Profanity

[Resha Caner]

When I'm watching a film and someone utters a profanity, it's often only the first use that offends/frustrates me. As the story continues and the profanities mount, my attitude descends to boredom & distraction. It would be the same to me if, rather than spouting profanity, they dangled a plastic duck from a string in front of the characters every few minutes.

To me it demonstrates a pathetic lack of creativity, and I stop following the story and start thinking of all the interesting ways the character could have conveyed the proper attitude without a tedious repetition of profanity.

So, my question: For those who don't have a problem with the extensive use of profanity in film, would it be a distraction for you to watch a film that didn't have profanity in it?

 

[Eryk]

There was a lot of profanity in The Big Short, and it would have been weird if it hadn't been there. That is what you hear in that environment. I grew up surrounded by profanity and it's part of my thinking to this day.

Profanity is the most superficial and least important ethical concern. I understand why it would be a concern - it's crude and degrading. But hate speech against groups of people is much more harmful and it's usually followed by violence.

 

[Chesterton]

A film I like a lot is Scorsese's Casino. It came on TV one night with the profanity edited out, and it really wasn't the same film. The profanity is almost a co-star.

It kind of depends on the film. There's lots of films where the profanity is gratuitous, but if the dialogue is trying to be realistic, and the characters are the kind that would use profanity, then it's sort of necessary. Having said that, there are lots of good films from the old days when they didn't curse, which are realistic without the profanity, so I don't know. Maybe once you've heard it, it seems less real without it.

 

[Resha Caner]

... if the dialogue is trying to be realistic, and the characters are the kind that would use profanity, then it's sort of necessary.

I used to hear that excuse a lot when I was in writing groups. I think it very lame.

Maybe once you've heard it, it seems less real without it.

Is the purpose of film to be "real"? That would be pretty boring watching people brush their teeth, shop for groceries, sit at their kid's soccer game, etc. Nah, film has nothing to do with being "real". In film class the concept was "verisimilitude". You just have to get people to buy into the world you've created. So, for example, superhero movies have to be consistent - not real, but consistent about how they portray the fantasy they're selling.

Having said that, there are lots of good films from the old days when they didn't curse, which are realistic without the profanity, so I don't know.

Yep. One of my favorite approaches to sex comes from a silent film. The wife of a rotund military officer is having an affair with a skinny private. The wife and the private go into the bedroom and the door closes. The officer comes home unexpectedly and goes into the bedroom. It shows him taking off his coat, shoes etc. before he enters - implying that he is entering the bedroom to change his clothes. A few minutes later he comes out in different clothes, and prepares to belt his pants ... but the belt is too small.

Genius.

 

[Chesterton]

Is the purpose of film to be "real"? That would be pretty boring watching people brush their teeth, shop for groceries, sit at their kid's soccer game, etc. Nah, film has nothing to do with being "real". In film class the concept was "verisimilitude". You just have to get people to buy into the world you've created. So, for example, superhero movies have to be consistent - not real, but consistent about how they portray the fantasy they're selling.

Realism is one particular style, there are others. The purpose of a film is to be real if that's what that particular film's purpose is. I happen to have come up in the '70's when gritty realism was predominant (and they had just started using profanity freely), and I am a fan of the style.

OTOH, I mentioned a gangster film, then I remembered another - The Godfather, very realistic, and if I recall correctly there's like one, maybe two curse words in the whole long film (and one racial slur, if you count that profanity). So I don't know. I guess that shows it's really not necessary.

 

[Resha Caner]

I guess that shows it's really not necessary.

I would agree, but you seem to want it anyway. I find that curious, and I'm tempted to dig further ... but maybe that's too personal.

 

[Chesterton]

I would agree, but you seem to want it anyway. I find that curious, and I'm tempted to dig further ... but maybe that's too personal.

Well like I said, if you've seen Casino with profanity then see it without, the interactions between characters lose their intensity and impact. If you've been to film school you might more sophisticated tastes than me, but I'd have to use Scorsese movies as the best example. Like Eryk said above, I grew up around profanity, and I knew people who are like Scorsese characters, and they got portrayed well in his films, so maybe it is a personal thing. But I do hate it when it's gratuitous, just inserted in to be hip or shocking or funny.

 

[Resha Caner]

Well like I said, if you've seen Casino with profanity then see it without, the interactions between characters lose their intensity and impact. If you've been to film school you might more sophisticated tastes than me, but I'd have to use Scorsese movies as the best example. Like Eryk said above, I grew up around profanity, and I knew people who are like Scorsese characters, and they got portrayed well in his films, so maybe it is a personal thing. But I do hate it when it's gratuitous, just inserted in to be hip or shocking or funny.

So it's a way to remember something from your past? I assume, then, that it's something you want to remember.

 

[Chesterton]

So it's a way to remember something from your past? I assume, then, that it's something you want to remember.

I think it's just that I appreciate realism more than anything in a film. Some people like other things about film, but that's just me. And nothing ruins a film for me quicker than bad, unrealistic dialogue - people talking in ways that people just don't talk in real life. So I guess the profanity maybe enhances that in my view since people do curse in reality.

 

[Resha Caner]

I think it's just that I appreciate realism more than anything in a film. Some people like other things about film, but that's just me. And nothing ruins a film for me quicker than bad, unrealistic dialogue - people talking in ways that people just don't talk in real life. So I guess the profanity maybe enhances that in my view since people do curse in reality.

Hmm. Not sure I can say this in a polite way. People do lots of bad things. I hope you don't want to see it all on film. So, it seems more that you're just desensitized to it, which doesn't seem like a good thing.

And why is it that to be "real" film must show the worst of life? My sons talk frequently of how depressing English teachers are that they always make students read dark literature but hardly anything with hope. That was born out by my film class, which focused heavily on noir.

Do you ever want film to encourage positive change?

- - -

FYI, I forgot to mention that I've not been to "film school" per one of your comments. Just one class.

 

[keith99]

When I'm watching a film and someone utters a profanity, it's often only the first use that offends/frustrates me. As the story continues and the profanities mount, my attitude descends to boredom & distraction. It would be the same to me if, rather than spouting profanity, they dangled a plastic duck from a string in front of the characters every few minutes.

To me it demonstrates a pathetic lack of creativity, and I stop following the story and start thinking of all the interesting ways the character could have conveyed the proper attitude without a tedious repetition of profanity.

So, my question: For those who don't have a problem with the extensive use of profanity in film, would it be a distraction for you to watch a film that didn't have profanity in it?

Yes if profanity is omitted when it belongs. Save for a comedy it would be a major distraction if longshoremen talked like Ned Flanders or an Oxford Don.

In good hands profanity can be quite informative. For instance if a character walks in 2 worlds one coarse and one refined the viewer can quickly figure out which is being occupied at any given moment by the vocabulary used. Quite helpful when 'meeting' new characters.

And the sophisticated viewer might even be able to figure out what it means when a character who normally is quite crude when angered is instead almost polite. (Hint, it most often is not a good thing).

 

[Cearbhall]

To me it demonstrates a pathetic lack of creativity, and I stop following the story and start thinking of all the interesting ways the character could have conveyed the proper attitude without a tedious repetition of profanity.

The concept of swear words is honestly one of the most ridiculous and pointless cultural constructions I can think of, and this attitude goes right along with it. The words got the message across to you effectively, didn't they? Why judge them and dismiss them based on some idea of non-existent inherent vulgarity?

 

[Resha Caner]

Yes if profanity is omitted when it belongs. Save for a comedy it would be a major distraction if longshoremen talked like Ned Flanders or an Oxford Don.

Are you saying profanity implies a particular class of people?

 

[Resha Caner]

The words got the message across to you effectively, didn't they?

No, I don't think it did. As I said, tedious repetition of profanity bores me, and I doubt that was the filmmaker's intent. I saw an action film just yesterday, where, during the chase scene the hero was constantly muttering the s-word. He used it dozens of times over the course of a few minutes. As I said, it bores me. My mind started to drift when I believe the intent was to convey extreme duress.

It reminded me of my college neighbor who couldn't complete a sentence without using the f-word multiple times. At one point, a friend of mine remarked to him, "Are you too stupid to think of any other adjectives?" Priceless.

 

[Cearbhall]

No, I don't think it did.

How do you know what "the proper attitude" was, then? How could you think of other ways to express it if you didn't know what was being expressed?

The attitude being expressed was most likely the attitude that the profanity expressed, which is probably why the profanity was chosen. I would say that you just didn't like the attitude, which is fine. You may have stopped following the story, but it would have been a different story without the profanity. It sounds like you're just not a fan of the attitude and/or the story, which again, is fine, but I don't see any obligation on the part of the screenwriter to tell the story you want him or her to tell.

 

[Resha Caner]

How do you know what the "the proper attitude" was, then?

There is much more to a film than (poor) dialogue. I'm capable of imagining how I would feel were I in the same situation as the character. And that's what I start doing - thinking about how I would have done it differently. You honestly can't think of any other way to express negative emotions except a cuss word?

 

[Cearbhall]

There is much more to a film than (poor) dialogue. I'm capable of imagining how I would feel were I in the same situation as the character.

Ok, so you're saying it seemed out-of-character? That's hardly a matter of profanity. The same writing flaw could be achieved with the sentence "I like glitter and unicorns."

If it wasn't out-of-character, then I don't see the problem. It doesn't really matter how you would act. You are not the character. You don't know how you would react as the character.

You honestly can't think of any other way to express negative emotions except a cuss word?

Wait, when did this become about me? I haven't even said that swearing is one of my ways of expressing negative emotions, much less my only way. I'm not the character.

 

[Resha Caner]

Ok, so you're saying it seemed out-of-character? That's hardly a matter of profanity. The same writing flaw could be achieved with the sentence "I like glitter and unicorns."

No, it's probably more that I'm saying I can't associate with it.

If it wasn't out-of-character, then I don't see the problem. It doesn't really matter how you would act. You are not the character. You don't know how you would react as the character.

Not true. Films often try to get viewers to associate with the protagonist. It's the easiest way to manipulate your emotions so you'll feel you had a worthwhile experience.

And again, I doubt the filmmaker is trying to convey that the protagonist is an unimaginative dolt. But it does seem to work for a lot of people here. Still, I don't get why it works for you. If you think profanity is, "one of the most ridiculous and pointless cultural constructions," how is it conveying anything to you? If that is truly your view of profanity, wouldn't you like to see that point brought out in films where characters swear?

 

[Cearbhall]

No, it's probably more that I'm saying I can't associate with it.

I'm not seeing the problem.

Not true. Films often try to get viewers to associate with the protagonist.

Yep. Because there are always going to be some differences that you can't relate to. Seeing as you are two separate humans, there needs to be a touchpoint. In your particular case, one of the differences is the use of profanity, so there were likely other points of reference for you to use so you could relate to the character. It's not poor writing to include this one particular trait that doesn't match you, a random viewer.

 

[Oafman]

To me it demonstrates a pathetic lack of creativity

You could not be more wrong.

Would you delete the vast quantities of profanity - often creative, sometimes amusing and regularly vulgar - from the works of Shakespeare? Would you describe him as 'lacking in creativity'? Would you do the same for Wilde, Hemingway or Twain?

Language needs profanity. We benefit from having words which are regarded as unacceptable in certain situations. Like any good thing, it can be overused, or misused, or used in an unimaginative or repetitive way. But that is not a good reason to criticise those who use profanity well.

As Stephen Fry put it “The sort of twee person who thinks swearing is in any way a sign of a lack of education or a lack of verbal interest is just a f****ng lunatic.”