The Catholic Church used to teach There is no salvation outside of it.. not being taught by the Vatican today

[discombobulated1]

The Catholic Church used to teach There is no salvation outside of it.. no longer taught by the Vatican today​

I've been studying and living Catholicism for a couple decades now and there are many things that seem complicated for a Catholic to fully understand

One is that the Church, prior to 1958 (which means the Church taught for 19 hundred & 58 years) that there is no salvation outside the Church Christ founded, the Catholic Church.

OK, I am not trying to argue with Protestants on whether that is true. I've done that before and gotten nowhere. What I am focused on is:

1) Do most Catholics today still believe that?
2) Do only Traditionalist Catholics believe it?
3) Does Francis explicitly teach against it? (it looks like it but I have not recently looked at what he says... decided a long time ago he is not a real Catholic.

Also, is it "hateful" to adhere to this... hateful to Protestants?

And yet the Truth is never "hateful." It is the Truth that will set us free... Unless we face the Truth--Capital T--we will never be fully IN CHRIST (who is Truth Incarnate) as is necessary to get into Heaven

 

[RileyG]

Depends what do you mean by no salvation outside the Church?

Do you mean all non-Catholics are automatically damned once they die? Nope, we don’t teach that.

 

[discombobulated1]

Depends what do you mean by no salvation outside the Church?

Do you mean all non-Catholics are automatically damned once they die? Nope, we don’t teach that.

My understanding is that VIRTUALLY no one can get into Heaven except through the Catholic Church. If someone makes it to Heaven without being (fully) Catholic, it is nonetheless through the auspices of the RCC that that person made it. Maybe a person looks at the RCC and is not against it but doesn't fully understand some things about it and so does not join. The person dies before he can join but has confessed his sins as best he could to Jesus, though without a priest... That person can be saved. But those who vehemently argue against the RCC and never bother to investigate its claims to be the Original... different story

 

[RileyG]

My understanding is that VIRTUALLY no one can get into Heaven except through the Catholic Church. If someone makes it to Heaven without being (fully) Catholic, it is nonetheless through the auspices of the RCC that that person made it. Maybe a person looks at the RCC and is not against it but doesn't fully understand some things about it and so does not join. The person dies before he can join but has confessed his sins as best he could to Jesus, though without a priest... That person can be and likely is saved. But those who vehemently argue against the RCC and never bother to investigate its claims to be the Original... different story

We can always privately pray for those who died outside the Church. God exists outside of time and apply those prayers to them when they were living.

 

[Valletta]

My understanding is that VIRTUALLY no one can get into Heaven except through the Catholic Church. If someone makes it to Heaven without being (fully) Catholic, it is nonetheless through the auspices of the RCC that that person made it. Maybe a person looks at the RCC and is not against it but doesn't fully understand some things about it and so does not join. The person dies before he can join but has confessed his sins as best he could to Jesus, though without a priest... That person can be saved. But those who vehemently argue against the RCC and never bother to investigate its claims to be the Original... different story

No one can get into Heaven except through Jesus. Jesus heads the Catholic, or universal Church. The Catholic Church on earth considers other Christians to be part of the Catholic Church, although they lack the "fullness of the faith."

 

[Clare73]

The Catholic Church used to teach There is no salvation outside of it.. no longer taught by the Vatican today​

I've been studying and living Catholicism for a couple decades now and there are many things that seem complicated for a Catholic to fully understand
One is that the Church, prior to 1958 (which means the Church taught for 19 hundred & 58 years) that
there is no salvation outside the Church Christ founded, the Catholic Church.

The church is the body of Christ; i.e., all born again and of faith in Jesus Christ (Jn 3:3-5).

OK, I am not trying to argue with Protestants on whether that is true. I've done that before and gotten nowhere. What I am focused on is:
1) Do most Catholics today still believe that?
2) Do only Traditionalist Catholics believe it?
3) Does Francis explicitly teach against it? (it looks like it but I have not recently looked at what he says... decided a long time ago he is not a real Catholic. Also, is it "hateful" to adhere to this... hateful to Protestants?
And yet the Truth is never "hateful." It is the Truth that will set us free... Unless we face the Truth--Capital T--we will never be fully IN CHRIST (who is Truth Incarnate) as is necessary to get into Heaven

The Biblical facts are:

1) all the born again are the body of Christ,
2) the body of Christ is the church,
3) therefore, it is correct to say there are no redeemed outside the body of Christ, the church.

And one is in the body of Christ, the church, only by faith in and trust on the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin.

So there is no salvation outside the church, because by definition the church is the assembly of the saved through faith in Jesus Christ.
So there is no salvation outside the body of Christ, the spouse of Christ (Eph 5:30-33), which is the church.

 

[Valletta]

The Catholic Church used to teach There is no salvation outside of it.. no longer taught by the Vatican today​

Today's Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

 

[Simon_Templar]

The Catholic Church used to teach There is no salvation outside of it.. no longer taught by the Vatican today​

I've been studying and living Catholicism for a couple decades now and there are many things that seem complicated for a Catholic to fully understand

One is that the Church, prior to 1958 (which means the Church taught for 19 hundred & 58 years) that there is no salvation outside the Church Christ founded, the Catholic Church.

OK, I am not trying to argue with Protestants on whether that is true. I've done that before and gotten nowhere. What I am focused on is:

1) Do most Catholics today still believe that?
2) Do only Traditionalist Catholics believe it?
3) Does Francis explicitly teach against it? (it looks like it but I have not recently looked at what he says... decided a long time ago he is not a real Catholic.

Also, is it "hateful" to adhere to this... hateful to Protestants?

And yet the Truth is never "hateful." It is the Truth that will set us free... Unless we face the Truth--Capital T--we will never be fully IN CHRIST (who is Truth Incarnate) as is necessary to get into Heaven

The Church still teaches this, but you have to properly understand it.

The Church has definitively stated that the understanding of this doctrine which holds that all non-Catholics are condemned to hell is false, and heretical.

What the Church teaches, and has always taught, is that the means of salvation have been sent by God into the world exclusively through the Church. Thus if any person has received the grace of salvation, they have received it through the Church, whether they are visibly a member of the Church or not.

The Church is the fullness of Jesus Christ. Apart from Christ there is no salvation.

 

[prodromos]

Unfortunately Rome left the Catholic Church in 1054

 

[David Lamb]

The person dies before he can join but has confessed his sins as best he could to Jesus, though without a priest... That person can be saved.

I hope you didn't mean that confessing one's sins to Jesus is second best to confessing them to a Roman Catholic priest! We don't find Jesus or the apostles teaching Christians to confess their sins to a priest.

 

[Valletta]

I hope you didn't mean that confessing one's sins to Jesus is second best to confessing them to a Roman Catholic priest! We don't find Jesus or the apostles teaching Christians to confess their sins to a priest.

God hears everything, when you confess through a priest, Orthodox or Catholic, you can be assured that Jesus forgives all of your sins. Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins in His name.

 

[FenderTL5]

I hope you didn't mean that confessing one's sins to Jesus is second best to confessing them to a Roman Catholic priest! We don't find Jesus or the apostles teaching Christians to confess their sins to a priest.

The Apostles/Scripture teaches to confess our sins to one another (James). The Church has considered confession to Priest/Confessor as adhering to that Scriptural criteria. Although, some have seen that as a public confession to the whole congregation. Private confession is also encouraged (and certainly not discouraged) but it does not preclude the need for Confession.

 

[David Lamb]

God hears everything, when you confess through a priest, Orthodox or Catholic, you can be assured that Jesus forgives all of your sins. Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins in His name.

I imagine you are thinking of John 20:23, where Jesus says to the disciples:
“If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the [sins] of any, they are retained.” (Joh 20:23 NKJV)

The apostles seem to have understood this in in a declarative sense - because not once in the New Testament do we read of Christians being directed to confess their sins to an apostle. Indeed, the apostles are never referred to as priests, nor do we read of the church having priests. The Pharisees were correct when they said, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" If Christians have access to God the Father in prayer and confession through Jesus Christ, there is no need to come through a priest.

 

[Valletta]

I imagine you are thinking of John 20:23, where Jesus says to the disciples:
“If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the [sins] of any, they are retained.” (Joh 20:23 NKJV)

The apostles seem to have understood this in in a declarative sense - because not once in the New Testament do we read of Christians being directed to confess their sins to an apostle. Indeed, the apostles are never referred to as priests, nor do we read of the church having priests. The Pharisees were correct when they said, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" If Christians have access to God the Father in prayer and confession through Jesus Christ, there is no need to come through a priest.

The Apostles would have known of the priests that offered sacrifices for sin in OT times. They would have believed the words of Jesus, they did nothing to suggest otherwise. Again it is God who forgives the sins, working through a priest.

“For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop” Ignantius of Antioch (Letter to the Philadelphians 8 [A.D. 110]).

“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command” Hippolytus (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

 

[David Lamb]

The Apostles would have known of the priests that offered sacrifices for sin in OT times. They would have believed the words of Jesus, they did nothing to suggest otherwise. Again it is God who forgives the sins, working through a priest.

“For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop” Ignantius of Antioch (Letter to the Philadelphians 8 [A.D. 110]).

“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command” Hippolytus (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

Thank you for replying. Yes, the apostles would have known that priests offered sacrifices for sin in the OT, but did they believe that meant the OT priests actually forgave the sins? Did they further believe that New Testament churches were to have priests? If they did, it is surprising that in their preaching and writing (e.g. the epistles), they made no mention of the fact, even when writing to gentiles. Yes, they give instructions for appointing elders, sometimes called "overseers", and deacons. The only place where "priesthood" is used of Christian churches (apart, of course, from the reference to Jesus Christ being their great High Priest) says that all Christians are priests:
“But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;” (1Pe 2:9 NKJV)

 

[David Lamb]

The Apostles/Scripture teaches to confess our sins to one another (James). The Church has considered confession to Priest/Confessor as adhering to that Scriptural criteria. Although, some have seen that as a public confession to the whole congregation. Private confession is also encouraged (and certainly not discouraged) but it does not preclude the need for Confession.

But the words of James say nothing about confessing your sins to a priest. It is surely a command to confess to someone we have wronged.

 

[Valletta]

Thank you for replying. Yes, the apostles would have known that priests offered sacrifices for sin in the OT, but did they believe that meant the OT priests actually forgave the sins? Did they further believe that New Testament churches were to have priests? If they did, it is surprising that in their preaching and writing (e.g. the epistles), they made no mention of the fact, even when writing to gentiles. Yes, they give instructions for appointing elders, sometimes called "overseers", and deacons. The only place where "priesthood" is used of Christian churches (apart, of course, from the reference to Jesus Christ being their great High Priest) says that all Christians are priests:
“But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;” (1Pe 2:9 NKJV)

The word "priest" is derived from "presbyter" spoken of in the Bible, and "bishop" from the word "episkopos" in the Bible. Jesus fulfilled what came before. Jesus was from the tribe of Judah--He was not a Levite. Catholic priests are of the "order of Melchizedek." Recall Melchizedek was both the king of Salem and a priest. Eventually Salem became known as Jerusalem. Jesus acted as a priest during the Last Supper, when he commanded the Apostles to "Do this." Instead of offering mere bread and wine as Melchizedek did, Jesus offers His Body and Blood under the appearance of bread and wine. This is what Catholic priests do, they follow Christ's commandment at the Last supper each time they say mass. Much of the mass, by the way, is described in Revelation.

 

[David Lamb]

The word "priest" is derived from "presbyter" spoken of in the Bible, and "bishop" from the word "episkopos" in the Bible. Jesus fulfilled what came before. Jesus was from the tribe of Judah--He was not a Levite. Catholic priests are of the "order of Melchizedek." Recall Melchizedek was both the king of Salem and a priest. Eventually Salem became known as Jerusalem. Jesus acted as a priest during the Last Supper, when he commanded the Apostles to "Do this." Instead of offering mere bread and wine as Melchizedek did, Jesus offers His Body and Blood under the appearance of bread and wine. This is what Catholic priests do, they follow Christ's commandment at the Last supper each time they say mass. Much of the mass, by the way, is described in Revelation.

The English word "priest" is indeed derived from the Greek "presbyteros". But that Greek word was not used in the bible for "priest" but meant "elder". Where in the bible is there the slightest indication that Roman Catholic priests are of the order of Melchizedek"?