Transgression of the law vs sinful nature

[endofdayz]

I've been debating a few "we're under the law" people lately and one of the things that's clearly misunderstood is what trangression of the law is.

There's sinful acts which we wrestle with. This is our sinful nature. Paul talks about how we want to follow our mind in Christ but we wrestle against are sinful nature.

TheBible also says, when you're born again, you have died with Christ yet I live but it's not I who live but Christ that lives in me.

This is why we're not under the law. You're supposed to be dead in Christ so there's nobody alive to be under the law. You're now under Grace because Christ followed and fulfilled the law that we couldn't.

Hebrews 7 tells us the law has changed because we have a High Priest from the Tribe of Judah.

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

The Bible also says the law was our schoolmaster until faith(Jesus Christ) came and once faith came we're no longer under the schoolmaster.

Again, this goes to the misunderstanding of trangression of the law. If you're under the law, you're trangressing the law. This is because you can't perfectly follow the law or the commandments of God because of the carnal mind and our sinful nature. This is why we're Born Again and we crucify the flesh.

Now, what is trangression of the law?

Trangression of the law is living outside of God's commandments. Because of our carnal minds and sinful nature we're always breaking God's commandments.

This goes back to Adam. Look at Genesis 3. When Adam, Eve and the serpent were punished, Adam was the only one who was told he didn't obey God's commandment. This is why sin came through Adam and Jesus is the second Adam born of the woman's seed.

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

So sin came through Adam because he didn't follow God's commandment. This is the trangression of the law.

When you're born again, you can't trangress the law because you're under Grace. A seed is born in you which is the righteousness of Christ who perfectly followed God's commandments. Our sinful nature remains and keeps us from following God's commandments perfectly so we're under God's Grace through Christ.

1 John 3 tells us this:

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

THANK YOU FOR GOD'S GRACE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST!

When it says, he cannot sin, it doesn't mean you don't still have a sinful nature. But you crucify the flesh when you're born again.

This means you can't trangress the law if you're born of God. This is because it's not about "you" it's about the seed within you when you're Born Again. This seed is the righteousness of Christ and "you" can't live outside of God's commandments because you're dead in Christ yet you live but it's Christ that lives within you.

Is this a license to sin? Paul knew this line of thinking was coming and he said,"God forbid."

First, only God knows the heart so only God knows who's truly Born Again and who's seed remaineth in them.

Secondly, when we're Born Again, we have the mind of Christ and the Holy Spirit and that makes it hard if not impossible to live comfortably in the sinful nature.

So if you're under the law then you're sinning not because of a particular sinful act but because you're operating outside of God's commandments. This is because "you" are supposed to be dead in Christ so there's nobody alive to be under the law. You're under Grace because Christ perfectly followed God's commandments and fulfilled the law and you're covered by what He did on the Cross not by your flesh being under the law which you can't follow perfectly or fulfill.

 

[HTacianas]

I've been debating a few "we're under the law" people lately and one of the things that's clearly misunderstood is what trangression of the law is.

There's sinful acts which we wrestle with. This is our sinful nature. Paul talks about how we want to follow our mind in Christ but we wrestle against are sinful nature.

TheBible also says, when you're born again, you have died with Christ yet I live but it's not I who live but Christ that lives in me.

This is why we're not under the law. You're supposed to be dead in Christ so there's nobody alive to be under the law. You're now under Grace because Christ followed and fulfilled the law that we couldn't.

Hebrews 7 tells us the law has changed because we have a High Priest from the Tribe of Judah.

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

The Bible also says the law was our schoolmaster until faith(Jesus Christ) came and once faith came we're no longer under the schoolmaster.

Again, this goes to the misunderstanding of trangression of the law. If you're under the law, you're trangressing the law. This is because you can't perfectly follow the law or the commandments of God because of the carnal mind and our sinful nature. This is why we're Born Again and we crucify the flesh.

Now, what is trangression of the law?

Trangression of the law is living outside of God's commandments. Because of our carnal minds and sinful nature we're always breaking God's commandments.

This goes back to Adam. Look at Genesis 3. When Adam, Eve and the serpent were punished, Adam was the only one who was told he didn't obey God's commandment. This is why sin came through Adam and Jesus is the second Adam born of the woman's seed.

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

So sin came through Adam because he didn't follow God's commandment. This is the trangression of the law.

When you're born again, you can't trangress the law because you're under Grace. A seed is born in you which is the righteousness of Christ who perfectly followed God's commandments. Our sinful nature remains and keeps us from following God's commandments perfectly so we're under God's Grace through Christ.

1 John 3 tells us this:

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

THANK YOU FOR GOD'S GRACE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST!

When it says, he cannot sin, it doesn't mean you don't still have a sinful nature. But you crucify the flesh when you're born again.

This means you can't trangress the law if you're born of God. This is because it's not about "you" it's about the seed within you when you're Born Again. This seed is the righteousness of Christ and "you" can't live outside of God's commandments because you're dead in Christ yet you live but it's Christ that lives within you.

Is this a license to sin? Paul knew this line of thinking was coming and he said,"God forbid."

First, only God knows the heart so only God knows who's truly Born Again and who's seed remaineth in them.

Secondly, when we're Born Again, we have the mind of Christ and the Holy Spirit and that makes it hard if not impossible to live comfortably in the sinful nature.

So if you're under the law then you're sinning not because of a particular sinful act but because you're operating outside of God's commandments. This is because "you" are supposed to be dead in Christ so there's nobody alive to be under the law. You're under Grace because Christ perfectly followed God's commandments and fulfilled the law and you're covered by what He did on the Cross not by your flesh being under the law which you can't follow perfectly or fulfill.

So what becomes of someone who transgresses the law?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I've been debating a few "we're under the law" people lately and one of the things that's clearly misunderstood is what trangression of the law is.

There's sinful acts which we wrestle with. This is our sinful nature. Paul talks about how we want to follow our mind in Christ but we wrestle against are sinful nature.

TheBible also says, when you're born again, you have died with Christ yet I live but it's not I who live but Christ that lives in me.

This is why we're not under the law. You're supposed to be dead in Christ so there's nobody alive to be under the law. You're now under Grace because Christ followed and fulfilled the law that we couldn't.

Hebrews 7 tells us the law has changed because we have a High Priest from the Tribe of Judah.

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

The Bible also says the law was our schoolmaster until faith(Jesus Christ) came and once faith came we're no longer under the schoolmaster.

Again, this goes to the misunderstanding of trangression of the law. If you're under the law, you're trangressing the law. This is because you can't perfectly follow the law or the commandments of God because of the carnal mind and our sinful nature. This is why we're Born Again and we crucify the flesh.

Now, what is trangression of the law?

Trangression of the law is living outside of God's commandments. Because of our carnal minds and sinful nature we're always breaking God's commandments.

This goes back to Adam. Look at Genesis 3. When Adam, Eve and the serpent were punished, Adam was the only one who was told he didn't obey God's commandment. This is why sin came through Adam and Jesus is the second Adam born of the woman's seed.

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

So sin came through Adam because he didn't follow God's commandment. This is the trangression of the law.

When you're born again, you can't trangress the law because you're under Grace. A seed is born in you which is the righteousness of Christ who perfectly followed God's commandments. Our sinful nature remains and keeps us from following God's commandments perfectly so we're under God's Grace through Christ.

1 John 3 tells us this:

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This means you can't trangress the law if you're born of God. This is because it's not about "you" it's about the seed within you when you're Born Again. This seed is the righteousness of Christ and "you" can't live outside of God's commandments because you're dead in Christ yet you live but it's Christ that lives within you.

Is this a license to sin? Paul knew this line of thinking was coming and he said,"God forbid."

So if you're under the law then you're sinning not because of a particular sinful act but because you're operating outside of God's commandments. This is because "you" are supposed to be dead in Christ so there's nobody alive to be under the law. You're under Grace because Christ perfectly followed God's commandments and fulfilled the law and you're covered by what He did on the Cross not by your flesh being under the law which you can't follow perfectly or fulfill.

All sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. The wages of sin is death...the curse of the law. HE became a curse for us. If there is no law then no sin and no need for grace.

 

[Soyeong]

I've been debating a few "we're under the law" people lately and one of the things that's clearly misunderstood is what trangression of the law is.

Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law other than the Law of God, such as works of the law, and the law of sin, so it is important to correctly identify which law he was referring to us as not being under. For example, in Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works while he said in Romans 3:31 that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-11. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, in Galatians 3:1-2, it denies that works of the law are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore the phrase "works of the law" does not refer to obedience to anything that God has commanded.

In Deuteronomy 28:15-68, it describes the curse for not relying on the Book of of the Law, so in regard to Galatians 3:10-12, those who instead rely on works of the law come under that curse. Furthermore, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are relying on the Book of the Law, while no one is justified before God by works of the law because they were not commanded by God and are thus not of faith in Him. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Law of God, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy, so to rely on what God has instructed is to rely on God, while to deny that the Law of God is of faith rather than works of the law is to deny the faithfulness of God. It is contradictory for someone to think that we should rely on God, but should not rely on what He has instructed.

In regard to the law of sin, in Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life with the law of sin and death. In Romans 7, Paul said that the Law of God is good and he delighted in obeying it, but that the law of sin was waging war against the law of his mind and making him captive to the law of sin that dwells in his members, which was causing sin to increase by causing him not to do the good of obeying the Law of God that he wanted to do.

Verses that are interpreted as referring to the Law of God should make sense for it to be something that Paul delighted in doing (Romans 7:22). For example, in Romans 5:20, Paul spoke about a law that was causing sin to increase, which would be absurd for that to be a law that Paul delighted in, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. Likewise, in Romans 7:5, Paul spoke about a law that stirred up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death. In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we aren't under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us (Romans 7:12), but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. Furthermore, in Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and the Law of God is how we know what sin is (Romans 3:20), so we are still under it and are still obligated to obey it, but are not under the law of sin. In addition, everything else in Romans 6 speaks in favor of obedience to God and against sin, such as in Romans 6:19-22, where we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so obedience to the Law of God is the content of His gift of eternal life, which is also why Jesus said in Matthew 19:17 that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments.

In Galatians 2:19, Paul said that though the law he died to the law so that he might live for God, and it wouldn't make sense to think that we need to die to God's instructions for how to live for Him in order to be free to live for Him, but rather we would need to die to a law that was hindering us from doing that, namely the law of sin. In Galatians 5:16-18, Paul said if we walk in the Spirit we will not gratify the desires of the flesh, that the desires of the flesh and of the Spirit are opposed to each other to keep us from doing the good that we want to do, and if we are not under the Spirit we are not under the law. It would make sense to interpret that as referring to us not being under the Law of God that commands against gratifying the desires of the flesh as if the Spirit were opposed to what the Father has commanded, but rather the desires of the flesh causing us not to do the good that we want to do is how Paul described his struggle with the law of sin in Romans 7.

If people do not bother to distinguish between which law Paul was referring to, then they will end up interpreting him as speaking against obeying what God has command and against following the law that Christ spent his ministry teaching by word and by example. So we need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, not the other way around. It should not make sense to interpret a servant of God as speaking against obeying what God has commanded.

There's sinful acts which we wrestle with. This is our sinful nature. Paul talks about how we want to follow our mind in Christ but we wrestle against are sinful nature.

TheBible also says, when you're born again, you have died with Christ yet I live but it's not I who live but Christ that lives in me.

This is why we're not under the law. You're supposed to be dead in Christ so there's nobody alive to be under the law. You're now under Grace because Christ followed and fulfilled the law that we couldn't.

In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to the Law of God are not born again as children of God. Christ lived in obedience to the Law of God, so that is also the way that we live when he is living in us, so that is why we are under the Law of God.

In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted God to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only means of salvation by grace through faith, and this is what it means to be under grace. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him and Israel too, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, which again is salvation by grace through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is living in transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation by obeying it, living in obedience to it nevertheless is intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in in obedience to it.

According to Galatian 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so fulfilling the law refers to something that countless people have done, not to something that Jesus did because we couldn't. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that the Law of God is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as possibility and as a choice, not as something that we can't follow. Furthermore, then are examples of people who followed the Law of God, such as in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14.

Hebrews 7 tells us the law has changed because we have a High Priest from the Tribe of Judah.

God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of His righteous laws are also eternal (Psalms 119:160), and if the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness were to ever change, such as with it becoming righteous to commit adultery or sinful to help the poor, then God's righteousness would not be eternal. So Romans 7:12 could not be referring a change of the law in regard to its content, but rather the context is speaking about a change of the priesthood, which would also require a change of the law in regard to its administration.

The Bible also says the law was our schoolmaster until faith(Jesus Christ) came and once faith came we're no longer under the schoolmaster.

Someone who disregarded everything that their schoolmaster taught them after they graduated would be missing the whole point of a schoolmaster. In Exodus 33:13 and Matthew 7:23, knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which is eternal life through faith (John 17:3), so the law leads us to Jesus because it teaches us how to know him, or in other words how to have a relationship with him, but it does not lead us to him so that we can reject the law that he spent his ministry teaching and go back to living in sin.

Again, this goes to the misunderstanding of trangression of the law. If you're under the law, you're trangressing the law. This is because you can't perfectly follow the law or the commandments of God because of the carnal mind and our sinful nature. This is why we're Born Again and we crucify the flesh.

In Galatians 4:4, Jesus was born under the law, so being under the law does not refer to transgressing it, but rather it refers to being under the obligated to obey it. The Law of God came with instructions for what to do when the people sinned, so there was never a requirement for us to have perfect obedience to it, and even if someone managed to live in perfect obedience to it, then they still would not earn their justification as a wage (Romans 4:4-5), so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law.

 

[fhansen]

I've been debating a few "we're under the law" people lately and one of the things that's clearly misunderstood is what trangression of the law is.

There's sinful acts which we wrestle with. This is our sinful nature. Paul talks about how we want to follow our mind in Christ but we wrestle against are sinful nature.

TheBible also says, when you're born again, you have died with Christ yet I live but it's not I who live but Christ that lives in me.

This is why we're not under the law. You're supposed to be dead in Christ so there's nobody alive to be under the law. You're now under Grace because Christ followed and fulfilled the law that we couldn't.

Hebrews 7 tells us the law has changed because we have a High Priest from the Tribe of Judah.

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

The Bible also says the law was our schoolmaster until faith(Jesus Christ) came and once faith came we're no longer under the schoolmaster.

Again, this goes to the misunderstanding of trangression of the law. If you're under the law, you're trangressing the law. This is because you can't perfectly follow the law or the commandments of God because of the carnal mind and our sinful nature. This is why we're Born Again and we crucify the flesh.

Now, what is trangression of the law?

Trangression of the law is living outside of God's commandments. Because of our carnal minds and sinful nature we're always breaking God's commandments.

This goes back to Adam. Look at Genesis 3. When Adam, Eve and the serpent were punished, Adam was the only one who was told he didn't obey God's commandment. This is why sin came through Adam and Jesus is the second Adam born of the woman's seed.

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

So sin came through Adam because he didn't follow God's commandment. This is the trangression of the law.

When you're born again, you can't trangress the law because you're under Grace. A seed is born in you which is the righteousness of Christ who perfectly followed God's commandments. Our sinful nature remains and keeps us from following God's commandments perfectly so we're under God's Grace through Christ.

1 John 3 tells us this:

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

THANK YOU FOR GOD'S GRACE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST!

When it says, he cannot sin, it doesn't mean you don't still have a sinful nature. But you crucify the flesh when you're born again.

This means you can't trangress the law if you're born of God. This is because it's not about "you" it's about the seed within you when you're Born Again. This seed is the righteousness of Christ and "you" can't live outside of God's commandments because you're dead in Christ yet you live but it's Christ that lives within you.

Is this a license to sin? Paul knew this line of thinking was coming and he said,"God forbid."

First, only God knows the heart so only God knows who's truly Born Again and who's seed remaineth in them.

Secondly, when we're Born Again, we have the mind of Christ and the Holy Spirit and that makes it hard if not impossible to live comfortably in the sinful nature.

So if you're under the law then you're sinning not because of a particular sinful act but because you're operating outside of God's commandments. This is because "you" are supposed to be dead in Christ so there's nobody alive to be under the law. You're under Grace because Christ perfectly followed God's commandments and fulfilled the law and you're covered by what He did on the Cross not by your flesh being under the law which you can't follow perfectly or fulfill.

So which is it? Can believers sin wantonly, or do believers no longer want to sin? Can sin, living by the flesh, still keep us from heaven, or are grave sins, at least, such as those listed in Gal 5 as excluding us from heaven, guaranteed to be overcome in a believer anyway? Do we need to wash our robes, Rev 22:14, or not?

 

[Clare73]

All sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. The wages of sin is death...the curse of the law. HE became a curse for us. If there is no law then no sin and no need for grace.

We are born condemned with the sin of Adam (Romans 5:18),
by nature (with which we are born) objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3).

 

[Lifeafterbook.com]

I've been debating a few "we're under the law" people lately and one of the things that's clearly misunderstood is what trangression of the law is.

There's sinful acts which we wrestle with. This is our sinful nature. Paul talks about how we want to follow our mind in Christ but we wrestle against are sinful nature.

TheBible also says, when you're born again, you have died with Christ yet I live but it's not I who live but Christ that lives in me.

This is why we're not under the law. You're supposed to be dead in Christ so there's nobody alive to be under the law. You're now under Grace because Christ followed and fulfilled the law that we couldn't.

Hebrews 7 tells us the law has changed because we have a High Priest from the Tribe of Judah.

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

The Bible also says the law was our schoolmaster until faith(Jesus Christ) came and once faith came we're no longer under the schoolmaster.

Again, this goes to the misunderstanding of trangression of the law. If you're under the law, you're trangressing the law. This is because you can't perfectly follow the law or the commandments of God because of the carnal mind and our sinful nature. This is why we're Born Again and we crucify the flesh.

Now, what is trangression of the law?

Trangression of the law is living outside of God's commandments. Because of our carnal minds and sinful nature we're always breaking God's commandments.

This goes back to Adam. Look at Genesis 3. When Adam, Eve and the serpent were punished, Adam was the only one who was told he didn't obey God's commandment. This is why sin came through Adam and Jesus is the second Adam born of the woman's seed.

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

So sin came through Adam because he didn't follow God's commandment. This is the trangression of the law.

When you're born again, you can't trangress the law because you're under Grace. A seed is born in you which is the righteousness of Christ who perfectly followed God's commandments. Our sinful nature remains and keeps us from following God's commandments perfectly so we're under God's Grace through Christ.

1 John 3 tells us this:

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

THANK YOU FOR GOD'S GRACE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST!

When it says, he cannot sin, it doesn't mean you don't still have a sinful nature. But you crucify the flesh when you're born again.

This means you can't trangress the law if you're born of God. This is because it's not about "you" it's about the seed within you when you're Born Again. This seed is the righteousness of Christ and "you" can't live outside of God's commandments because you're dead in Christ yet you live but it's Christ that lives within you.

Is this a license to sin? Paul knew this line of thinking was coming and he said,"God forbid."

First, only God knows the heart so only God knows who's truly Born Again and who's seed remaineth in them.

Secondly, when we're Born Again, we have the mind of Christ and the Holy Spirit and that makes it hard if not impossible to live comfortably in the sinful nature.

So if you're under the law then you're sinning not because of a particular sinful act but because you're operating outside of God's commandments. This is because "you" are supposed to be dead in Christ so there's nobody alive to be under the law. You're under Grace because Christ perfectly followed God's commandments and fulfilled the law and you're covered by what He did on the Cross not by your flesh being under the law which you can't follow perfectly or fulfill.

 

[Lifeafterbook.com]

Amen this is a great read, that can help through the day.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

We are born condemned with the sin of Adam (Romans 5:18),
by nature (with which we are born) objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3).

We are not guilty of Adam's sin, we suffer the consequences of it. Through Adam death was brought into the world. That is what Romans 5:18 means. Yeshua brought life.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

I've been debating a few "we're under the law" people lately and one of the things that's clearly misunderstood is what trangression of the law is.

Transgression of the 10 Commandments for an OT only believer means you have to commit an act. Like the woman accused of adultery that Jesus was supposed to stone. For a Christian when you think about breaking one of the commandments you are in sin enough that it should be repented in a private prayer to God.
M't:5:27-28:
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time,
Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you,
That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
A member of the 12 Tribes would read this as being an action has to be completed, while a Christian would read it as refereeing to a thought alone (spirit)
Jas:2:8-11:
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,
ye do well:
But if ye have respect to persons,
ye commit sin,
and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
For whosoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet offend in one point,
he is guilty of all.
For he that said,
Do not commit adultery,
said also,
Do not kill.
Now if thou commit no adultery,
yet if thou kill,
thou art become a transgressor of the law.

The 'turn the other cheek' is about thoughts of revenge should be pushed aside as Christ will take revenge for all tribulation a person siffers because of faith.
2Th:1:6-8:
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
And to you who are troubled rest with us,
when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Posting all of the above should help with this next part. When a Christian has no thoughts of revenge, like are allowed to members of the 12 Tribes a whole different set of emotions exist. Revenge thoughts cause certain emotions, when your day is about 'feeding the poor' a whole different set of emotions are experienced throughout the day:
Ga:5:14-26:
For all the law is fulfilled in one word,
even in this;
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
But if ye bite and devour one another,
take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
This I say then,
Walk in the Spirit,
and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit,
and the Spirit against the flesh:
and these are contrary the one to the other:
so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
But if ye be led of the Spirit,
ye are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest,
which are these;
Adultery,
fornication,
uncleanness,
lasciviousness,
Idolatry,
witchcraft,
hatred,
variance,
emulations,
wrath,
strife,
seditions,
heresies,
Envyings,
murders,
drunkenness,
revellings,
and such like:
of the which I tell you before,
as I have also told you in time past,
that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love,
joy,
peace,
longsuffering,
gentleness,
goodness,
faith,
Meekness,
temperance:
against such there is no law.
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
If we live in the Spirit,
let us also walk in the Spirit.
Let us not be desirous of vain glory,
provoking one another,
envying one another.

 

[fhansen]

Transgression of the 10 Commandments for an OT only believer means you have to commit an act. Like the woman accused of adultery that Jesus was supposed to stone. For a Christian when you think about breaking one of the commandments you are in sin enough that it should be repented in a private prayer to God.
M't:5:27-28:
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time,
Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you,
That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
A member of the 12 Tribes would read this as being an action has to be completed, while a Christian would read it as refereeing to a thought alone (spirit)
Jas:2:8-11:
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,
ye do well:
But if ye have respect to persons,
ye commit sin,
and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
For whosoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet offend in one point,
he is guilty of all.
For he that said,
Do not commit adultery,
said also,
Do not kill.
Now if thou commit no adultery,
yet if thou kill,
thou art become a transgressor of the law.

The 'turn the other cheek' is about thoughts of revenge should be pushed aside as Christ will take revenge for all tribulation a person siffers because of faith.
2Th:1:6-8:
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
And to you who are troubled rest with us,
when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Posting all of the above should help with this next part. When a Christian has no thoughts of revenge, like are allowed to members of the 12 Tribes a whole different set of emotions exist. Revenge thoughts cause certain emotions, when your day is about 'feeding the poor' a whole different set of emotions are experienced throughout the day:
Ga:5:14-26:
For all the law is fulfilled in one word,
even in this;
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
But if ye bite and devour one another,
take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
This I say then,
Walk in the Spirit,
and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit,
and the Spirit against the flesh:
and these are contrary the one to the other:
so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
But if ye be led of the Spirit,
ye are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest,
which are these;
Adultery,
fornication,
uncleanness,
lasciviousness,
Idolatry,
witchcraft,
hatred,
variance,
emulations,
wrath,
strife,
seditions,
heresies,
Envyings,
murders,
drunkenness,
revellings,
and such like:
of the which I tell you before,
as I have also told you in time past,
that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love,
joy,
peace,
longsuffering,
gentleness,
goodness,
faith,
Meekness,
temperance:
against such there is no law.
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
If we live in the Spirit,
let us also walk in the Spirit.
Let us not be desirous of vain glory,
provoking one another,
envying one another.

And this basically tells us that to the extent that we live by the Spirit we won't commit deeds of the flesh, meaning, IOW, we won't break the law, even if we've never heard the law. Otherwise, sin would still condemn us.

 

[Clare73]

We are not guilty of Adam's sin, we suffer the consequences of it.

To suffer the consequences of that for which we are not held guilty is injustice.
To be just, the inheritance of the consequences of Adam's sin
requires our inheritance of the guilt of Adam's sin.
But we do not inherit our Father's sin/guilt (Ezekiel 18:20).
It is because God imputes Adam's guilt to us that we suffer the consequence of Adam's sin.

Imputation of Adam's sin/guilt is demonstrated in Romans 5:12-15, where between Adam and Moses
no one sinned (Romans 5:14) because there was no legislated law carrying the death penalty to cause them to sin ("where there is no law, there is no sin," Romans 4:15, Romans 5:13),
yet all died (when death is due only to sin, Romans 6:23) because all sinned (Romans 5:12).

So of what sin did they die when they did not sin (Romans 5:14)?
"They died by the trespass of one man" (Romans 5:15), whose guilt was not inherited (Ezekiel 18:20), rather it was imputed to them by God.

That imputation to us of sinful Adam's guilt was the pattern (Romans 5:14) of the imputation to us of sinless Christ's righteousness (Romans 4:1-11).

Through Adam death was brought into the world. That is what Romans 5:18 means. Yeshua brought life.

Romans 5:18 means what it states, and it does not state "death," it states "condemnation," as in wrath (Romans 5:9).

Romans 5:12-18 presents our guilt by imputation,
sinful Adam being the pattern of sinless Christ (Romans 5:14), the pattern of imputation (Romans 4:1-11).

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Romans 5:12-18 presents our guilt by imputation,
sinful Adam being the pattern for sinless Christ (Romans 5:14)
in imputation (Romans 4:1-11).

We are not guilty of Adam's sin, we suffer the consequences of it...DEATH. That is what it says. We are all born into a fallen world and sin.

 

[Clare73]

We are not guilty of Adam's sin, we suffer the consequences of it...DEATH. That is what it says. We are all born into a fallen world and sin.

Romans 5:18-19 demonstrates Adam is the pattern of Christ (Romans 5:14)
in the contrasting parallels ("just as". . ."so also") of
the imputation of Adam's sin/guilt ("were made sinners," not "became sinners") with
the imputation of Christ's righteousness ("were made righteous," not "became righteous").

Both Adam's sin (Romans 5:12-15) and Christ's righteousness are imputed to us (Romans 4:1-11), sinful Adam being the pattern (Romans 5:14) of sinless Christ.

 

[HARK!]

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[fhansen]

We are not guilty of Adam's sin, we suffer the consequences of it...DEATH. That is what it says. We are all born into a fallen world and sin.

And would that be characterized as physical death, spiritual death, or both?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Romans 5:18-19 demonstrates Adam is the pattern of Christ (Romans 5:14)
in the contrasting parallels ("just as". . ."so also") of
the imputation of Adam's sin/guilt ("were made sinners," not "became sinners") with
the imputation of Christ's righteousness ("were made righteous," not "became righteous").

Both Adam's sin (Romans 5:12-15) and Christ's righteousness are imputed to us (Romans 4:1-11), sinful Adam being the pattern (Romans 5:14) of sinless Christ.

Adam gave us death while Yeshua gave us life...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

And would that be characterized as physical death, spiritual death, or both?

Yes

 

[fhansen]

Yes

And could the hallmark and the evil of that death be charactized as alienatiion from God, perhaps-with heaven, existence with Him, being eternal life and hell being eternal death and earth being a sort of halfway house where both are eperienced to a degree, where good and evil, life and death, are known- and we can choose between the two?

Anyway, a teaching I'm familiar with says that the chief aspect of the state sometimes known as "original sin" is that state of separtion from God that we're all born into. It's a state of injustice, disorder, of sin, outside of God's will for man. It's our sickness, "lostness": our death.

And with and due to that alienatiion sin is inevitable, just as union with God brings about the ability to overcome sin. Faith is the entranceway to that union which, itself, cionsitutes the state of justice now for man, one that he was made for.

 

[Clare73]

Adam gave us death while Yeshua gave us life...

Agreed. . .which does not deal with the consequence of Adam's sin.

From post #12:
To suffer the consequences of that for which we are not held guilty is injustice.
To be just, the inheritance of the consequences of Adam's sin requires
our inheritance of the guilt of Adam's sin.
But we do not inherit our Father's sin/guilt (Ezekiel 18:20).
It is because God imputes Adam's guilt to us that we suffer the consequence of Adam's sin.

Imputation of Adam's sin/guilt is demonstrated in Romans 5:12-15, where between Adam and Moses
no one sinned (Romans 5:14) because there was no legislated law carrying the death penalty to cause them to sin ("where there is no law, there is no sin," Romans 4:15, Romans 5:13),
yet all died (when death is due only to sin, Romans 6:23) because all sinned (Romans 5:12).

So of what sin did they die when no one sinned (Romans 5:14)?
"They died by the trespass of one man" (Romans 5:15), whose guilt was not inherited (Ezekiel 18:20), rather it was imputed to them by God.

That imputation to us of sinful Adam's guilt was the pattern (Romans 5:14) of the imputation to us of sinless Christ's righteousness (Romans 4:1-11).

Through Adam death was brought into the world. That is what Romans 5:18 means. Yeshua brought life.

Romans 5:18 means what it states, and it does not state "death," it states "condemnation," as in wrath (Romans 5:9).

Romans 5:12-18 presents our guilt by imputation,
sinful Adam being the pattern of sinless Christ (Romans 5:14), the pattern of imputation (Romans 4:1-11).