Question about Grace...

[Brian-M]

I'm trying to get a better understanding of Christian beliefs, so I thought the best way to do that would be to actually ask Christians what they believe. I apologize if most of my questions have been asked by other people a thousand times before.

One thing which confuses me is the claim that we are now living under Grace, not law, and that we're no longer obliged to follow the laws of the old testament, but Matthew 5:18 clearly says that not one letter or pen stroke of the law will pass away until heaven and earth pass away, so the old laws are still valid.

From what I understand, by accepting Jesus who died for your sins, all your sins are forgiven, and so for example, you're still obliged to stone your children to death for cursing you (Exodus 21:17), you will be forgiven and not suffer any punishment for choosing not to stone your children to death.

Is this right, or am I completely misunderstanding it?

Can anyone tell me which passages are relevant to this, so I can look it up in The Bible myself?

 

[unkern]

It does get a little complex, But When Jesus came he didnt come to abolish the law but instead to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17). for instance we no longer sacrifice lambs because Jesus became the ultimate lamb.

We are forgiven for our sins, but only from repentance (basically say sorry, and never do it again). Jesus made an example of those trying to kill a woman named Mary in John 8:7 But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

She had the right to be stoned, but only by someone as pure as Jesus.

I hope that helps
Let me know if you have anymore questions
God be with you

 

[Brian-M]

It does get a little complex,

Thanks for the response, but it's the complexity I'm trying to understand.
What I've managed to find so far...

Ephesians 2:14-16 says that Jesus has abolished "the law of commandments contained in ordinances".

Matthew 5:18 says that the law cannot be abolished.

Romans 2:12-16 as far as I can tell, this seems to say that the Jews are still under Law, while us gentiles are not.

There's undoubtedly more relevant passages I'm not yet familiar with, but so far the message seems inconsistent. By asking about this, I'm hoping to get a fuller understanding of the Christian perspective on the subject.

One question that frequently occurs to non-Christians involves good people going to Hell and bad people going to Heaven.

For example, if a child-raping serial killer repents his crimes and accepts Jesus on his deathbed, then ultimately (leaving aside the question of purgatory) he is rewarded with eternal joy and happiness in the kingdom of heaven. On the other hand, if a kindly Buddhist monk declines to accept the Christian faith, and lives his entire life in quiet contemplation and doing good deeds in accordance to the teachings of Buddha, he is punished with eternal pain and torment.

From a non-Christian perspective, any God that punishes good people with eternal torment and rewards evil people with eternal happiness is by definition, a terribly cruel and unjust God.

 

[unkern]

If a child-rapist repents that means a full conversion in his heart takes place to not only accept God but also truly be sorry, But they will experience heaven differently. The bible talks alot about building up treasure in heaven so they would how we like to call it be sweeping the streets of gold (I dont actually know because I havent been to heaven). All things that are good come from God so if you accept to do good but not accept God its not gonna work out, I say this because no one is really good.

If you've ever gone through the Ten commandments no one is good. Even something as little as gossip can destroy a whole church, job, neighborhood. The point is we all need a savior because of this.

Now as for the law, when Jesus came he came to replace the old covenant with a new one. The old covenant is described as the 10 commandments. Basically the Gentiles is kinda like what we would call someone that is secular, so they are not judged by the law because they dont know it, however those that know the law have a higher accountablity.

I cant give you a sure answer on Ephesians, but it does say "in his flesh the law" was abolished most likely meaning only himself. Sorry I couldnt give you a very good answer on that one.

 

[Merlin]

Contextually Jesus was speaking to people (Jews) who were under the Law.

As for Christians,
In the early church, discussion of which laws to follow came up

Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and
said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question.
7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some
time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message
of the gospel and believe.
8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them,
just as he did to us.
9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that
neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
11 No!
We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

The consensus was:

Acts 15:28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond
the following requirements:
Acts 15:29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of
strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

 

[Brian-M]

Thanks for that. I'll look into this a bit more over the weekend. I'll probably have more questions next week.

 

[Brian-M]

I think I have a better understanding on the Christian stance on Grace now, but just to finish things off...

1. Do you have to repent specific sins, or just your sins in general?
2. What if you commit a sin, but truly believe your actions justified, and therefore cannot bring yourself to repent it? Are you condemned to hell?
3. What are the differences in opinion different denominations hold on this subject?

(I was going to ask for a definition of sin, but I'll just follow Xchristian's thread on this topic instead.)

 

[AlbertanFarmGirl]

The thing about the Bible is that in order to understand it you have to fully read the whole thing. Even then you cannot usually truely understand the verses without praying that the Spirit will grant you understanding.

We must confes all of our sins. If there is something that is on your heart repent it and ask forgiveness for those sins that you've commited during the day and may have forgoten about as well.

If you know that you have sinned, but cannot repent it it is best that you do not pretend that you are sorry, but are truely not. Ask God to bring it to your heart and help you to understand how you have gone wrong and help you to humbly follow His ways.

Sins are anything that are not good and holy and acceptable before the Lord.
If you have any more questions feel free to PM me or just keep posting here.

 

[Brian-M]

Thanks for the response, but it takes a long time to read through The Bible carefully. What I'm hoping to learn from this forum is how Christians apply the scriptures and their faith to their own lives and their understanding of the world.

 

[salida]

Ok, the New Testament is a fulfillment of the Old Testament. We are not under the law as it was in the Old Testament. In the OT - the Jews killed animals to cover their sins and has to go by very strict laws. Jesus came to be the perfect sacrifice for our sins - our sins are taken away by His blood. Now, Jews, greek, and gentiles can come to Jesus. We are saved by grace now - its the dispensation of grace. Why grace? Because even serious christians can't keep the 10 Commandments all the time 100% of the time. Even though they have the Holy Spirit which gives them the power to live a christian life - we arn't sinless but don't have a desire anymore to practice sin.
Thus, we die daily to ourselves and grow more in the Holy Spirit - its a lifelong lifestyle. We need grace which is a gift from God because we will never be able to keep the 10 Commandments like Jesus did. He was the only person who could. This is why mankind needs a savior.

***Ask yourself, Are You a Good Person? http://www.livingwaters.com/good/ This is why mankind needs a savior. Jesus is the spiritual medicine for a fallen spiritual world. We are saved by grace - its a gift. Saving faith is manifested by having good works which is a byproduct of real faith. Note: We arn't saved by works alone.

 

[salida]

One repents of all their sins and turns from the world and gives themselves to Christ whole heartly. Then they get baptized with water (symbolic of his burial); then asks for the Holy Spirit - to give the christian the power to live a christian life. Its a daily lifestyle of praying, reading the Bible (Word of God). You say if you don't want to repent? I would ask God to give me the desire to want to repent - because not repenting is rebellion against God.

 

[Catherineanne]

I'm trying to get a better understanding of Christian beliefs, so I thought the best way to do that would be to actually ask Christians what they believe. I apologize if most of my questions have been asked by other people a thousand times before.

One thing which confuses me is the claim that we are now living under Grace, not law, and that we're no longer obliged to follow the laws of the old testament, but Matthew 5:18 clearly says that not one letter or pen stroke of the law will pass away until heaven and earth pass away, so the old laws are still valid.

From what I understand, by accepting Jesus who died for your sins, all your sins are forgiven, and so for example, you're still obliged to stone your children to death for cursing you (Exodus 21:17), you will be forgiven and not suffer any punishment for choosing not to stone your children to death.

Is this right, or am I completely misunderstanding it?

Can anyone tell me which passages are relevant to this, so I can look it up in The Bible myself?

The explanation is to be found in 1 Corinthians. The law stands, but there is no law against love, joy, peace, faithfulness, goodness, gentleness and self control, which are the fruit of the Spirit of God, which is the Spirit of Christ. So as long as whatever we do is done in that Spirit, we cannot break the law, so it does not have any dominion over us any more.

So it is not that we can break the law with impunity, simply that it does not apply, as long as we live lives which reflect God's love to the world.

 

[Catherineanne]

For example, if a child-raping serial killer repents his crimes and accepts Jesus on his deathbed, then ultimately (leaving aside the question of purgatory) he is rewarded with eternal joy and happiness in the kingdom of heaven. On the other hand, if a kindly Buddhist monk declines to accept the Christian faith, and lives his entire life in quiet contemplation and doing good deeds in accordance to the teachings of Buddha, he is punished with eternal pain and torment.

From a non-Christian perspective, any God that punishes good people with eternal torment and rewards evil people with eternal happiness is by definition, a terribly cruel and unjust God.

God is not capable of being outdone by man, in any divine quality. Justice is a divine quality, and so, therefore, if something looks unjust to you or me, then God is not going to be fooled by it either.

The good Buddhist is covered by Matthew 25. The serial rapist may enter eternity, but I doubt if he will find it a place of joy and happiness, even if his repentance is sincere. In eternity we will all face the truth about ourselves, and few of us are likely to find that a pleasant prospect.

 

[Catherineanne]

I think I have a better understanding on the Christian stance on Grace now, but just to finish things off...

1. Do you have to repent specific sins, or just your sins in general?
2. What if you commit a sin, but truly believe your actions justified, and therefore cannot bring yourself to repent it? Are you condemned to hell?
3. What are the differences in opinion different denominations hold on this subject?

(I was going to ask for a definition of sin, but I'll just follow Xchristian's thread on this topic instead.)

1 All sins must be repented. Those we are aware of, and those we are not aware of.

2 It is safer to err on the side of caution. Repent of any wrongdoing, and trust in God's mercy to understand why it happened. If you are certain that it was not a sin in the first place, then there is no need to repent, but it is safest to check with your pastor/priest/trusted Christian friend to make sure.

3 I think most denominations have similar views on the need to repent of sin. The only difference I can think of is the place of a priest in this process, which is rather more active for Roman Catholics and High Anglicans, but is a possible part of the process of repentance for any Christian.