיע, strictly the original Hebrew term meant "expanse"

"Volcanic eruptions

As with earthquakes, volcanic activity is linked to plate-tectonic processes. Most of the world's active above-sea volcanoes are located near convergent plate boundaries where subduction is occurring, particularly around the Pacific basin. However, much more volcanism -- producing about three quarters of all lava erupted on Earth -- takes place unseen beneath the ocean, mostly along the oceanic spreading centers, such as the Mid-Atlantic Ridge and the East Pacific Rise."
https://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dynamic/t...uptions,particularly around the Pacific basin.

"Plates are thought to float on the partially molten mantle, moving away from oceanic ridges where new plate material is produced and moving past each other or colliding along plate boundaries. Earthquakes and volcanoes are related to this movement.

...

Colliding plates

Where plates come into contact, energy is released. Plates sliding past each other cause friction and heat. Subducting plates melt into the mantle, and diverging plates create new crust material.

Subducting plates, where one tectonic plate is being driven under another, are associated with volcanoes and earthquakes. This activity is focused along the edge of the plate boundary where two plates come into contact, forming regions such as the Pacific Ring of Fire – a chain of earthquake and volcanic activity around the edge of the Pacific Ocean – which generates 75% of the world’s volcanoes and 80% of the world’s earthquakes."

Plate tectonics, volcanoes and earthquakes


Volcanoes reaches 1,200 degrees Celsius. Volcanoes is are from slow moving plates. Picture the problems of fast moving plates.

 

[coffee4u]

I recently looked at Answers in Genesis's evidence for a universal flood. Evidence using fossils and the rock layers. I am still unclear about a few things. Is there anyone here that is familiar with the evidence that could answer a few questions?

Friend, the two things to be aware of in looking at what science says is that all scientists whether they are secular, atheists or christian, all start out with a certain world view and this colours everything they see.
Secondly all of them only have this fallen world, this post flood world to look at. We don't have the pre-flood world to check and we certainly don't have the pre-fall world to check.
Human beings by their very nature may have unseen motivations, deceptions or be deceiving.
All of this adds colour and shades to any outcome from any side. Data that seems to confirm is gathered in and anything that doesn't seem to fit is tossed out, often because of the base assumptions. But if the base is an assumption is unproved and can't ever be proved then everything built upon it isn't proof either, no matter how often people claim it is.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Over 80% I think.

Thank You brother, friend.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Ships are built to navigate the sea which requires a certain shape, the ability to travel counter to the wind, and the ability to steer. The ark had no such requirements as it "went on the flood", meaning that it was carried along on the flood waters. This also meant that it didn't have the same structural requirements in regard to strength that a ship requires. It moved in relatively still water meaning it wasn't subject to the stresses that ships have to endure.

I went on a hot air balloon ride once. The balloon travels with the wind and so you feel no wind at all. In fact even while moving at some speed cigarette smoke will hang in the air as if you are inside of a building. The same dynamic applied to the ark and water that carried it along.

Brother, Friend -- Rainfall 40 days and 40 nights that YEC claims covered the highest mountain by 15 cubics and Volcanic Action, pluse enough heat from the plates moving rapidly which would boil everyone and every living creature on the Ark to death is not "claim water" in any strech of the immagination.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Ships are built to navigate the sea which requires a certain shape, the ability to travel counter to the wind, and the ability to steer. The ark had no such requirements as it "went on the flood", meaning that it was carried along on the flood waters. This also meant that it didn't have the same structural requirements in regard to strength that a ship requires. It moved in relatively still water meaning it wasn't subject to the stresses that ships have to endure.

I went on a hot air balloon ride once. The balloon travels with the wind and so you feel no wind at all. In fact even while moving at some speed cigarette smoke will hang in the air as if you are inside of a building. The same dynamic applied to the ark and water that carried it along.

Genesis 6:13-16
Good News Translation
13 God said to Noah, “I have decided to put an end to all people. I will destroy them completely, because the world is full of their violent deeds. 14 Build a boat for yourself out of good timber; make rooms in it and cover it with tar inside and out. 15 Make it 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. 16 Make a roof[a] for the boat and leave a space of 18 inches between the roof and the sides. Build it with three decks and put a door in the side.

Genesis 6:13-16
King James Version
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.

16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

Genesis 6:13-16
Easy-to-Read Version
13 So God said to Noah, “Everyone has filled the earth with anger and violence. So I will destroy all living things. I will remove them from the earth. 14 Use cypress wood[a] and build a boat for yourself. Make rooms in the boat and cover it with tar inside and out.

15 “This is the size I want you to make the boat: 300 cubits long, 50 cubits[c] wide, and 30 cubits[d] high. 16 Make a window for the boat about 1 cubit[e] below the roof.[f] Put a door in the side of the boat. Make three floors in the boat: a top deck, a middle deck, and a lower deck.

Definition of ark

(Entry 1 of 2) 1a : a boat or ship held to resemble that in which Noah and his family were preserved from the Flood. b : something that affords protection and safety. 2a : the sacred chest representing to the Hebrews the presence of God among them.
Definition of ARK

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Athenaeus, The Deipnosophists, Book 5, Section 203f–204b (2:421–425, Loeb Classical Library No. 208, Harvard University Press, 1987).

Built a boat

 

[Daniel Marsh]

fun video, I have no speakers

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Ships are built to navigate the sea

A fun story you may get a kick out of --- it shows how Satan plans a boat.

Ether 2 from Book of Mormon

The Jaredites prepare for their journey to a promised land—It is a choice land whereon men must serve Christ or be swept off—The Lord talks to the brother of Jared for three hours—The Jaredites build barges—The Lord asks the brother of Jared to propose how the barges will be lighted.

1 And it came to pass that Jared and his brother, and their families, and also the afriends of Jared and his brother and their families, went down into the valley which was northward, (and the name of the valley was bNimrod, being called after the mighty hunter) with their cflocks which they had gathered together, male and female, of every kind.

2 And they did also lay snares and catch afowls of the air; and they did also prepare a vessel, in which they did carry with them the fish of the waters.

3 And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them aswarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, bseeds of every kind.

4 And it came to pass that when they had come down into the valley of Nimrod the Lord came down and talked with the brother of Jared; and he was in a acloud, and the brother of Jared saw him not.

5 And it came to pass that the Lord commanded them that they should ago forth into the wilderness, yea, into that quarter where there never had man been. And it came to pass that the Lord did go before them, and did talk with them as he stood in a bcloud, and gave cdirections whither they should travel.

6 And it came to pass that they did travel in the wilderness, and did abuild bbarges, in which they did cross many waters, being directed continually by the hand of the Lord.

7 And the Lord would not suffer that they should stop beyond the sea in the wilderness, but he would that they should come forth even unto the aland of promise, which was choice above all other lands, which the Lord God had bpreserved for a righteous people.

8 And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should aserve him, the true and only God, or they should be bswept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them.

9 And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be aswept off when the fulness of his bwrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are cripened in iniquity.

10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be aswept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the bfulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are cswept off.

11 And this cometh unto you, O ye aGentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the bwrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.

12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be afree from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but bserve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.

13 And now I proceed with my record; for behold, it came to pass that the Lord did bring Jared and his brethren forth even to that great sea which divideth the lands. And as they came to the sea they pitched their tents; and they called the name of the place aMoriancumer; and they dwelt in btents, and dwelt in tents upon the seashore for the space of four years.

14 And it came to pass at the end of four years that the Lord came again unto the brother of Jared, and stood in a cloud and atalked with him. And for the space of three hours did the Lord talk with the brother of Jared, and bchastened him because he remembered not to ccall upon the name of the Lord.

15 And the brother of Jared repented of the evil which he had done, and did call upon the name of the Lord for his brethren who were with him. And the Lord said unto him: I will forgive thee and thy brethren of their sins; but thou shalt not sin any more, for ye shall remember that my aSpirit will not always bstrive with man; wherefore, if ye will sin until ye are fully ripe ye shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And these are my cthoughts upon the land which I shall give you for your inheritance; for it shall be a land dchoice above all other lands.

16 And the Lord said: Go to work and build, after the manner of abarges which ye have hitherto built. And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did go to work, and also his brethren, and built barges after the manner which they had built, according to the binstructions of the Lord. And they were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water.

17 And they were built after a manner that they were exceedingly atight, even that they would hold water like unto a dish; and the bottom thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the sides thereof were tight like unto a dish; and the ends thereof were peaked; and the top thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the length thereof was the length of a tree; and the door thereof, when it was shut, was tight like unto a dish.

18 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, I have performed the work which thou hast commanded me, and I have made the barges according as thou hast directed me.

19 And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish.

20 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood.

21 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did so, according as the Lord had commanded.

22 And he cried again unto the Lord saying: O Lord, behold I have done even as thou hast commanded me; and I have prepared the vessels for my people, and behold there is no light in them. Behold, O Lord, wilt thou suffer that we shall cross this great water in darkness?

23 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels? For behold, ye cannot have awindows, for they will be dashed in pieces; neither shall ye take fire with you, for ye shall not go by the light of fire.

24 For behold, ye shall be as a awhale in the midst of the sea; for the mountain waves shall dash upon you. Nevertheless, I will bring you up again out of the depths of the sea; for the bwinds have gone forth cout of my mouth, and also the drains and the floods have I sent forth.

25 And behold, I prepare you against these things; for ye cannot cross this great deep save I prepare you against the waves of the sea, and the winds which have gone forth, and the floods which shall come. Therefore what will ye that I should prepare for you that ye may have light when ye are swallowed up in the depths of the sea?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Ships are built to navigate the sea which requires a certain shape, the ability to travel counter to the wind, and the ability to steer. The ark had no such requirements as it "went on the flood", meaning that it was carried along on the flood waters. This also meant that it didn't have the same structural requirements in regard to strength that a ship requires. It moved in relatively still water meaning it wasn't subject to the stresses that ships have to endure.

I went on a hot air balloon ride once. The balloon travels with the wind and so you feel no wind at all. In fact even while moving at some speed cigarette smoke will hang in the air as if you are inside of a building. The same dynamic applied to the ark and water that carried it along.

No I am not a latter day saint aka mormon. See how many bad or funny ideas you see in the chapter I posted.