Observations : Create Your Own God

[ScottA]

You can discuss it here, quite fine (although I´m not sure it would be exactly on-topic in this particular thread).
The thing is: You aren´t discussing, you are posturing as a teacher.

And what have we learned from that? (rhetorical)

Would you like to discuss why there is no need, or how it is a mistake, to create your own god?

 

[MotherFirefly]

Would you like to discuss why there is no need, or how it is a mistake, to create your own god?

Has humanity not already done that?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I don't care if you don't believe it, and I don't think "people should believe anything without" whatever makes you happy.

Well, that's... obviously... not what I said...

So if you don't care if anyone believes your non-justifiable claims (which logically no one should), what's the point of posting?

But you have, and continue to, miss the point: I am not advocating anything of this world - so I am not going to substantiate my comments with anything that is of this world, nor could I.

What you've failed to explain is why your unsubstantiated claim is any different than any other unsubstantiated claim in terms of its truthfulness.

We are talking about another world. Or...we don't have to.

Well, you're talking about "another world". I'm pointing out why no one should take you seriously.

 

[quatona]

Would you like to discuss why there is no need, or how it is a mistake, to create your own god?

Brianne asked for our viewpoints, I responded. If she has further thoughts or questions I´ll be happy to consider them and respond.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

"Substantiated" was your term.

Yes - and?

... you have come to a web forum that is not founded in this world - and you can't seem to grasp that, and you are unwilling to address it on its own terms. If you could grasp that idea, we might actually have a conversation about it, instead of rehashing the things of this world, which do not apply.

I'm well aware that many of ideas discussed here are not based on the real world; I grasp that OK. The forum itself is founded in, and part of, the real world, as are some of the ideas discussed.

What I'm curious about is how and why a particular set of unsubstantiated ideas and beliefs come to be accepted with such apparent certainty - particularly when it must be obvious to most that, for the vast majority, it is question of social & cultural indoctrination, i.e. typically an accident of birth...

 

[faroukfarouk]

I don't think it is something that can be proven. The 'proof' we have for things around us, laws of the universe, are all based upon observations and assumptions that we believe to be true. We have faith that if we jump, we will land. I am not going to pretend I know much, but I understand that we can explain, down to the finite detail, how things 'work', or at least, how we think they work, with numbers and assumptions based on theories based on observations. Man has created these checks and balances, these equations, these theories, in order to make some sense of the world. To give us a sense of 'understanding', even 'control'. To explain the unexplainable.
But in the end, these theories, equations, and numbers were all created by man. Even if it makes sense to what we know as sense, in the assumption that a God exists as we believe him to exist, theories and equations created by man to understand the effects of the univers on man, have no chance of working here.

I have always questioned, wondered, looked to scientific evidence for an explanation to something like God and Heaven and the soul. I have come to an acceptance that it will never happen... I will never be able to use a string of numbers to explain God. We will never be able to observe chemistry, biology, mathematics, physics, forces physical and invisible, or anything else, take those findings and say, without a doubt, because of 'this' leading to 'this', I have concrete evidence of a being similar to God. These fundamentals of science, the theories and laws we have created, are all based on what we can observe. Something created by man, all relating to what we know of ourselves, our planet, our universe, can never give us the answers to something not of this realm.

It is unfortunate, even dissapointing, to have to trade reason and understanding, for faith in something unknown. It makes us vulnerable. Causes us to feel weak, stupid, because we are no longer in control. I understand how hard letting go of wanting to know can be.

You will never find an answer to 'prove God exists'. No one can offer 'proof' to God existing. Anyone who tries, is in a state of denial. Or forgotten what they are even arguing about.
There is no proof. There never will be.
It is faith. It is hope. It is belief.
Only when you give up trying to understand, will you understand.

To put it bluntly, gentlemen:
You are wasting your time.


Disclaimer: it is very entertaining though. Keep going if you enjoy it this much.

It's good to avoid circular arguments. Hebrews 11 says: 'He that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him'.

 

[MotherFirefly]

Personal experience is just that.
It isn't something you can use to 'prove' to someone God exists. No matter how you try, you can never bring someone to understand a unique feeling you have, unless they discover and embrace it themselves.

I feel it is similar to sharing a vivid dream with someone. You can explain it as well as you can, maybe they don't get it, or they may be able to make a nice mental picture in their head, but they will never be able to understand it on the level you do. you experienced it. The same goes if postions were reversed.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Personal experience is just that.
It isn't something you can use to 'prove' to someone God exists. No matter how you try, you can never bring someone to understand a unique feeling you have, unless they discover and embrace it themselves.

I feel it is similar to sharing a vivid dream with someone. You can explain it as well as you can, maybe they don't get it, or they may be able to make a nice mental picture in their head, but they will never be able to understand it on the level you do. you experienced it. The same goes if postions were reversed.

People need to read the Word of God for themselves, and we trust the true and living God will reveal Himself to them as the Saviour of sinners. It's not something that can be manufactured.

 

[MotherFirefly]

People need to read the Word of God for themselves, and we trust the true and living God will reveal Himself to them as the Saviour of sinners. It's not something that can be manufactured.

Yes.

 

[ScottA]

Has humanity not already done that?

Absolutely, but it/we continue to make the same mistake of creating our own gods.

 

[ScottA]

So if you don't care if anyone believes your non-justifiable claims (which logically no one should), what's the point of posting?

I am pressing on for the prize that awaits those who seek God with all their heart, mind, and energy.

What you've failed to explain is why your unsubstantiated claim is any different than any other unsubstantiated claim in terms of its truthfulness.

I have no need to substantiate to those who already see God in everything. So, then, my efforts are only a failure where failure is predetermined. And if you do not like those terms, only you can press into the matter and overcome.

Well, you're talking about "another world". I'm pointing out why no one should take you seriously.

So, then, because you have intended to trip those who have been called and are close to the finish line, you shall suffer the wrath of God.

 

[ScottA]

Yes - and?

To "substantiate", is a mute point. And if you could understand that, you could move passed it. There is no need to substantiate what is already evident to those who are called.

I'm well aware that many of ideas discussed here are not based on the real world; I grasp that OK. The forum itself is founded in, and part of, the real world, as are some of the ideas discussed.

You fail to see that the world suffers on every front, incapable of self-rescue...and that God has placed His Light upon a hill, and those who see it come.

What I'm curious about is how and why a particular set of unsubstantiated ideas and beliefs come to be accepted with such apparent certainty - particularly when it must be obvious to most that, for the vast majority, it is question of social & cultural indoctrination, i.e. typically an accident of birth...

It is because we have seen God, whom supersedes every human component. Those things become nothing, and pass away.

When a person comes to know that there is another life within reach, that does not pass away - the contest is over. But you root for the loosing side, that passes away.

 

[Noxot]

if we could describe reality with a few words then how could it be the truth? picking a few bits of reality to use is like making a snowball from snow, then you decide if you put a rock in it and who you shall throw it at. others play a different game. they work together and make a snowman. hey, whatever games children wanna play, as long as you are something indescribable.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I am pressing on for the prize that awaits those who seek God with all their heart, mind, and energy.

But not with their brains apparently, as believing in things without evidence is ridiculously illogical. Which is something you just don't seem to understand.

So about these magic beans I have... Interested? I mean, they're magic and all...

I have no need to substantiate to those who already see God in everything. So, then, my efforts are only a failure where failure is predetermined. And if you do not like those terms, only you can press into the matter and overcome.

If someone sees a god, then they're already a theist, and therefore doesn't need you to tell them there's a god. Non theists are the ones that don't see a god at all, and must rely on evidence to believe anything. So if you're really just preaching to the choir, are you really doing anything productive?

So, then, because you have intended to trip those who have been called and are close to the finish line, you shall suffer the wrath of God.

Once again... not scared of things I don't believe in. I don't know why you're not getting this...

Tell me, are you scared of the wrath of Quetzalcohuātl?

 

[ScottA]

But not with their brains apparently, as believing in things without evidence is ridiculously illogical. Which is something you just don't seem to understand.

So about these magic beans I have... Interested? I mean, they're magic and all...

I said "mind." Stop being so cheeky and pay attention.

And you still don't get it. I repeat: It doesn't work that way. That works within the world you are accustom to, but that is not what we are talking about. If it were the same, the same methods would apply - but they are not the same, and so they do not apply. Is that so hard to understand?

If someone sees a god, then they're already a theist, and therefore doesn't need you to tell them there's a god. Non theists are the ones that don't see a god at all, and must rely on evidence to believe anything. So if you're really just preaching to the choir, are you really doing anything productive?

I am well aware. But I am not preaching to you or the choir: I am salt and light to those who have eyes to see that light - I am a signpost, a Helper along the way. If you do not see that light in what I say, then the signpost and message is not meant for you.

Once again... not scared of things I don't believe in. I don't know why you're not getting this...

Tell me, are you scared of the wrath of Quetzalcohuātl?

If it has been of no insight to you, kindly disregard.

 

[quatona]

Personal experience is just that.
It isn't something you can use to 'prove' to someone God exists. No matter how you try, you can never bring someone to understand a unique feeling you have, unless they discover and embrace it themselves.

The feelings are not in doubt.

I feel it is similar to sharing a vivid dream with someone. You can explain it as well as you can, maybe they don't get it, or they may be able to make a nice mental picture in their head, but they will never be able to understand it on the level you do. you experienced it.

The question, however, is: Do those feelings and experiences actually point to something outside yourself?

Think synaesthesists (just so to avoid potentially insulting analogies like schizophrenia, multiple personalities etc.): Are we assuming that their feelings point to an externally reality that is not accessible to us ordinary mortals?

 

[ScottA]

Are we assuming that their feelings point to an externally reality that is not accessible to us ordinary mortals?

Good question. Technically speaking, it is internal rather than external...but the idea is similar, and perhaps easier to understand from this perspective. And it is our portion of the population down through all of history, that is the proof - not as empirical evidence, but as light shining into darkness. It may not be understood or received, but it/we are unavoidably evident.

But it is not inaccessible. Before you is life and death (those are the terms), and God has instructed us to choose life, and made the choice available to all.

 

[quatona]

Good question.

Thank you! Getting this compliment from an unquestionable expert such as you makes me incredibly proud!

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I said "mind." Stop being so cheeky and pay attention.

I see what you've written, but what you've written is nonsensical. For people to make logical decisions about what is true, it is necessary to use your brain to obtain and evaluate evidence in order to determine that something is true or not, especially for something like a god claim. Because if you don't, then you're just arbitrarily deciding truth, and that is crazy pants illogical.

And you still don't get it. I repeat: It doesn't work that way. That works within the world you are accustom to, but that is not what we are talking about. If it were the same, the same methods would apply - but they are not the same, and so they do not apply. Is that so hard to understand?

What I get is that, and I repeat, you have shown no way to substantiate your claims, which makes them completely ignorable. What I also get is that you've failed to address this in any way. Your saying that there's some mystical way to judge claims that is completely unlike the only way we logically can judge claims is itself wholly unsubstantiated. You're acting in the exact same way as a snake oil salesman that insists "Trust me, I know what I'm talking about", without giving evidence why you should be trusted.

I am well aware. But I am not preaching to you or the choir: I am salt and light to those who have eyes to see that light - I am a signpost, a Helper along the way. If you do not see that light in what I say, then the signpost and message is not meant for you.

So you're not talking to theists, who already believe. And you're not talking to non theists who understand the necessity of evidence in determining claims, since they'll never believe without evidence. So you're apparently only talking to (although preying on sounds more accurate) non theists who don't understand the necessity of evidence. It's a good thing I'm around to keep pointing out the necessity of evidence, huh?

If it has been of no insight to you, kindly disregard.

There's no reason to believe there's any insight to be had...

And you know, these magic beans might not be here for very long. You sure you don't want them? They are magical. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about...

 

[ScottA]

I see what you've written, but what you've written is nonsensical. For people to make logical decisions about what is true, it is necessary to use your brain to obtain and evaluate evidence in order to determine that something is true or not, especially for something like a god claim. Because if you don't, then you're just arbitrarily deciding truth, and that is crazy pants illogical.

That works, if you don't mind staying within the prison of your own little world.

What I get is that, and I repeat, you have shown no way to substantiate your claims, which makes them completely ignorable. What I also get is that you've failed to address this in any way. Your saying that there's some mystical way to judge claims that is completely unlike the only way we logically can judge claims is itself wholly unsubstantiated. You're acting in the exact same way as a snake oil salesman that insists "Trust me, I know what I'm talking about", without giving evidence why you should be trusted.

Okay, so you don't have the ability to comprehend different terms and evidence for different applications. Got it.

So you're not talking to theists, who already believe. And you're not talking to non theists who understand the necessity of evidence in determining claims, since they'll never believe without evidence. So you're apparently only talking to (although preying on sounds more accurate) non theists who don't understand the necessity of evidence. It's a good thing I'm around to keep pointing out the necessity of evidence, huh?

Throwing our evidence out of your court, accomplishes nothing. But it does demonstrate where you are coming from.

There's no reason to believe there's any insight to be had...

And you know, these magic beans might not be here for very long. You sure you don't want them? They are magical. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about...

And...so...none of this applies to you.

Like I say: kindly disregard.