How many Gentiles and Samaritans could have been saved if Jesus would have sent some disciples there?

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John Mullally

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It really won’t be applied if they never hear the gospel like those in Matthew 10.
In Matthew 28:18-20 after His resurrection and the start of the New Covenant, Jesus commands the disciples to preach the gospel throughout the world. It's not a coincidence that ministry is commanded to go world-wide after the resurrection (John 12:32). Also post resurrection (Mark 16:15-16), Jesus stipulates the fate of those who believe the gospel and those who don't believe the gospel. It can be argued that He never addresses those who never hear the gospel. So I'm not taking a position on that particular corner case that you are interested in.
 
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It's more than just Billy Graham and John 3.16. There is also 1 Timothy 2:4 that tells us that God desires that all people be saved. And it really it is all people, not all types of people, He wants saved. 1 Timothy 4.:10, tells us that God is the Savior of all people. We know that God is not the Savior of those He doesn't want saved.

That is after the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11).

Both TS and me are making the point that, at Jesus first coming, he was only coming for his people, which are Israelites (Matthew 1:21, Matthew 15:24, Ephesians 2:11-12)
 
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In Matthew 28:18-20 after His resurrection and the start of the New Covenant, Jesus commands the disciples to preach the gospel throughout the world. It's not a coincidence that ministry is commanded to go world-wide after the resurrection (John 12:32). Also post resurrection (Mark 16:15-16), Jesus stipulates the fate of those who believe the gospel and those who don't believe the gospel. It can be argued that He never addresses those who never hear the gospel. So I'm not taking a position on that particular corner case that you are interested in.
Matthew 10 happened well before Matthew 28. And even then, it would still take quite some time for anyone got to the Gentiles, possibly three years. How many people died without hearing the gospel during that period?
 
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John Mullally

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In Matthew 28:18-20 after His resurrection and the start of the New Covenant, Jesus commands the disciples to preach the gospel throughout the world. It's not a coincidence that ministry is commanded to go world-wide after the resurrection (John 12:32). Also post resurrection (Mark 16:15-16), Jesus stipulates the fate of those who believe the gospel and those who don't believe the gospel. It can be argued that He never addresses those who never hear the gospel. So I'm not taking a position on that particular corner case that you are interested in.
Matthew 10 happened well before Matthew 28. And even then, it would still take quite some time for anyone got to the Gentiles, possibly three years. How many people died without hearing the gospel during that period?
The Gospel did not go to the Gentiles till Acts 10. I am not conceding that was because God chose to damn the Gentiles till that time - reference the underlined text I already stated.
 
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Hammster

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The Gospel did not go to the Gentiles till Acts 10. I am not conceding that was because God chose to damn the Gentiles till that time - reference the underlined text I already stated.
You can not concede all you want. The fact is that Jesus commanded them not to go to the Gentiles. This means that many died without hearing the gospel.
 
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Josheb

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I know. How many died without hearing the gospel because nobody was sent?
I do not believe anyone has not heard the gospel. I, therefore, do not believe hearing the gospel is dependent upon someone being sent. I also, therefore, believe the assertion a person cannot hear the gospel or that receipt of the gospel is solely dependent upon someone hearing someone sent is a misuse of verses like Romans 10:14-15. Those words were written by the exact same author who also said, "

Romans 1:18-20
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Romans 1 and Romans 10 cannot be made to contradict each other. No one is without excuse, not even those who did not specifically have someone specifically sent to them specifically.

What is more challenging to our soteriological sensibilities is the premise God would actively prevent someone from understanding and repenting - and therefore actively prevent a person from His gift of salvation. A correct Theology, Christology, and hamartiology are all also necessary for a correct soteriology. All have sinned and fall short of God's glory, we have all gone astray and there is no one who does God or pursues God salvifically. Because of that condition we are incapable of salving ourselves from the sin that kills, enslaves, and condemns. If God does not act then ALL would be lost. God is not being harsh (as some anthropomorphically imagine such a thing on God) when he does nothing. There isn't a person among us who does not take out the trash when it begins to stink. That does not mean we don't love the trash. In that context love is irrelevant and appeals to love (or mercy) are red herring appeals to emotion, not reason. What is amazing is that God saw fit to save anyone.

I will also suggest - despite what I just posted - sin is irrelevant. Jesus was foreknown prior to the creation of the world as the sinless, perfect, blemish-free sacrifice. He and he alone is the resurrection and the life by which no one can come to God - and there has never been a fraction of a moment in creation when that has not been the case. He has always been the resurrection. This is evident in the fact humans were made mortal and the tree of life was set in Eden (long before any sin ever occurred. From the beginning it was appointed for man to die once and face judgment. Jesus has always been the first fruit of many, and that many was always going to be a minority of the "all." Salvation is not a contingency plan and God is NOT dependent upon the existence of sin for His will, plan, and purpose to be accomplished. That Adam sinned and brought sin into the world did not change the Creator's divine purpose for creation one bit. There was always going to be "trash" to be discarded.

Folks often don't even venture to think about this. If, for example, a cow happened to be walking along a narrow trail on a mountainside 3,000 meters about the ground below and a misstep caused the cow to plummet..... would the cow die? Or where the laws of creation so radically different that a cow (or a person) could and would survive a 3,000 meter fall to the solid immoveable, rock-hard surface below? If the answer is, "Yes, that cow would definitely die," then there was death in the world before sin entered it and Romans 5 should be understood accordingly. What then would happen to the cow's now-dead carcass? Would it sit there as a dead carcass for all eternity, or would there be bugs to devour it? Would it decay and rot, or would nothing happen to it, once dead? For some never-stated reason people sometime imagine an Eden so idylic no one ever stubbed their toe, got an accidental cut, or might never have suffered a death due to "natural" consequences that have nothing to do with sin.

  • If a person dies physically, he goes before to face judgment.
  • If a person dies dead physically while dead in sin he faces judgment in a state of already-existing condemnation.
  • If a person dies physically also being dead in sin but also dies dead in Christ, then there is no condemnation, and he faces judgment.

Dying is not the problem. Dying dead and not dying alive is the problem, and no one is without excuse.

Romans 2:14-16
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


Everyone has heard the gospel one way or another and, therefore, everyone has had an opportunity to respond.

Galatians 3:8
The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham........

The gospel was preached to Abraham. God did that. We do not know how, exactly, but we do know it was preached to him. We also know David understood something of the resurrection and did so in a time when the prevailing view in Judaism as nihilistic.

Acts 2:30-31
Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
I know. How many died without hearing the gospel because nobody was sent?
It really won’t be applied if they never hear the gospel like those in Matthew 10.
No one is without excuse. Scriptures pertaining to the necessity of preaching have context and should not be over-generalized.
 
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Hammster

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I do not believe anyone has not heard the gospel. I, therefore, do not believe hearing the gospel is dependent upon someone being sent. I also, therefore, believe the assertion a person cannot hear the gospel or that receipt of the gospel is solely dependent upon someone hearing someone sent is a misuse of verses like Romans 10:14-15. Those words were written by the exact same author who also said, "

Romans 1:18-20
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Romans 1 and Romans 10 cannot be made to contradict each other. No one is without excuse, not even those who did not specifically have someone specifically sent to them specifically.

What is more challenging to our soteriological sensibilities is the premise God would actively prevent someone from understanding and repenting - and therefore actively prevent a person from His gift of salvation. A correct Theology, Christology, and hamartiology are all also necessary for a correct soteriology. All have sinned and fall short of God's glory, we have all gone astray and there is no one who does God or pursues God salvifically. Because of that condition we are incapable of salving ourselves from the sin that kills, enslaves, and condemns. If God does not act then ALL would be lost. God is not being harsh (as some anthropomorphically imagine such a thing on God) when he does nothing. There isn't a person among us who does not take out the trash when it begins to stink. That does not mean we don't love the trash. In that context love is irrelevant and appeals to love (or mercy) are red herring appeals to emotion, not reason. What is amazing is that God saw fit to save anyone.

I will also suggest - despite what I just posted - sin is irrelevant. Jesus was foreknown prior to the creation of the world as the sinless, perfect, blemish-free sacrifice. He and he alone is the resurrection and the life by which no one can come to God - and there has never been a fraction of a moment in creation when that has not been the case. He has always been the resurrection. This is evident in the fact humans were made mortal and the tree of life was set in Eden (long before any sin ever occurred. From the beginning it was appointed for man to die once and face judgment. Jesus has always been the first fruit of many, and that many was always going to be a minority of the "all." Salvation is not a contingency plan and God is NOT dependent upon the existence of sin for His will, plan, and purpose to be accomplished. That Adam sinned and brought sin into the world did not change the Creator's divine purpose for creation one bit. There was always going to be "trash" to be discarded.

Folks often don't even venture to think about this. If, for example, a cow happened to be walking along a narrow trail on a mountainside 3,000 meters about the ground below and a misstep caused the cow to plummet..... would the cow die? Or where the laws of creation so radically different that a cow (or a person) could and would survive a 3,000 meter fall to the solid immoveable, rock-hard surface below? If the answer is, "Yes, that cow would definitely die," then there was death in the world before sin entered it and Romans 5 should be understood accordingly. What then would happen to the cow's now-dead carcass? Would it sit there as a dead carcass for all eternity, or would there be bugs to devour it? Would it decay and rot, or would nothing happen to it, once dead? For some never-stated reason people sometime imagine an Eden so idylic no one ever stubbed their toe, got an accidental cut, or might never have suffered a death due to "natural" consequences that have nothing to do with sin.

  • If a person dies physically, he goes before to face judgment.
  • If a person dies dead physically while dead in sin he faces judgment in a state of already-existing condemnation.
  • If a person dies physically also being dead in sin but also dies dead in Christ, then there is no condemnation, and he faces judgment.

Dying is not the problem. Dying dead and not dying alive is the problem, and no one is without excuse.

Romans 2:14-16
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


Everyone has heard the gospel one way or another and, therefore, everyone has had an opportunity to respond.

Galatians 3:8
The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham........

The gospel was preached to Abraham. God did that. We do not know how, exactly, but we do know it was preached to him. We also know David understood something of the resurrection and did so in a time when the prevailing view in Judaism as nihilistic.

Acts 2:30-31
Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.


No one is without excuse. Scriptures pertaining to the necessity of preaching have context and should not be over-generalized.
You’ve confused the knowledge of God with the hearing of the gospel. Chapter 1 is the former. Chapter 10 is the latter.
 
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John Mullally

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In Matthew 28:18-20 after His resurrection and the start of the New Covenant, Jesus commands the disciples to preach the gospel throughout the world. It's not a coincidence that ministry is commanded to go world-wide after the resurrection (John 12:32). Also post resurrection (Mark 16:15-16), Jesus stipulates the fate of those who believe the gospel and those who don't believe the gospel. It can be argued that He never addresses those who never hear the gospel. So I'm not taking a position on that particular corner case that you are interested in.
Matthew 10 happened well before Matthew 28. And even then, it would still take quite some time for anyone got to the Gentiles, possibly three years. How many people died without hearing the gospel during that period?
The Gospel did not go to the Gentiles till Acts 10. I am not conceding that was because God chose to damn the Gentiles till that time - reference the underlined text I already stated.
You can not concede all you want.
What is that last line supposed to mean?
 
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Guojing

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Galatians 3:8
The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham........

The gospel was preached to Abraham. God did that. We do not know how, exactly, but we do know it was preached to him.

Actually Genesis 12 onwards made it clear what good news God told Abraham
  1. He will have numerous descendants
  2. Those descendants will become nations.
  3. Thru those descendants, the entire world will be blessed.
  4. Etc etc
That was the gospel preached to Abraham
 
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Josheb

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Actually Genesis 12 onwards made it clear what good news God told Abraham
  1. He will have numerous descendants
  2. Those descendants will become nations.
  3. Thru those descendants, the entire world will be blessed.
  4. Etc etc
That was the gospel preached to Abraham
That assumes what is listed is exhaustive. Paul did not say "a gospel was preached to Abraham;" Paul sated "the gospel was preached to Abraham." Few, if any, of the lists provided in scripture are exhaustive. For example, In Ephesians 4 Paul lists six positions of leadership Christ has gifted the Church (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastors and teachers). That list is not exhaustive, and it is a serious mistake to say those five positions are the ONLY positions Christ has given the body. The same holds true for the list of purposes Paul lists those positions are to help us accomplish. That list is not exhaustive, either. The reason we know these lists aren't exhaustive is because other places provide examples not listed in Ephesians 4.

Aside from knowing he would have numerous descendants, he'd father many nations, and be the vehicle of blessing the entire world, Abraham also knew God had pledge fealty to God (it was the symbols for God that walked through the suzerain covenant in his vision) conditioning that fealty on His death. Abraham also knew it would take a human sacrifice, the sacrifice of a son, the sacrifice of a son of promise, and God would provide the sacrifice. Abe also knew that if his son died God was able to bring him back. Abe also knew the physical land was not the extent of the promise. He knew he was searching for a city of peace made by God, not man. The reason we know Abraham knew more than just the three points listed in Post 532 is because other scripture informs us.

The "Etc etc" of Post 532 proves quite lengthy when all of scripture is considered.
 
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Josheb

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You’ve confused the knowledge of God with the hearing of the gospel.
No, I have not. I'd be happy to explain the misperception if and when that assumption is discarded.
Chapter 1 is the former. Chapter 10 is the latter.
Incorrect, and I can explain how that is not the case if and when that dross is discarded.
 
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Hammster

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No, I have not. I'd be happy to explain the misperception if and when that assumption is discarded.

Incorrect, and I can explain how that is not the case if and when that dross is discarded.
You cannot explain it because it doesn’t exist. The language in both chapters are unambiguous.
 
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That assumes what is listed is exhaustive. Paul did not say "a gospel was preached to Abraham;" Paul sated "the gospel was preached to Abraham." Few, if any, of the lists provided in scripture are exhaustive. For example, In Ephesians 4 Paul lists six positions of leadership Christ has gifted the Church (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastors and teachers). That list is not exhaustive, and it is a serious mistake to say those five positions are the ONLY positions Christ has given the body. The same holds true for the list of purposes Paul lists those positions are to help us accomplish. That list is not exhaustive, either. The reason we know these lists aren't exhaustive is because other places provide examples not listed in Ephesians 4.

Aside from knowing he would have numerous descendants, he'd father many nations, and be the vehicle of blessing the entire world, Abraham also knew God had pledge fealty to God (it was the symbols for God that walked through the suzerain covenant in his vision) conditioning that fealty on His death. Abraham also knew it would take a human sacrifice, the sacrifice of a son, the sacrifice of a son of promise, and God would provide the sacrifice. Abe also knew that if his son died God was able to bring him back. Abe also knew the physical land was not the extent of the promise. He knew he was searching for a city of peace made by God, not man. The reason we know Abraham knew more than just the three points listed in Post 532 is because other scripture informs us.

The "Etc etc" of Post 532 proves quite lengthy when all of scripture is considered.

Abraham does not have to know about the gospel preached to us today in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, in order to have the gospel preached to him.

When Paul said THE good news was preached to him, he is not saying it was THE SAME good news that is valid TODAY, which is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

You added the word SAME into Galatians 3:8 without realizing it.

The only connection Paul is making in Galatians 3 between the good news preached to Abraham, and the good news preached to us today was that:
  • just like Abraham who believed the good news preached to him in Genesis 15:5 and was justified by faith alone, before circumcision (Genesis 15:6, Galatians 3:6, Romans 4:2-3),
  • so are we gentiles today who believed the good news preached to us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 are justified by faith alone, without any works.
 
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