Orthodox Jew stopping by temporarily

[Grip Docility]

I don't think it's great, especially when they follow me being pushy or yelling. By pilfer I mean trying to convince Jews to convert and leave the community.

I'm one of those evil "Christian Zionists"... but not the weird kinds that are trying to help get the Temple rebuilt in Israel. I have debated with some very Anti-Semitic Muslims about Israel and Jews... and know that the Political climate in Israel is genuinely wild! Iran is full of regular people, but oh my goodness... their leaders are literally INSANE!

I Love G-d with all my heart and have passion for the Tanakh and obviously, being the major Goy (I'm well aware it is derogatory, but have embraced the term) that I am, Love the 27 Christian letters, as well.

Back to the point... I accidently debated some Jews while I was debating Muslims and realized that I had to go back and upgrade my Tanakh understanding. Many of those Jews really helped me and also decided that I was lovable, but nuts. I don't know about lovable, but they got the nuts part right.

Anyhoo... I read the Tanakh and continually see HaShem's passion for Jacob's Land and People... and so in that way, recognizing that HaShem Himself is the original "Zionist", go on ahead and adopt that insanity, as well.

 

[Grip Docility]

American evangelicals live in a bubble filled with people blaming "liberals" and immigrants as the source of their problems and grievances. I'm not even convinced many of them even actually believe in their bible since they ignore and discard it when convenient. They have become rage filled, political nihilists who want to control everyone else and enforce their religion through force of law.

I get this. There is a "political class" of Christians out there. However, I wouldn't call "Liberal's" liberals. I'm genuinely "Liberal", but I have to make a HARD pass on pink haired progressivism. I don't really fit in any political camp. Do you agree with most modern American Progressive stances on matters, as I assure you, Liberal isn't Progressive, and Progressive isn't Liberal.

 

[Slibhin]

I'm one of those evil "Christian Zionists"... but not the weird kinds that are trying to help get the Temple rebuilt in Israel. I have debated with some very Anti-Semitic Muslims about Israel and Jews... and know that the Political climate in Israel is genuinely wild! Iran is full of regular people, but oh my goodness... their leaders are literally INSANE!

I Love G-d with all my heart and have passion for the Tanakh and obviously, being the major Goy (I'm well aware it is derogatory, but have embraced the term) that I am, Love the 27 Christian letters, as well.

Back to the point... I accidently debated some Jews while I was debating Muslims and realized that I had to go back and upgrade my Tanakh understanding. Many of those Jews really helped me and also decided that I was lovable, but nuts. I don't know about lovable, but they got the nuts part right.

Anyhoo... I read the Tanakh and continually see HaShem's passion for Jacob's Land and People... and so in that way, recognizing that HaShem Himself is the original "Zionist", go on ahead and adopt that insanity, as well.

I never said they were evil, I just don't like them because of the harm they do to Israel and Jews. I'm aware it's not intended, but that doesn't excuse anything. The temple will never be rebuilt until G-d wants it rebuilt and any attempts to do it otherwise will end in disaster. I am not a Zionist because I believe that modern Israel is a secular creation made for secular reasons, and Israel proper will not return until the Messiah arrives.

I get this. There is a "political class" of Christians out there. However, I wouldn't call "Liberal's" liberals. I'm genuinely "Liberal", but I have to make a HARD pass on pink haired progressivism. I don't really fit in any political camp. Do you agree with most modern American Progressive stances on matters, as I assure you, Liberal isn't Progressive, and Progressive isn't Liberal.

Everyone is to the left and right of someone, so I find terms like "liberal" to be meaningless.

I don't care how people choose to live their lives, pink haired or otherwise, as long as it doesn't cause harm to others. The problem is the USA is full of people who do care for some reason and are destroying their country in order to "stop them". I don't personally care if the USA collapses, which is likely, except for the effect that will have on everyone else.

So you are aware, I am not able to post in areas marked "Christian only", so there is no point in starting threads there addressing me.

 

[Slibhin]

Passover is coming and I will not be online until the 25th.

 

[Grip Docility]

I never said they were evil, I just don't like them because of the harm they do to Israel and Jews. I'm aware it's not intended, but that doesn't excuse anything. The temple will never be rebuilt until G-d wants it rebuilt and any attempts to do it otherwise will end in disaster. I am not a Zionist because I believe that modern Israel is a secular creation made for secular reasons, and Israel proper will not return until the Messiah arrives.



Everyone is to the left and right of someone, so I find terms like "liberal" to be meaningless.

I don't care how people choose to live their lives, pink haired or otherwise, as long as it doesn't cause harm to others. The problem is the USA is full of people who do care for some reason and are destroying their country in order to "stop them". I don't personally care if the USA collapses, which is likely, except for the effect that will have on everyone else.

So you are aware, I am not able to post in areas marked "Christian only", so there is no point in starting threads there addressing me.

I actually think the thread I made is a loop hole. It's not marked "Christian only".

And, I assure you, I agree that the forced Temple stuff is a really BAD IDEA.

I appreciate your honesty and look forward to possible discussion with you in the future! Happy Passover! <3

 

[oikonomia]

I don't think it's great, especially when they follow me being pushy or yelling. By pilfer I mean trying to convince Jews to convert and leave the community.

Would you have had a similar feeling at the time of one of the prophets speaking to Israel?
I mean Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Amos, Elijah, Elisha and other imperfect yet faithful men of God were suspicioned.

Unbelieving Hebrews wanted to stone Moses and get someone to lead them back to Egypt.

The Lord Jesus said - Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets. (Luke 16:26)

Maybe you reject their preaching with a similar kind of mistrust that they did not have Israel's interests at heart.

 

[Yusuphhai]

Passover of Kehillat Beijing in 2023

 

[Slibhin]

I actually think the thread I made is a loop hole. It's not marked "Christian only".

And, I assure you, I agree that the forced Temple stuff is a really BAD IDEA.

I appreciate your honesty and look forward to possible discussion with you in the future! Happy Passover! <3

No. There is no option for me to even reply if I wanted to.

 

[Slibhin]

Would you have had a similar feeling at the time of one of the prophets speaking to Israel?
I mean Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Amos, Elijah, Elisha and other imperfect yet faithful men of God were suspicioned.

Unbelieving Hebrews wanted to stone Moses and get someone to lead them back to Egypt.

The Lord Jesus said - Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets. (Luke 16:26)

Maybe you reject their preaching with a similar kind of mistrust that they have do not Israel's interests at heart.

Here's the difference... I believe in the Tanakh and those individuals are actual prophets sent by HaShem. I don't believe in Jesus therefore I don't care what he said. The "New" Testament teaches things that I believe directly contradict the Torah, therefore no religious Jew can accept what it says.

 

[oikonomia]

Here's the difference... I believe in the Tanakh and those individuals are actual prophets sent by HaShem. I don't believe in Jesus therefore I don't care what he said. The "New" Testament teaches things that I believe directly contradict the Torah, therefore no religious Jew can accept what it says.

But religious Jews sometimes rejected the prophets.
The prophet Isaiah complains to God "Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of Jehovah been revealed?" (Isa. 53:1)

That is to say in essence "we the prophets have faithfully spoken. But who of Israel has believed?"
Other similar words the prophets spoke about at least some of the religious Jews.

Are you saying had you been there you never would have been one of the unbelieving religious Jews?
That kind of confidence that 100% of the time you, a religious Jew, would have believed every prophet God sent with no exception.

 

[oikonomia]

The "New" Testament teaches things that I believe directly contradict the Torah, therefore no religious Jew can accept what it says.

Slibin could you give me, let's say, your two topmost contradictions the New Testament teaches from the Torah?
What would you say are your two biggest examples? Don't save them for latter. I'd like to know them up front.

 

[Slibhin]

But religious Jews sometimes rejected the prophets.
The prophet Isaiah complains to God "Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of Jehovah been revealed?" (Isa. 53:1)

That is to say in essence "we the prophets have faithfully spoken. But who of Israel has believed?"
Other similar words the prophets spoke about at least some of the religious Jews.

Are you saying had you been there you never would have been one of the unbelieving religious Jews?
That kind of confidence that 100% of the time you, a religious Jew, would have believed every prophet God sent with no exception.

"Unbelieving religious Jew" is a contradiction, like calling someone an honourable liar.

How on earth am I supposed to speculate on what I may have done over 2700 years ago? A completely different world and culture from that of today, where I would have grown up and been raised totally different. I always respond to these kinds of questions by flipping them... how do you know your aren't the one deceived?

Slibin could you give me, let's say, your two topmost contradictions the New Testament teaches from the Torah?
What would you say are your two biggest examples? Don't save them for latter. I'd like to know them up front.

Why don't Jews believe in Jesus

The number one question I always get asked is why we don't accept or believe in Jesus. Here is the answer which I have kept as brief as possible. I am happy to answer any follow up questions asked in good faith. The main reasons we don't accept Jesus as the Messiah is because we don't believe...

www.christianforums.com

Enjoy!

 

[oikonomia]

"Unbelieving religious Jew" is a contradiction, like calling someone an honourable liar.

Honourable Jews did have lapses of unbelief or disobedience. For example David.
He did not stop being Jew when he stole a man's wife and arranged to have him murdered.

The offerings like the consecration offering, sin offering, trespass offering, meal offering, etc were given by God to
Jews. He made provision for their inevitable lapses of honourability.

A Jew was still a Jew on the Day of Atonement.
Must run to something now. Maybe I can chat more latter today.

 

[oikonomia]

How on earth am I supposed to speculate on what I may have done over 2700 years ago?

Prayer with a openess and willingness to be changed by God is how I overcame this.
God never grows old. He is fresh every morning. He is divine and eternal life - uncreated and never aging.

He gave us evidence of His ability to have transcendent knowing of time.
The life of Joseph in Genesis is one of the best places in the Torah to see this.

Joseph's brothers hated him because of his dream from God. Even his father Jacob was annoyed.
It was that very enmity that his brothers held which caused the fulfillment of the dream to come true.

How sovereign and transcendent God was in fulfilling His purpose have Joseph ruler over Egypt and save
the very lives of his family. Are you familiar with the account of Joseph's betrayal, imprisonment, and rising to
save the world then and his family? It all started with their resentment for his words about his dream.

I think it is a prophetic window into what would happen to the Messiah, hated by His brothers for His teaching.
Time will tell.

A completely different world and culture from that of today, where I would have grown up and been raised totally different. I always respond to these kinds of questions by flipping them... how do you know your aren't the one deceived?

You may know that the Jews contemporary to Jesus's earthly ministry were asked who they thought He was.
To some He sounded like Jeremiah.
To others He sounded like one of the prophets of centuries gone by.

He asked His disciples, saying, Who do men say that the Son of Man is?
And they said, Some, John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets. (Matt. 16:15b,16)

I know you don't care what Jesus said. But it is interesting that those who heard Him say He sounded not different from
one of the great prophets. So many of the things the New Testament Gospels taught from the mouth of Jesus
were reminiscient of major prophets. Mind you they were not always welcomed warmly.

 

[Grip Docility]

No. There is no option for me to even reply if I wanted to.

Please give me time... I will work on this.

 

[oikonomia]

The number one question I always get asked is why we don't accept or believe in Jesus. Here is the answer which I have kept as brief as possible. I am happy to answer any follow up questions asked in good faith.

The main reasons we don't accept Jesus as the Messiah is because we don't believe he fulfills the requirements.

This is an issue with timing. The Isrealites were expecting Moses to immediately lead them out of Egypt.
They grumbled vehemently when Pharoah didn't respond right away. After ten plagues the promise
was actualized.

It could be that some of the fulfillments you expect come not as soon as you wished like the skeptical initial doubtors
of Moses.

And they came upon Moses and Aaron, who were standing there to meet them when they came forth from Pharaoh.
And they said to them, Jehovah look upon you and judge, because you have made us odious in the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants so as to put a sword in their hand to kill us. (Exodus 5:20-21)

Latter they complained that Moses brought them into the wilderness to die of thirst.
Latter they doubted again that Moses had not yet brought them into a promised land.
Latter they grew bored of God's appearing on Mt. Sinai and wondered what happened to Moses.
Latter they replaced thier faith in Yahweh for a golden calf idol.
Latter they did not trust God to defeat the Canaanites and wanted to turn back.

The history if Israel testifies that often they expected something prematurely and rebelled.

From the original multitude that were saved out of Egypt only Joshua and Caleb remained.
Those who witnessed so much of God's miraculous deliverance died wandering in the wilderness for forty years.
Even Moses himself was disciplined and allowed only to see the land yet not enter in.

So sometimes Jews gave out because they inwardly were not ready for God to complete His promise.

I am reminded of Isaiah's prophecy of what Israel will eventually rejoice in with the world.

And on this mountain He will swallow up / The covering that covers up all the peoples, / Even the veil that veils all the nations.

He will swallow up death forever; / And the Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces; / And the reproach of His people He will remove from all the earth; / For Jehovah has spoken.

And it will be said in that day, / Here, this is our God, / For whom we have waited that He may save us. / This is Jehovah, for whom we have waited; / Let us be glad and rejoice in His salvation. (Isaiah 25:7-9)

 

[oikonomia]

5. G-d calls human sacrifice an abomination in Deuteronomy 12:31, and also condemns it harshly in Jeremiah 19:4 - 5. In addition, G-d told Moses in Exodus 32 that a person cannot be punished or pay for the sins of another. Deuteronomy 24:16 restates this very clearly. We believe that G-d does not change or reverse himself, so Jesus "dying for our sins" violate this clear declaration by HaShem.

Enjoy!

Before I study this #5 I would ask Slibhin of her thoughts in a question about this prophecy of Isaiah.

Isaiah 25;7,8 -

And on this mountain He will swallow up / The covering that covers up all the peoples, / Even the veil that veils all the nations.
He will swallow up death forever; / And the Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces; / And the reproach of His people He will remove from all the earth; / For Jehovah has spoken.

When Jewish Messiah does come what do you think He will do to demonstrate that He has the power and authority to
"swallow up death forever?"

"Human sacrifice" that it is an abomination to God. (Deut. 12:31; Jer. 19:4-5)

Then the theory that Israel is the suffering servant who bore the chastizement for the sins of anyone you must not believe?

Isaiah 53:5-7

But He was wounded because of our transgressions; / He was crushed because of our iniquities; / The chastening for our peace was upon Him, / And by His stripes we have been healed.
We all like sheep have gone astray; / Each of us has turned to his own way, / And Jehovah has caused the iniquity of us all / To fall on Him.
He was oppressed, and it was He who was afflicted, / Yet He did not open His mouth; / Like a lamb that is led to the slaughter / And like a sheep that is dumb before its shearers, / So He did not open His mouth.

I have heard Jews say Isaiah's Suffering Servant refers to the nation of Israel who has so sorely suffered.
But would this be an abominable interpretation that Israel "caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him?"

This Suffering Servant made Himself an offering for sin.
No one offered this Suffering Servant as an sacrifice. Rather He willingly offered Himself.
When He makes Himself an offering for sin, (v. 10b)

Also rather than this Servant making Himself an offering for sin being abominable to God, God was pleased and vindicated
the act.

But Jehovah was pleased to crush Him, to afflict Him with grief. / When He makes Himself an offering for sin, / He will see a seed, He will extend His days, / And the pleasure of Jehovah will prosper in His hand.
He will see the fruit of the travail of His soul, / And He will be satisfied; / By the knowledge of Him, the righteous One, My Servant, will make the many righteous, / And He will bear their iniquities. (vs. 10,11)

Slibhin, So you would utterly reject the interpretation that the Suffering Servant who made Himself an offering for sin
was possibly pleasing to God and could not possibly refer to the nation of Israel ?

Then who do you think the prophecy of the Suffering Servant lead as a dumb lamb to the slaughter to make intercession for
sinners is? Is He as Person to come in the future perhaps?

Because He poured out His life unto death / And was numbered with the transgressors, / Yet He alone bore the sin of many / And interceded for the transgressors. (vs. 12b)

Jesus from the cross however made intercession - (do not shut your eyes now)

And when they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and one on the left.
And Jesus said, Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing. And dividing His garments, they cast lots. Lk 23:33,34

 

[Grip Docility]

this isn't your quote, but I dropped a quote to catch up. paraphrasing your earlier words... Human Sacrifice is an abomination to G-d...

Hold the phone, correct! However... I know you think its a stupid Goy idea, but.... What if G-d actually proved that He would rather Sacrifice Himself, than sacrifice another? You are the one that is engaging dialogue... so can of worms opened.

What if I promised you that I can prove that God can be in two places at once, in the Tanakh... would you take me up on that? The "Physical Manifestation of G-d", on earth, as the invisible Essence of G-d in Heaven is doing something... all at the same time, in the Tanakh.

Will you test my understanding of the Tanakh, at the very least?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I've been aware of this forum for quite a while because my Christian sister in law uses it. I held off on joining for numerous reasons but now I have decided to stop by and post some rambling.

I just spent a couple of years on several Christian forums, mostly American Evangelicals, and have come away with all kinds of new insights and opinions. Most of them are negative, but educational none the less. I'm working on an essay about my experience with these groups that I may have published and thought I would share my thoughts here over a series of posts to see what people think. Because this forum is pretty diverse I am hoping to get some diverse opinions as well.

About me:

I'm an Orthodox Jew
I'm a widow (yes at 27 years old)
I was born in Israel, raised in Ireland
I work as a multimedia editor
I was once a professional model
I was married to a Christian husband (I don't recommend interfaith marriages)

Welcome to CF! I'm sure your essay will be enlightening when it's publishing.

 

[Slibhin]

Prayer with a openess and willingness to be changed by God is how I overcame this.
God never grows old. He is fresh every morning. He is divine and eternal life - uncreated and never aging.

He gave us evidence of His ability to have transcendent knowing of time.
The life of Joseph in Genesis is one of the best places in the Torah to see this.

Joseph's brothers hated him because of his dream from God. Even his father Jacob was annoyed.
It was that very enmity that his brothers held which caused the fulfillment of the dream to come true.

How sovereign and transcendent God was in fulfilling His purpose have Joseph ruler over Egypt and save
the very lives of his family. Are you familiar with the account of Joseph's betrayal, imprisonment, and rising to
save the world then and his family? It all started with their resentment for his words about his dream.

I think it is a prophetic window into what would happen to the Messiah, hated by His brothers for His teaching.
Time will tell.

You may know that the Jews contemporary to Jesus's earthly ministry were asked who they thought He was.
To some He sounded like Jeremiah.
To others He sounded like one of the prophets of centuries gone by.

He asked His disciples, saying, Who do men say that the Son of Man is?
And they said, Some, John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets. (Matt. 16:15b,16)

I know you don't care what Jesus said. But it is interesting that those who heard Him say He sounded not different from
one of the great prophets. So many of the things the New Testament Gospels taught from the mouth of Jesus
were reminiscient of major prophets. Mind you they were not always welcomed warmly.

G-d does not beam special knowledge and revelations into people's heads. I can talk to 20 people and get 20 different comments that all disagree with each other while each claiming G-d told them.

You are not a prophet and neither am I.

This is an issue with timing. The Isrealites were expecting Moses to immediately lead them out of Egypt.
They grumbled vehemently when Pharoah didn't respond right away. After ten plagues the promise
was actualized.

It could be that some of the fulfillments you expect come not as soon as you wished like the skeptical initial doubtors
of Moses.

And they came upon Moses and Aaron, who were standing there to meet them when they came forth from Pharaoh.
And they said to them, Jehovah look upon you and judge, because you have made us odious in the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants so as to put a sword in their hand to kill us. (Exodus 5:20-21)

Latter they complained that Moses brought them into the wilderness to die of thirst.
Latter they doubted again that Moses had not yet brought them into a promised land.
Latter they grew bored of God's appearing on Mt. Sinai and wondered what happened to Moses.
Latter they replaced thier faith in Yahweh for a golden calf idol.
Latter they did not trust God to defeat the Canaanites and wanted to turn back.

The history if Israel testifies that often they expected something prematurely and rebelled.

From the original multitude that were saved out of Egypt only Joshua and Caleb remained.
Those who witnessed so much of God's miraculous deliverance died wandering in the wilderness for forty years.
Even Moses himself was disciplined and allowed only to see the land yet not enter in.

So sometimes Jews gave out because they inwardly were not ready for God to complete His promise.

I am reminded of Isaiah's prophecy of what Israel will eventually rejoice in with the world.

And on this mountain He will swallow up / The covering that covers up all the peoples, / Even the veil that veils all the nations.

He will swallow up death forever; / And the Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces; / And the reproach of His people He will remove from all the earth; / For Jehovah has spoken.

And it will be said in that day, / Here, this is our God, / For whom we have waited that He may save us. / This is Jehovah, for whom we have waited; / Let us be glad and rejoice in His salvation. (Isaiah 25:7-9)

Have you even read Exodus? The reason they didn't go straight to Israel was as punishment for their rebellion, as HaShem decreed no one living from their generation (with several exceptions) would see the promised land.

Before I study this #5 I would ask Slibhin of her thoughts in a question about this prophecy of Isaiah.

Isaiah 25;7,8 -

And on this mountain He will swallow up / The covering that covers up all the peoples, / Even the veil that veils all the nations.
He will swallow up death forever; / And the Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces; / And the reproach of His people He will remove from all the earth; / For Jehovah has spoken.

When Jewish Messiah does come what do you think He will do to demonstrate that He has the power and authority to
"swallow up death forever?"

"Human sacrifice" that it is an abomination to God. (Deut. 12:31; Jer. 19:4-5)

Then the theory that Israel is the suffering servant who bore the chastizement for the sins of anyone you must not believe?

Isaiah 53:5-7

But He was wounded because of our transgressions; / He was crushed because of our iniquities; / The chastening for our peace was upon Him, / And by His stripes we have been healed.
We all like sheep have gone astray; / Each of us has turned to his own way, / And Jehovah has caused the iniquity of us all / To fall on Him.
He was oppressed, and it was He who was afflicted, / Yet He did not open His mouth; / Like a lamb that is led to the slaughter / And like a sheep that is dumb before its shearers, / So He did not open His mouth.

I have heard Jews say Isaiah's Suffering Servant refers to the nation of Israel who has so sorely suffered.
But would this be an abominable interpretation that Israel "caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him?"

This Suffering Servant made Himself an offering for sin.
No one offered this Suffering Servant as an sacrifice. Rather He willingly offered Himself.
When He makes Himself an offering for sin, (v. 10b)

Also rather than this Servant making Himself an offering for sin being abominable to God, God was pleased and vindicated
the act.

But Jehovah was pleased to crush Him, to afflict Him with grief. / When He makes Himself an offering for sin, / He will see a seed, He will extend His days, / And the pleasure of Jehovah will prosper in His hand.
He will see the fruit of the travail of His soul, / And He will be satisfied; / By the knowledge of Him, the righteous One, My Servant, will make the many righteous, / And He will bear their iniquities. (vs. 10,11)

Slibhin, So you would utterly reject the interpretation that the Suffering Servant who made Himself an offering for sin
was possibly pleasing to God and could not possibly refer to the nation of Israel ?

Then who do you think the prophecy of the Suffering Servant lead as a dumb lamb to the slaughter to make intercession for
sinners is? Is He as Person to come in the future perhaps?

Because He poured out His life unto death / And was numbered with the transgressors, / Yet He alone bore the sin of many / And interceded for the transgressors. (vs. 12b)

Jesus from the cross however made intercession - (do not shut your eyes now)

And when they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and one on the left.
And Jesus said, Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing. And dividing His garments, they cast lots. Lk 23:33,34

The Messiah doesn't have the power to do anything, G-d does. Messiah means "anointed" which is purely a title. He will restore Israel, reunite the Jews, establish world peace and bring knowledge of G-d to the world. The suffering is Israel because the preceding text clearly says so. Israel is referred to as the servant of G-d throughout Isaiah, and until given a good argument for otherwise I have no reason to believe that one verse is somehow different.

The Torah says human sacrifice is an abomination, it doesn't say it is an abomination with exceptions. The Tanakh also says a person cannot assume responsibility for the sins of another.