The mind set on the flesh

[Hammster]

Ok, what is the gift then?

I’m just telling you what it says.

 

[d taylor]

You cannot please God in the flesh. Scripture is clear. A non-believer cannot please God because they don’t act to glorify God.

You must not be familiar with Cornelius.

 

[Hammster]

You must not be familiar with Cornelius.

Maybe I’m not. Where in that story slides it mention the moment God changes his heart?

 

[zoidar]

You cannot please God in the flesh. Scripture is clear. A non-believer cannot please God because they don’t act to glorify God.

Was Naaman a believer in God when he dipped himself in the river of Jordan? Was he in the Spirit or in the flesh? Was it pleasing to God?

 

[zoidar]

I’m just telling you what it says.

I can read what it says. What we are discussing is how we understand it.

 

[Hammster]

Was Naaman a believer in God when he dipped himself in the river of Jordan? Was he in the Spirit or in the flesh? Was it pleasing to God?

Well, I just read the account and it doesn’t say whether he was a believer, or whether his actions pleased God.

 

[Hammster]

I can read what it says. What we are discussing is how we understand it.

Well, we do know that we are justified by faith. Perhaps that’s the gift.

 

[zoidar]

Well, I just read the account and it doesn’t say whether he was a believer, or whether his actions pleased God.

Ok, you think God would have healed him if Naamans act wasn't pleasing to God?

To me it''s quite obvious Naaman wasn't a man of faith in the Israel God (2 Kings 5:11). It says first after his healing he realized there was no god like the God of Israel (2 Kings 5:15).

But Naaman was furious and went away and said, “Behold, I thought, ‘He will surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God, and wave his hand over the place and cure the leper.’
— 2 Kings 5:11

When he returned to the man of God with all his company, and came and stood before him, he said, “Behold now, I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; so please take a present from your servant now.”
— 2 Kings 5:15

 

[Hammster]

Ok, you think God would have healed him if Naamans act wasn't pleasing to God?

It doesn’t say.

To me it''s quite obvious Naaman wasn't a man of faith in the Israel God (2 Kings 5:11). It says first after his healing he realized there was no god like the God of Israel (2 Kings 5:15).

But Naaman was furious and went away and said, “Behold, I thought, ‘He will surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God, and wave his hand over the place and cure the leper.’
— 2 Kings 5:11

When he returned to the man of God with all his company, and came and stood before him, he said, “Behold now, I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; so please take a present from your servant now.”
— 2 Kings 5:15

And it never says whether he became a believer. There are many accounts in the OT where foreign kings acknowledged the God of Israel. That doesn’t mean they were saved.

 

[zoidar]

Well, we do know that we are justified by faith. Perhaps that’s the gift.

Although it says the Holy Spirit is the gift from repentance. You need to deal with that somehow.

Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
— Acts 2:38

 

[zoidar]

It doesn’t say.

No, it does not, but from my understanding of God if He does a miracle to someone it's because the person has pleased Him. I can't bring to mind anywhere in Scripture where God does a miracle to someone who hasn't been pleasing to Him. Can you?

And it never says whether he became a believer. There are many accounts in the OT where foreign kings acknowledged the God of Israel. That doesn’t mean they were saved.

Agree with you on this. It does not say Naaman got saved

 

[Hammster]

Although it says the Holy Spirit is the gift from repentance. You need to deal with that somehow.

Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
— Acts 2:38

It says says they will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hammster]

No, it does not, but from my understanding of God if He does a miracle to someone it's because the person has pleased Him. I can't bring to mind anywhere in Scripture where God does a miracle to someone who hasn't been pleasing to Him. Can you?

Well, it never said Naaman pleased Him.

And there’s the man born blind in John 9.

Plus try casting out of demons.

 

[d taylor]

Maybe I’m not. Where in that story slides it mention the moment God changes his heart?

Cornelius was sent an angel from God in a vision to tell him to send men to bring back Peter. Because Cornelius were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.

So God sent Peter to Cornelius, so Cornelius could learn that is is belief in Jesus which gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life. Where it is seen that after Peter's testimony about Jesus.

Peter states All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Then it is seen While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.

So the order was hear the message about Jesus, then believe in Jesus and at the moment of belief the believers receive The Holy Spirit.

 

[zoidar]

It says says they will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I thought that was what I said.

 

[zoidar]

Well, it never said Naaman pleased Him.

And there’s the man born blind in John 9.

Plus try casting out of demons.

When He had said this, He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and applied the clay to his eyes, and said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which is translated, Sent). So he went away and washed, and came back seeing.
— John 9:6-7

I think the blind man acted pleasingly to God. He listened to Jesus and did as he was told.

 

[Hammster]

I thought that was what I said.

You said the Holy Spirit is the gift from repentance. You rewrote what it said.

 

[Hammster]

Cornelius was sent an angel from God in a vision to tell him to send men to bring back Peter. Because Cornelius were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.

So God sent Peter to Cornelius, so Cornelius could learn that is is belief in Jesus which gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life. Where it is seen that after Peter's testimony about Jesus.

Peter states All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Then it is seen While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.

So the order was hear the message about Jesus, then believe in Jesus and at the moment of belief the believers receive The Holy Spirit.

I know all that. I thought you’d have something specific about when God changed his heart.

 

[Hammster]

When He had said this, He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and applied the clay to his eyes, and said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which is translated, Sent). So he went away and washed, and came back seeing.
— John 9:6-7

I think the blind man acted pleasingly to God. He listened to Jesus and did as he was told.

Where does it say that?

 

[zoidar]

You said the Holy Spirit is the gift from repentance. You rewrote what it said.

Ok, it says repent and be baptized and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Would it be wrong to say you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit from repentance and baptism? In that case why? The Holy Spirit is the gift from repentance (and baptism). Doesn't that mean the same thing? I don't really see a difference here.