Some call it Politics but I call it Getting involved in order to Christianize society

[expos4ever]

Trump is pro Christian even if he hasn't as yet, that i know of, claimed to be a Christian himself. But I say he is...

You're right, how could I have missed this?

What with the bribes to adult film stars, the boasting about sexual assault, the insulting tweets making fun of women's appearances, the dog whistles to xenophobes and racists, and the attempts overthrow the democratic process,.... How is it not obvious that Mr Trump is indeed a Christian.

Come on, man.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

That's what the liberal media would have us believe. But remember, they are brainwashing us with their liberal ideology that is destroying our country.

Those who support this kind of thing are violating the Bible's command to obey man's laws..

welcome desperate immigrants, dehumanize no one and make sure no children are malnourished?.

You're right, how could I have missed this?

What with the bribes to adult film stars, the boasting about sexual assault, the insulting tweets making fun of women's appearances, the dog whistles to xenophobes and racists, and the attempts overthrow the democratic process,.... How is it not obvious that Mr Trump is indeed a Christian.

Come on, man.

Being 'Christian" is so much more than just saying it.

"Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father.

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

"Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me.

"Whoever does not love me does not keep my words

"If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love."

 

[lifepsyop]

and the attempts overthrow the democratic process,.... How is it not obvious that Mr Trump is indeed a Christian.

What is it about the democratic process that is Christian?

Living by "the will of the people" is possibly one of the more satanic social models a society could have. Just take a look at its fruits.

 

[MarkSB]

I have a lot of sympathy for what is in your post. However, I believe the uncomfortable truth is that Scripture teaches that Jesus is indeed the enthroned "political" leader of the world whether people accept it or not.

For example, through a cryptic statement made to Caiaphus, Jesus declares He will very shortly become King. Note what Jesus says to Caiaphus when the latter ask if He is “Christ” (this means “king”, although readers may dispute this):

"Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

The reference to sitting at the right hand of power comes from Psalm 110:

The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand…”

The “coming with the clouds of heaven” statement is an allusion to this material from Daniel 7:

I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the (O)hair of His head like pure wool

His (P)throne was ablaze with flames,
………
"I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

From both these references, it is clear that Jesus intends Caiaphus to see Him (Jesus) in the role of the Son of Man figure who gets presented to the Ancient of Days (YHWH) and takes the other of the two thrones (note the multiplicity of thrones in the Daniel material).

Among the many rich implications of this passage we have this: In this scenario, YHWH gets seated (apart from what happens to the Son of Man figure). This is a clear allusion to the enthronement of YHWH, fulfilling the deeply held, and scripturally sustained, Jewish expectation that YHWH will, at some point, become King of all the world.

Is Jesus king over the earth? Yes - we have clear allusions to Jesus as one who, having already been seated, is now ruling over all nations and peoples.

And, I suggest, there are many other Biblical texts that teach, uncomfortable though it may be to accept, that Jesus is indeed a real "political" King. After all, in what sense would Jesus be a king if he were only ruling over our "inner lives" and not over the way we structure and operate our larger society?

Now then, let me state the obvious: even if we establish that Jesus is a true king and that we are called to participate in making that concrete in all spheres of human activity (and I believe we are called to do so), there is a further question: what are the values that we want enshrined in public life?

I cannot answer that definitively but one thing is clear: they are not, for the most part at least, the values of the American evangelical right. And it is equally obvious that the last person one would reasonably say represents Christlikeness is one Donald J. Trump.

I am certainly in agreement with your last 2 sentences. But I still think you are conflating earthly kingdoms with the kingdom of God. There is nothing in those verses that instructs Christians to take dominion over all spheres of life. Jesus resisted using his power for worldly gain, and that is all that politicized Christianity is about - gaining worldly power at all costs. We have seen the results of such pursuits again and again throughout history, and they are very rarely (if ever) good.

To clarify my position: It is not my belief that Christians should never bring their beliefs and God-centered values into the political sphere. Christians should remain guided by conscience and by the Spirit of God wherever they go. But battling to take over a government and declare it 'Christian'? Putting enormous effort and focus into declaring America to be a 'Christian' Nation? The fruits of such efforts speak for themselves.

EDIT: I haven't read any of your posts after the one that I quoted above - so perhaps we are more in agreement than what I am initially perceiving. As I've tried to iterate above - I do believe that God works through our institutions, but certainly not by the methods which most American (particularly right wing) Christians seem to embrace. And I think a large portion of American Christians place too much importance on political beliefs. I say all this as a person who considers himself to be politically conservative - but am no doubt considered to be a 'RINO' by the party of Trump.

Personally, I think God's ways are so much higher than ours, that to try to compare them at length to any human institution is futile. Does the bible say that Jesus is the King of Kings? Yes - but that is only to communicate his power and dominion in terms that we can understand. The manner in which God works and the structure by which He 'governs' (if you want to call it that) is so beyond us and so different from the human level of existence that it is unfathomable. We get to see glimpses and pieces of it from time to time, and sometimes our own part in it - but none of us get to see the big picture. And my guess is that the big picture looks vastly different than what any of us could imagine.

 

[lifepsyop]

Personally, I think God's ways are so much higher than ours, that to try to compare them at length to any human institution is futile. Does the bible say that Jesus is the King of Kings? Yes - but that is only to communicate his power and dominion in terms that we can understand. The manner in which God works and the structure by which He 'governs' (if you want to call it that) is so beyond us and so different from the human level of existence that it is unfathomable. We get to see glimpses and pieces of it from time to time, and sometimes our own part in it - but none of us get to see the big picture. And my guess is that the big picture looks vastly different than what any of us could imagine.

True, but we have a good deal of solid guidance for our institutions. (If we are to believe the words of the apostles that is...)

The institution of marriage... the household led by the husband/father... That is basically the entire basis of a Christian society and America fails pretty hard there.

Peter and Paul say to honor the king. Americans say to kill the king. That's another big one that American Christians don't like talking about.

 

[expos4ever]

I am certainly in agreement with your last 2 sentences. But I still think you are conflating earthly kingdoms with the kingdom of God.

I suggest there is no scriptural basis for believing that the Kingdom of God is not an "earthly" kingdom. Look at the text I just presented - Jesus tells Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will live to see Jesus "coming on the clouds" - a clear reference to the Daniel 7 passage where the Son of Man (at term Jesus also used to describe Himself) is given, yes, an earthly kingdom:

"I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him

How is this not clear - Jesus is telling Caiaphus about an imminent earthly kingdom! And there are many more texts like this. The Kingdom of God is not some mystical "internal" aspect of Christian experience - it is simply Jesus's Kingship over everything, including "the nations and the peoples".

Since I suspect you will bring it up, let me address Luke 17.

Some assert that a brief of teaching in Luke 17, particularly verse 21, locate the kingdom of God as “inside” the believer, with the implication that the broader world does not fall under its jurisdiction. Here are several translations of verse 21:

NET: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

NIV: nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you."

NASB: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

NLT: You won’t be able to say, ‘Here it is!’ or ‘It’s over there!’ For the Kingdom of God is among you."

MSG:Nor when someone says, 'Look here!' or, 'There it is!' And why? Because God's kingdom is already among you."

BBE: And men will not say, See, it is here! or, There! for the kingdom of God is among you.

NRSV: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among you."

NKJV: "nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

Note how only 2 of these 8 translations render the last bit as “within you”. All the other translations have Jesus telling the listeners that the Kingdom is “in your midst” or “among you” – suggesting, of course, that the kingdom is “present right now”.

And the fatal blow to the “within you” interpretation arises from who Jesus is speaking to:

Now at one point the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, so he answered, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed

If Jesus is saying that the “location” of the kingdom is specifically “within the human person”, Jesus is telling the Pharisees that the kingdom of God is within them, the Pharisees, in this sense.

Not likely, of course – the Pharisees were precisely the ones in whom the kingdom was not present.

To clarify my position: It is not my belief that Christians should never bring their beliefs and God-centered values into the political sphere. Christians should remain guided by conscience and by the Spirit of God wherever they go. But battling to take over a government and declare it 'Christian'? Putting enormous effort and focus into declaring America to be a 'Christian' Nation? The fruits of such efforts speak for themselves.

It seems to me that we may be in agreement. I trust you will agree that nothing I have posted endorses the kind efforts we see in the US, or even historically elsewhere, to bring "God into government". In fact, I have clearly stated I think American evangelicalism is off the rails.

This is complicated and I do not have the time to express myself fully. So to summarize my position: I believe scripture teaches that we Christians are to work to enshrine "Kingdom of God" values in every sphere of human activity, including government. But we should do so in the setting of a democratic model. We can discuss what this would actually "look like", but I believe my summary (a) is consistent with Biblical teaching that the Kingdom of God is indeed an earthly kingdom; and (b) mandates that we use the instrumentality of democracy to attempt to implement Kingdom of God principles in our world.

 

[MarkSB]

I suggest there is no scriptural basis for believing that the Kingdom of God is not an "earthly" kingdom. Look at the text I just presented - Jesus tells Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will live to see Jesus "coming on the clouds" - a clear reference to the Daniel 7 passage where the Son of Man (at term Jesus also used to describe Himself) is given, yes, an earthly kingdom:

"I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him

How is this not clear - Jesus is telling Caiaphus about an imminent earthly kingdom! And there are many more texts like this. The Kingdom of God is not some mystical "internal" aspect of Christian experience - it is simply Jesus's Kingship over everything, including "the nations and the peoples".

Since I suspect you will bring it up, let me address Luke 17.

Some assert that a brief of teaching in Luke 17, particularly verse 21, locate the kingdom of God as “inside” the believer, with the implication that the broader world does not fall under its jurisdiction. Here are several translations of verse 21:

NET: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

NIV: nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you."

NASB: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

NLT: You won’t be able to say, ‘Here it is!’ or ‘It’s over there!’ For the Kingdom of God is among you."

MSG:Nor when someone says, 'Look here!' or, 'There it is!' And why? Because God's kingdom is already among you."

BBE: And men will not say, See, it is here! or, There! for the kingdom of God is among you.

NRSV: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among you."

NKJV: "nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

Note how only 2 of these 8 translations render the last bit as “within you”. All the other translations have Jesus telling the listeners that the Kingdom is “in your midst” or “among you” – suggesting, of course, that the kingdom is “present right now”.

And the fatal blow to the “within you” interpretation arises from who Jesus is speaking to:

Now at one point the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, so he answered, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed

If Jesus is saying that the “location” of the kingdom is specifically “within the human person”, Jesus is telling the Pharisees that the kingdom of God is within them, the Pharisees, in this sense.

Not likely, of course – the Pharisees were precisely the ones in whom the kingdom was not present.

It seems to me that we may be in agreement. I trust you will agree that nothing I have posted endorses the kind efforts we see in the US, or even historically elsewhere, to bring "God into government". In fact, I have clearly stated I think American evangelicalism is off the rails.

This is complicated and I do not have the time to express myself fully. So to summarize my position: I believe scripture teaches that we Christians are to work to enshrine "Kingdom of God" values in every sphere of human activity, including government. But we should do so in the setting of a democratic model. We can discuss what this would actually "look like", but I believe my summary (a) is consistent with Biblical teaching that the Kingdom of God is indeed an earthly kingdom; and (b) mandates that we use the instrumentality of democracy to attempt to implement Kingdom of God principles in our world.

Yeah - I think we're in agreement. Perhaps the misunderstanding is coming with my usage of the word "worldly" or "of this world"? That was the word that I originally used (in the first post that you quoted), but I see that I used the word "earthly" in my last post, which was my mistake. So perhaps that is where the misunderstanding is coming from, because I never meant to communicate that the Kingdom of God is something that only exists inside of us (I don't think I said that anywhere... but perhaps I'm mistaken.)

I agree that Christ's kingdom can be seen (and exists on) our current earth. I just don't think that God operates through the same worldly structures and methods that humans do. Can God use human institutions and government (or more accurately, the people within them) to support Godly principles? Yes - and as you have stated, I believe that is the best path for a society. But at the end of the day, government is a worldly / human construct, and God's kingdom and His ways are so high above that, and encapsulate so much more.

I think you said some of this in a different post than the one that I've quoted above - but I agree with your assessment of democracy, and the fact that it needs to include believers and non-believers. I think the Christian nationalist movement is only a power grab, and nothing more. It uses Christianity only as a means to an end, and at its core cares nothing for Christian principles. There is another active thread in this forum that discusses anti-intellectualism in the church, and I think that is also a big part of it. Trump's grip on the evangelical church is something that has continued to baffle me; but when you look back at some of the trends in the church, the warning signs are there. I just never would have expected people to run this far with it. It is something that (admittedly) impacts my faith at times - but it has also caused me to reassess my own beliefs (which is good). If the end result of all this turmoil is that the church gets moved towards a more genuine form of Christianity, then that would be good. But will that ever happen? And if so, at what cost will it come? The American church has already done great damage to it's reputation, and Trumpism could (and likely will) damage our witness for years to come.

 

[MarkSB]

It is totally lawless to allow STRANGERS into one's country who will rob, rape, and murder you and/or your fellow citizens, while violating the laws and the Constitution. We cannot sustain this level of lawlessness and remain a strong country. We cannot have just anyone entering our country.

So... it isn't entirely reflected in the post above, but many times now (in numerous threads) you have gone on rants like this against illegal immigrants. When you try (without any evidence or justification) to classify an entire group of people as rapists and criminals, that is hateful; and (it goes without saying) very un-Christlike. I firmly believe the vast majority of immigrants who come here are looking for a better life, and are willing to work hard to get there.

In fact, some studies have found that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes which result in jail time than natural born citizens:

Some of the most extensive research comes from Stanford University. Economist Ran Abramitzky found that since the 1960s, immigrants are 60% less likely to be incarcerated than U.S.-born people.​

​

There is also state level research, that shows similar results: researchers at the CATO Institute, a libertarian think tank, looked into Texas in 2019. They found that undocumented immigrants were 37.1% less likely to be convicted of a crime.​

Beyond incarceration rates, research also shows that there is no correlation between undocumented people and a rise in crime. Recent investigations by The New York Times and The Marshall Project found that between 2007 and 2016, there was no link between undocumented immigrants and a rise in violent or property crime in those communities.​

​

The reason for this gap in criminal behavior might have to do with stability and achievement. The Stanford study concludes that first-generation male immigrants traditionally do better than U.S-.born men who didn't finish high school, which is the group most likely to be incarcerated in the U.S.​

​

The study also suggests that there's a real fear of getting in trouble and being deported within immigrant communities. Far from engaging in criminal activities, immigrants mostly don't want to rock the boat.​

​

​

Do a few studies define reality? No, they do not. But it is much more evidence than you have provided thus far. (Which from what I've seen, is nothing). And I already know that the most likely retort is: "Liberal news media! Of course that it what they want you to think!" But as a professing Christian, you ought to recognize that false accusations are not something that should be taken lightly. You have - again and again - sought to define illegal immigrants as being a bunch of thieves, rapists, and murderers; and have done it without presenting a shred of evidence. The items from the article that I have quoted above also stand very much to reason.

Should the U.S. have better border and immigration policies? Yes - from my limited knowledge on the matter, I tend to think so. But spreading lies and hatred is not the way to get there. And it is not the way that Christ would advocate.

 

[discombobulated1]

What is it about the democratic process that is Christian?

Living by "the will of the people" is possibly one of the more satanic social models a society could have. Just take a look at its fruits.

can't say I disagree

Then again, we don't have a pure democracy... very good thing we don't

 

[discombobulated1]

some studies have found that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes which result in jail time than natural born citizens:

I don't believe your stats. I check out any "information" someone gives out on the net

But even if illegals commit less crimes (I mean, AFTER the initial one of crashing the border), that is rather irrelevant in light of the fact

that

Again,

What part of ILLEGAL do people not understand?

Do we make laws in this country and then neglect to require that anyone abide by them (I mean, you know... besides the privileged elite)?

That makes a lot of sense..................

Hey, I know.. Don't like a law, work to change it

as opposed to violating it.

 

[MarkSB]

I don't believe your stats. I check out any "information" someone gives out on the net

So even though this seems like a pretty pointless conversation...

Do you have more accurate stats to present? I'm willing to listen to just about anyone... but you just shot down multiple sources without saying why.

But even if illegals commit less crimes (I mean, AFTER the initial one of crashing the border), that is rather irrelevant in light of the fact

that

Again,

What part of ILLEGAL do people not understand?

No one here has contested that point. The fact that they came across the border illegally does not make them violent, however. And that is the point that we were discussing. Someone coming across the border illegally does not make it right for you to spread lies and hatred towards them. Those are blatant sins, and are not the way of Christ.

Do we make laws in this country and then neglect to require that anyone abide by them (I mean, you know... besides the privileged elite)?

That makes a lot of sense..................

Hey, I know.. Don't like a law, work to change it

as opposed to violating it.

I will be honest here - the way some of these posts read makes me wonder if you're actually being truthful about your positions, or if you're playing a role to try to stir things up. Either way, I don't see much point in continuing this conversation.

 

[FireDragon76]

What is it about the democratic process that is Christian?

Living by "the will of the people" is possibly one of the more satanic social models a society could have. Just take a look at its fruits.

If everybody is created in the image of God, everybody should get a say in how society is governed.

 

[discombobulated1]

If everybody is created in the image of God, everybody should get a say in how society is governed.

unless they are criminals

The ones crossing the border ARE criminals (unless they are legitimate asylum seekers and most are not)