Handwritten Dogmas and the Letter which Kills

daq

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@daq

I go through cycles where information comes at me so fast that I can't keep up with studying it all. I start to forget little avenues of revelation; as they are coming at me so fast. Then there are cycles of drought; where I yearn for something to dive into.

I must be on an up cycle again.

I have folders within folders on this subject, a tremendous amount of evidence from my research:

View attachment 342422


I had abandoned this study; as my brain began to hurt. It was too difficult for me to understand how I couldn't reconcile the overwhelming evidence with the Masoretic Text. As I am just getting started on the huge undertaking of sifting through all of the duplicate Strong's numbers in my The Strong's Deception study; the next step was to lose the niqqud, and study each original Hebrew word in Strongs work. That study directly correlates to what you have presented here; and your presentation has opened my eyes to the potential explanation of why the Masoretic Text is difficult to reconcile with the extensive evidence.

All seems to be converging syncronously.

Birekoth

Sevenfold berakot to you, my friend: when it all clicks, that's on Meshiah and is Meshiah.
But if we do not upload all of the info then how will it ever click and come together?
 
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daq

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As I am just getting started on the huge undertaking of sifting through all of the duplicate Strong's numbers in my The Strong's Deception study; the next step was to lose the niqqud, and study each original Hebrew word in Strongs work. That study directly correlates to what you have presented here; and your presentation has opened my eyes to the potential explanation of why the Masoretic Text is difficult to reconcile with the extensive evidence.

I see that you have another couple hundred numbers to go before you get to בשר, but, (if you don't already know), I suspect you will be in for some surprisingly good news when you get there.

Isaiah 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of [the] one preaching good news, [Exo 16:12, Jhn 6:51] who publishes shalom, bearing the good news of [the] good, [Dt 30:15] who publishes salvation, who says to Tziyon, Your Elohim reigns!

Isaiah 7:14
14 Therefore Adonai himself shall give you a sign, Behold, the almah will conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanu'el.
15 Butter and honey shall he consume, that he may know to refuse the evil, and to choose the good [Dt 30:15, Dt 30:19].

Not only unto us has the good news been preached, but it was also preached unto them, (Heb 4:1-2), and those whose carcasses fell in the desert neither diligently hearkened, nor understood, nor believed it when they heard it.
 
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Gary K

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Yes, that too.



Yes that too. It's about being released from bondage in general.

YHWH's Torah is liberating.

(CLV) Ja 1:25
Now he who peers into the perfect law, that of freedom, and abides, not becoming a forgetful listener, but a doer of the work, this one will be happy in his doing.



No, it was YHWH himself.



Old ceremony? I wouldn't diminish YHWH's eternal word in that way. Return? Do you mean as in repent? YHWH said to keep the Passover forever, and to teach our children to remember what he did for us. Yahshua told us to remember him by it too.

I wouldn't characterize giving honor to YHWH, and Yahshua as some "old ceremony;" and it sure beats giving glory to Ishtar.
I don't understand your comments. Jesus is God, He and His Father are one. Why would you say that they are in conflict on anything? Jesus is the great I AM who talked to Moses out of the burning bush and is therefore the same person who gave the Israelites the Passover ceremony.

Exodus 3: 2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

John 8: 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
 
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Gary K

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"Obvious" appears to be only in the eye of the beholder in this case. I haven't studied the Talmud. You can decide not to believe me if you wish to do so, but that is the truth, whether you receive my testimony concerning myself or not.

However I do know this is truth:

Psalm 12:6 KJV
6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

And I know this is also truth:

Revelation 10:1-3 KJV
1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

And I know this is also truth:

Enoch 93:9-10 (R.H. Charles)
9 And after that in the seventh week shall an apostate generation arise, and many shall be its deeds, and all its deeds shall be apostate.
10 And at its close shall be elected the elect righteous of the eternal plant of righteousness, to receive sevenfold instruction [the Torah] concerning all His creation.
Whether you have read the Talmud or not you are doing the same thing the Talmud teaches saying there are multiple interpretations to each verse. How does that make you any different?

Odd. I didn't know the book of Enoch was considered to be part of the inspired canon of scripture and even then I don't see what you do in the quote.
 
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daq

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Whether you have read the Talmud or not you are doing the same thing the Talmud teaches saying there are multiple interpretations to each verse. How does that make you any different?

Odd. I didn't know the book of Enoch was considered to be part of the inspired canon of scripture and even then I don't see what you do in the quote.

Matthew 16:5-7 ASV
5 And the disciples came to the other side and forgot to take bread.
6 And Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, We took no bread.

Mark 8:14-16 ASV
14 And they forgot to take bread; and they had not in the boat with them more than one loaf.
15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.
16 And they reasoned one with another, saying, We have no bread.

These are surely the same occasion but Matthew hears Pharisees and Sadducees while Mark (Peter) hears Pharisees and Herod. Do you suppose that only one of these texts can be correct and therefore one of them must be wrong? Why do they not both hear and record the same thing at least when it comes to the names in the highlighted portions?

The Spirit divides to each one as necessary and beneficial: there are seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of Elohim, and the Lamb in the midst of the throne has seven horns, and seven stars, and seven eyes, which are the seven eyes of YHWH and the seven Spirits of Elohim sent forth into all His land. And when the Lion roars, the seven thunders utter their voices: are you sure you know who it is you are dealing with when you read the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts? The doctrine is sevenfold, like it or not, believe it or not.
 
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HARK!

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I don't understand your comments. Jesus is God, He and His Father are one. Why would you say that they are in conflict on anything? Jesus is the great I AM who talked to Moses out of the burning bush and is therefore the same person who gave the Israelites the Passover ceremony.


(CLV) Jn 14:24
He who is not loving Me, is not keeping My words. And the word which you are hearing is not Mine, but the Father's Who sends Me.


(CLV) Jn 7:16
Jesus, then, answered them and said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His Who sends Me.

(CLV) Jn 7:17
If anyone should be wanting to be doing His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is of God or I am speaking from Myself.

Yahshua and YHWH are two different persons.

Let's look at what he said in greater context.

(CLV) Jn 10:29
My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and not one is able to be snatching them out of My Father's hand.

(CLV) Jn 10:30
I and the Father, We are one."

Think of it this way: A husband and wife are one flesh; but they have their own individual identities.
 
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Gary K

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Matthew 16:5-7 ASV
5 And the disciples came to the other side and forgot to take bread.
6 And Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, We took no bread.

Mark 8:14-16 ASV
14 And they forgot to take bread; and they had not in the boat with them more than one loaf.
15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.
16 And they reasoned one with another, saying, We have no bread.

These are surely the same occasion but Matthew hears Pharisees and Sadducees while Mark (Peter) hears Pharisees and Herod. Do you suppose that only one of these texts can be correct and therefore one of them must be wrong? Why do they not both hear and record the same thing at least when it comes to the names in the highlighted portions?

The Spirit divides to each one as necessary and beneficial: there are seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of Elohim, and the Lamb in the midst of the throne has seven horns, and seven stars, and seven eyes, which are the seven eyes of YHWH and the seven Spirits of Elohim sent forth into all His land. And when the Lion roars, the seven thunders utter their voices: are you sure you know who it is you are dealing with when you read the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts? The doctrine is sevenfold, like it or not, believe it or not.
Both saw the Pharisees and both saw the enemies of the gospel, How is that multiple interpretations of the same verse? And just how do those two verses contradict each other in substance? How is that even close to your contradiction of Paul's 30 comments referring to our sinful flesh and your contradiction of that belief while you say you believe Paul while disagreeing with everyone who quotes him?
 
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daq

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Both saw the Pharisees and both saw the enemies of the gospel, How is that multiple interpretations of the same verse? And just how do those two verses contradict each other in substance? How is that even close to your contradiction of Paul's 30 comments referring to our sinful flesh and your contradiction of that belief while you say you believe Paul while disagreeing with everyone who quotes him?

More misdirection: I do not disagree with Paul but with those who quote his words and say that they mean what they do not say or mean in the text they have quote. That's a huge difference and I consider the accusation character assassination. Please stop.

Moreover I did not say there was any contradiction in the two passages I just quoted: that's another false insinuation on your part. I makes me feel as though you are not actually reading what is posted, either that or you are simply not understanding the points being made in what is posted.

If you still want to discuss the scripture from the Prophets that I posted in your thread about the original sin doctrine then you would be much better off to quote the post again there and take it back up again in that thread where it I made that post.
 
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Gary K

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More misdirection: I do not disagree with Paul but with those who quote his words and say that they mean what they do not say or mean in the text they have quote. That's a huge difference and I consider the accusation character assassination. Please stop.

Moreover I did not say there was any contradiction in the two passages I just quoted: that's another false insinuation on your part. I makes me feel as though you are not actually reading what is posted, either that or you are simply not understanding the points being made in what is posted.

If you still want to discuss the scripture from the Prophets that I posted in your thread about the original sin doctrine then you would be much better off to quote the post again there and take it back up again in that thread where it I made that post.
OK. I have no issue with that.
 
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daq

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...there are seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of Elohim, and the Lamb in the midst of the throne has seven horns, and seven stars, and seven eyes, which are the seven eyes of YHWH and the seven Spirits of Elohim sent forth into all His land. And when the Lion roars, the seven thunders utter their voices: are you sure you know who it is you are dealing with when you read the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts? The doctrine is sevenfold...

In the following passage Yohanne the Immerser sends two of his talmidim, (disciples), to ask the Master if he is indeed "Ho Erchomenos", (which appears to be a proper noun). And when the two talmidim are called men, in verse twenty, the text says ανδρες, (andres, a plural form of aner), and this is not the same as anthropos, for an aner is a certified man, one who is tried and true, and which is also used for a husband but only when the context speaks of a woman and then mentions her husband, which would be aner.

However during the exchange the Master commands them by the simple word in English translation, "Go", which means depart, go forth, etc., and he commands them to announce to Yohanne the things which he then speaks. This announce or declare is connected to angels and messengers, that is, απαγγελλω, to announce or declare. Then when these two talmidim of Yohanne, tried, tested, certified men, when they depart from the Master to carry out his commands, they are suddenly called αγγελων, which is the same word for a messenger or an angel. While I prefer messenger or messengers in reading the text I am going to throw in angels here to hopefully help drive the point home.

Luke 7:19-24
19 And Yohanne calling unto him two of his talmidim sent them to the Master, saying, Are you Ho Erchomenos, or should we look for another?
20 And when the ανδρες-men were come unto him, they said, Yohanne the Immerser has sent us unto you, saying, Are you Ho Erchomenos, or should we look for another?
21 In that hour he cured many of maladies, and plagues, and evil spirits, and on many of the blind he bestowed sight.
22 And he answered, saying to them, Go, announce to Yohanne the things which you have seen and heard: the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are awakened, to the poor the good news is preached.
23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me!
24 And when the αγγελων-messengers of Yohanne were departed, he began to say unto the multitudes concerning Yohanne, What went did you go out into the wilderness to behold? a reed shaken with the wind?

And the two angels came to Yohanne, and said to him, Thus says the Master:

Go, announce to Yohanne the things which you have seen and heard:

1 The blind see:
2 The lame walk:
3 The lepers are cleansed:
4 The deaf hear:
5 The dead are awakened:
6 To the poor the good news is preached:
7 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me!
 
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Thanks Studyman; but it wasn't the Pharisees who had control of the Temple. It was the Sadducees; but both were teaching the dogma of men.

I would say, at least according to the Words of the Christ of the Bible, that the influence of the Pharisees teaching from the Temple, was the greater influence, at least according to what is actually written in the Testimony.

Matt. 23: CLV(i) 1 Then Jesus speaks to the throngs and to His disciples, 2 saying, "On Moses' seat are seated "the scribes and the Pharisees"." Not the Sadducees.

13 Now woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for "you" are locking the kingdom of the heavens in front of men. For "you" are not entering, neither are "you letting" those entering to enter.

15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are going about the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming one, you are making him more than double a son of Gehenna than you are."

John 12: 42 Howbeit, likewise, of the chiefs also many believe in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not avow it, "lest they" (Chief Priests) may be put out of the synagogue," 43 for they love the glory of men rather than even the glory of God.

The Christ even associated the Pharisees with those who Isaiah rebuked.

Matt. 15: Then, coming to Jesus from Jerusalem are Pharisees and scribes, saying, 2 Wherefore are your disciples transgressing the tradition of the elders?

6 by no means shall he be honoring his father.' And you invalidate the word of God because of your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Ideally Isaiah prophesies "concerning you", saying, 8 This people with their lips is honoring Me, Yet their heart is away at a distance from Me." 9 Yet in vain are they revering Me, "Teaching" for teachings the directions of men."

Clearly, by the Scriptures alone it was the Pharisees who promoted the greater influence in the Temple. The Sadducees were another religious sect who also had influence to "Beware of", but clearly, if a person reads the Scriptures alone, it was the Pharisees who were in charge of the Temple, even to the point of Sadducees and Chief Priests fearing that the Pharisees would put them out of the Temple.

So by Scriptures, Specifically the recorded Words of the Messiah which are many, it was the Pharisees who ran the show, which is why the Christ needed to expose them, and which is how they had the power to murder Him and others who didn't tow their religious line.

But I'm not sharing this with you to "justify" my words or even argue the point, rather to take advantage of an opportunity to share with my brother a concern that I have regarding the specific religious sect being promoted.

I understand that if a man went to other sources, like the Pseudepigrapha, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Targums, the Talmud, the homiletic, exegetic, and apocalyptic midrashim, the Zohar, and the medieval rabbis, they might find a different Truth which changes the clear speaking of the Christ, regarding who wielded the greater influence in Jerusalem and the Temple made of wood and stone which resided there. As though God's Truth cannot be known unless a man first learns a foreign language or embarks on a quest to find and then interpret heretofore hidden Scrolls, not seen by men for Centuries. Much in the same way other religions promote the Philosophy that God's Truth cannot be known unless we adopt the philosophy of Valentinus, or the Council of Nicaea or Calvin or Wesly or Miller of White or Russell or Smith "there is no end" to the writings. I think the Christ of the Bible warns of this very thing, and it is in my heart to make this concern known.

It is written in Ecc. 12: 11 The words of the wise are like goad points, And like imbedded bolts "for the possessors of gathered sayings" They are given by "one shepherd"."

12 Yet furthermore, my son, from adding to these, "be warned"; Of the making of many scrolls "there is no end," And much study is weariness to the flesh." 13 The terminus of the whole matter has been heard:Fear the One, Elohim, and keep His instructions, For this is the whole duty of humanity." 14 For the One, Elohim, shall bring every deed into judgment concerning all that is obscured, Whether good or whether evil."

Duet. 30: 11 For this instruction that I am enjoining on you today, it is neither too difficult for you, nor is it too far off. 12 It is neither in the heavens for you to say: Who shall ascend to the heavens for us and take it for us and announce it to us that we may obey it? 13 Nor is it across the sea for you to say: Who shall cross across the sea for us and take it for us and announce it to us that we may obey it? 14 For the word is exceedingly near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, to obey it.

Matt. 24: 23 Then, if anyone should be saying to you, 'Lo! here is the Christ! (In this religious sect) or 'Here!' (In another religious sect) you should not be believing it." 24 For roused shall be false christs and false prophets, and they shall be giving great signs and miracles, so as to deceive, if possible, even the chosen." 25 Lo! I have declared it to you beforehand. (Duet. 30) 26 If, then, they should say to you, 'Lo! in the wilderness is he!' (At an ancient manmade temple of wood and stone) you may not be coming out' 'Lo! in the storerooms!' (long lost Scrolls hidden from the eyes of men for centuries, found in a cave) you should not be believing it.

" 27 For even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind."

And here we are today, with the Oracles of God in our own homes, in our own minds. Shall I behave in a manner which implies that God, or His Son didn't know there would be English Translations of His Word in my time, that cannot be trusted to show this instruction, when they Spoke Their Words warning of religious men who "Come in His Name"?

Be careful my friend.
 
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HIM

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Nowhere does it say that Yahshua is our Hag Matzot.

The Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sin and in Him is no sin. We are unleavened and also Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us. If we are in the state of unleaveness, our sin being taken away what is the point of the ceremony to purge out the leaven when the reality is the Christ, The text speaks of the leaven of malice and wickedness in context to the fornicator that needs purged for the destruction of the flesh so as to make new lump. A little leaven leavens, affects the whole lump, Church.


I made no such assertion. I we honor YHWH's Passover as he commands; we review the story of that Passover every year; and therefore we know why we honor his Passover.

HAG HAMATZOT is the feast of unleavened bread as you know. The above post that you responded to here shows how Christ fulfilled it. The feast in 1 Corinthians 5:7 is speaking of this not the Passover. Jesus being mentioned as our Passover is being mentioned in passing. The context is the leaveness of sin and how through Christ we are unleavened as a Church. And we are to celebrate (KEEP) this state by keeping it so through Christ unleaveness of sincerty and truth. THIS IS TO BE A CONSTANT STATE IN CHRIST. Not once a year.

Questions: How does one honor the first day of YHWH's continual Hag Matzot without the Pesach? How does one ascertain the day the day of Bikkurim (No not Ishtar!), without recognizing the Pesach? How does one recognize the day of Shavuot without establishing the day of Bikkurim?
The reality is Christ and through Him His Church.
Christ our Passover is sacrifice for us. We the church, the Body of Christ are unleavened through Christ who taketh away the leaveness, sin of this world. The first fruits and the ingathering, witnessing and thereby discipling God's children is to not to end unto the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Being anointed through Christ On that day 3000 were brought unto the Lord, And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple (the reality being Christ), and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


None of this answers any of my questions.
It does please read it again. But we will expound. We must enter through the threshold, Christ Jesus our Passover to be of The Household of God. Therein we receive His Spirit, His Law in our hearts and minds, His Word in our our hearts and mouths, This is what happened on Pentecost, the Shavuot that Israel was celebrating in Acts two. They been unleavened by Christ's sacrifice after Passover. For without shedding of blood there is no remission. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience (who we are) vessels for ministry from dead works to serve the living God?

Manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ. Written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God. Who also hath made us able ministers of the new Covenant. New, for His Spirit is in the heart, thereby His Law in the heart and mind, His Word in our mouths. Not as the old on Tables of Stone and parchment. For the letter killeth, but the Spirit Giveth Life.

Through this the first fruits, Bikkurim were offered up. From 12 to 3000. It was never to stop as they continued daily in one accord breaking of bread from house to house having all things common . In this the ingathering did not cease for Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved


Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Acts 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Acts 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Acts 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Cor 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Cor 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

1Cor 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.



The Passover is not a sin sacrifice. It's the sacrifice of a threshold covenant.
Never said that. Sorry if you misunderstood. Hopefully we will word things better.




So how do you honor any of YHWH's eternal appointed times?

.
In Living through Christ.
 
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Yahudim

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The Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sin and in Him is no sin. We are unleavened and also Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us. If we are in the state of unleaveness, our sin being taken away what is the point of the ceremony to purge out the leaven when the reality is the Christ, The text speaks of the leaven of malice and wickedness in context to the fornicator that needs purged for the destruction of the flesh so as to make new lump. A little leaven leavens, affects the whole lump, Church.



HAG HAMATZOT is the feast of unleavened bread as you know. The above post that you responded to here shows how Christ fulfilled it. The feast in 1 Corinthians 5:7 is speaking of this not the Passover. Jesus being mentioned as our Passover is being mentioned in passing. The context is the leaveness of sin and how through Christ we are unleavened as a Church. And we are to celebrate (KEEP) this state by keeping it so through Christ unleaveness of sincerty and truth. THIS IS TO BE A CONSTANT STATE IN CHRIST. Not once a year.


The reality is Christ and through Him His Church.
Christ our Passover is sacrifice for us. We the church, the Body of Christ are unleavened through Christ who taketh away the leaveness, sin of this world. The first fruits and the ingathering, witnessing and thereby discipling God's children is to not to end unto the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Being anointed through Christ On that day 3000 were brought unto the Lord, And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple (the reality being Christ), and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.



It does please read it again. But we will expound. We must enter through the threshold, Christ Jesus our Passover to be of The Household of God. Therein we receive His Spirit, His Law in our hearts and minds, His Word in our our hearts and mouths, This is what happened on Pentecost, the Shavuot that Israel was celebrating in Acts two. They been unleavened by Christ's sacrifice after Passover. For without shedding of blood there is no remission. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience (who we are) vessels for ministry from dead works to serve the living God? Manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ. Written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God. Who also hath made us able ministers of the new Covenant. New, for His Spirit is in the heart, thereby His Law in the heart and mind, His Word in our mouths. Not as the old on Tables of Stone and parchment. For the letter killeth, but the Spirit Giveth Life. Through this the first fruits, Bikkurim were offered up. From 12 to 3000. It was never to stop as they continued daily in one accord breaking of bread from house to house having all things common . In this the ingathering did not cease for Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved


Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Acts 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Acts 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Acts 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Cor 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Cor 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

1Cor 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.




Never said that. Sorry if you misunderstood. Hopefully we will word things better.





In Living through Christ.
Perhaps we should ask more often, 'how can we be sure?'

Not trying to dispute what was said here, despite not being in agreement. That would be foolish and fruitless. Simply trying to impart why many other sects and denominations among the community of believers have adopted entirely different interpretations based on various textual and contextual methodologies. Sadly, many decisions regarding the interpretation of scripture, made in both academic and religious circles, are based on cultural norms, funding and/or political narratives as much as anything else.

"As of 09 Feb 2024, there are more than 45,000 Christian denominations worldwide, including the Roman Catholic Church, 25 principal forms of Eastern Orthodoxy, numerous varieties of Protestantism, and tiny store-front churches with fewer than 100 members." (1)

"Christianity is the largest religious group in the world, with an estimated 2.3 to 2.6 billion adherents in 2020." (3)

"Some conservative churches that voted to disaffiliate say the denomination has responded by forcing out their pastors and charging them millions to keep their property." (0)

"The number of church buildings in the US is not mentioned in the sources." (2)

This, according to:
christianitytoday.com (0)
wesleyan.edu (1)
thecompletepilgrim.com (2)
en.wikipedia.org (3)
List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia

Almost all of these listed above claim to be led by the Spirit. But when the results of their disparate conclusions are considered by others, whether believing or not, many have come to ask, "By which spirit?"

The short version is that Christian denominations by any metric are Big Business. They have a vested interest in their adherents conforming to their particular belief system and traditions. We have all seen congregations split over the color of carpet. How much more so over the color of their dogma?

Not saying any particular belief system is more or less correct than any other. But this is why some have come to the conclusion that scripture and commentary, taken in context, is much more valuable to the seeker than denominations and dogma. Perhaps choosing one's own beliefs first, is a better way of choosing the congregation to which one should belong. But in this world, most people are born into a church before they become 'born again' in Messiah.

Performing certain mental exercises on dogma and beliefs and then asking different questions in different manners, is a great way to see if they may fit any other possibilities. Such as asking if the Messiah, referring to what is 'fulfilled' in this case, was perhaps not Torah (the 'Law'), but what the Prophets prophesied about the Messiah? There were after all, certain expectations of what the Messiah would be like and what He would do during His ministry and reign. Shouldn't that be thoroughly explored to dispel any hint of doubt by the seeker?

One of the things that turned my way of thinking around, was to study Eastern philosophy and how it affects our understanding of verbal and written communications from a Western perspective. Although it is possible that one's conclusions may not be 'earth shattering', however, it may very well be eye-opening. And it provides a starting point to a journey from what a person had always been taught, to what a person would know. Serious discrepancies between what is taught and what is learned should be rectified - and that will never happen in an unquestioning devotion to tradition.

Another source of revelation is to study ancient writing forms and how they were understood from within the cultural context of the people to whom they were originally intended. For instance, look at the differences between the interpretations of ancient writings (including the survival of those writings) to be found between a conquerors' understanding and that of the conquered. This is an ever evolving field of study, but one worthy of our attention.

The victor writes the history. It is widely accepted that this type of dramatic re-interpretation of ancient writings, events and customs occurred with the expansion of many ancient empires. The Hittite, the Assyrian, the Babylonian and the Greek treatment of ancient cultures and their writings is fairly well documented, but not completely understood. So what befell the many-times enslaved sons of Israel in this regard? Were they not similarly corrupted with the adoption of the traditions and practices of their conquerors? Of course they were. Should that not be thoroughly understood before adhereing to a particular set of beliefs and traditions? Absolutely!

At the time of the Roman diaspora, Judean slaves were so plentiful that the average Roman citizen, resident alien or sojourner within that realm, could purchase a 'Jew' for the price of a loaf of bread. For the next two centuries or more, if a Judean, slave or not, was caught possessing Torah scrolls within the Roman Empire, it was a sentence of death by torture. They were often smeared with pitch, affixed to a pole and burned for garden party illumination and entertainment, no matter their beliefs about Messiah.

During the Roman conquest and the subsequent events of that century, we are also aware of the evolution of dogma within the 'believing' community that resulted in the destruction of many popular writings among the 'believers' by those congregation most closely aligned with the ever-changing policies, perspectives and politics of Rome. We have documentation of the brutal excesses of that era too. Both believers and non-believers, parchment and papyrus, were burned. Attitudes and teachings were 'adjusted' to fit the narrative du jour.

This is how we inherit tradition (dogma). Dogma drives teachings. Perhaps certain views deserve another look; like the possibility that what Messiah 'fulfilled' wasn't what has been decided by those that buried every non-acceptable interpretation and tradition under a pile of roasted parchment, people and pigs.

Considering the stakes, being 'sure' isn't enough. It is written that His people perish for lack of knowledge. Shouldn't that be enough to inspire us to keep seeking and testing? Perhaps, metaphorically speaking, putting all the proverbial eggs in one basket should be questioned. That is all I'm saying. But that is yours to decide.

May you be Blessed,
 
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Studyman

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Perhaps we should ask more often, 'how can we be sure?'

Not trying to dispute what was said here, despite not being in agreement. That would be foolish and fruitless. Simply trying to impart why many other sects and denominations among the community of believers have adopted entirely different interpretations based on various textual and contextual methodologies. Sadly, many decisions regarding the interpretation of scripture, made in both academic and religious circles, are based on cultural norms, funding and/or political narratives as much as anything else.

"As of 09 Feb 2024, there are more than 45,000 Christian denominations worldwide, including the Roman Catholic Church, 25 principal forms of Eastern Orthodoxy, numerous varieties of Protestantism, and tiny store-front churches with fewer than 100 members." (1)

"Christianity is the largest religious group in the world, with an estimated 2.3 to 2.6 billion adherents in 2020." (3)

"Some conservative churches that voted to disaffiliate say the denomination has responded by forcing out their pastors and charging them millions to keep their property." (0)

"The number of church buildings in the US is not mentioned in the sources." (2)

This, according to:
christianitytoday.com (0)
wesleyan.edu (1)
thecompletepilgrim.com (2)
en.wikipedia.org (3)
List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia

Almost all of these listed above claim to be led by the Spirit. But when the results of their disparate conclusions are considered by others, whether believing or not, many have come to ask, "By which spirit?"

The short version is that Christian denominations by any metric are Big Business. They have a vested interest in their adherents conforming to their particular belief system and traditions. We have all seen congregations split over the color of carpet. How much more so over the color of their dogma?

Not saying any particular belief system is more or less correct than any other. But this is why some have come to the conclusion that scripture and commentary, taken in context, is much more valuable to the seeker than denominations and dogma. Perhaps choosing one's own beliefs first, is a better way of choosing the congregation to which one should belong. But in this world, most people are born into a church before they become 'born again' in Messiah.

Performing certain mental exercises on dogma and beliefs and then asking different questions in different manners, is a great way to see if they may fit any other possibilities. Such as asking if the Messiah, referring to what is 'fulfilled' in this case, was perhaps not Torah (the 'Law'), but what the Prophets prophesied about the Messiah? There were after all, certain expectations of what the Messiah would be like and what He would do during His ministry and reign. Shouldn't that be thoroughly explored to dispel any hint of doubt by the seeker?

One of the things that turned my way of thinking around, was to study Eastern philosophy and how it affects our understanding of verbal and written communications from a Western perspective. Although it is possible that one's conclusions may not be 'earth shattering', however, it may very well be eye-opening. And it provides a starting point to a journey from what a person had always been taught, to what a person would know. Serious discrepancies between what is taught and what is learned should be rectified - and that will never happen in an unquestioning devotion to tradition.

Another source of revelation is to study ancient writing forms and how they were understood from within the cultural context of the people to whom they were originally intended. For instance, look at the differences between the interpretations of ancient writings (including the survival of those writings) to be found between a conquerors' understanding and that of the conquered. This is an ever evolving field of study, but one worthy of our attention.

The victor writes the history. It is widely accepted that this type of dramatic re-interpretation of ancient writings, events and customs occurred with the expansion of many ancient empires. The Hittite, the Assyrian, the Babylonian and the Greek treatment of ancient cultures and their writings is fairly well documented, but not completely understood. So what befell the many-times enslaved sons of Israel in this regard? Were they not similarly corrupted with the adoption of the traditions and practices of their conquerors? Of course they were. Should that not be thoroughly understood before adhereing to a particular set of beliefs and traditions? Absolutely!

At the time of the Roman diaspora, Judean slaves were so plentiful that the average Roman citizen, resident alien or sojourner within that realm, could purchase a 'Jew' for the price of a loaf of bread. For the next two centuries or more, if a Judean, slave or not, was caught possessing Torah scrolls within the Roman Empire, it was a sentence of death by torture. They were often smeared with pitch, affixed to a pole and burned for garden party illumination and entertainment, no matter their beliefs about Messiah.

During the Roman conquest and the subsequent events of that century, we are also aware of the evolution of dogma within the 'believing' community that resulted in the destruction of many popular writings among the 'believers' by those congregation most closely aligned with the ever-changing policies, perspectives and politics of Rome. We have documentation of the brutal excesses of that era too. Both believers and non-believers, parchment and papyrus, were burned. Attitudes and teachings were 'adjusted' to fit the narrative du jour.

This is how we inherit tradition (dogma). Dogma drives teachings. Perhaps certain views deserve another look; like the possibility that what Messiah 'fulfilled' wasn't what has been decided by those that buried every non-acceptable interpretation and tradition under a pile of roasted parchment, people and pigs.

Considering the stakes, being 'sure' isn't enough. It is written that His people perish for lack of knowledge. Shouldn't that be enough to inspire us to keep seeking and testing? Perhaps, metaphorically speaking, putting all the proverbial eggs in one basket should be questioned. That is all I'm saying. But that is yours to decide.

May you be Blessed,

I truly enjoy the way you lay out your understanding in a form in which two men can carry on a discussion. Truly there are "Many" scrolls and books written by religious men, and the Wise man told us in Ecc. 12 that we are warned about them. And EVERY religious sect of this world adds these sources to the "gathered sayings that are given by one shepherd".

Not that I am anybody, or that my views mean anything, but fellowship is speaking one to another in sincerity and truth so in like manner, I too have come to certain understandings by reason of use.

I would like to share this understanding, in the same way you shared yours, for the edification of the Body of Christ. I like how you made inquiry into what "fulfill" actually means, suggesting that it might not mean the destruction or making void of the Torah or the Prophets who promoted them, rather, the END of the Prophesies regarding the birth and death of the "Man of Sorrows", the Priest of God "After the Order of Melchizedek", our Redeemer the Holy One of Israel.

I would also question the wide spread teaching that the Holy Bible, in English Translations, cannot be trusted "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

In my observation, EVERY religious sect on the planet promotes the belief that the KJV or the CLV or whichever translation a man has, is not sufficient for me to know God and His Instruction for me.

Most religions preach that I can't trust the Torah and the Prophets that promote them, because the Christ came to change His Fathers instruction in righteousness, or they are a Covenant that has become obsolete. Other religions promote the belief that I cannot trust the written Words of the Christ because HE was of this same old covenant. Still others claim I cannot trust the Holy scriptures that I was given at birth, because they were corrupted by religious men who were not of God. That I can't know God unless I learn a different language, and study ancient philosophies and traditions of Jews and the Talmud, etc.

In any event, EVERY religious sect on the planet promotes the belief that the Bible I have, is not sufficient to show me the righteousness of God or the wrath of God against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

One preacher recently told me that the Pharisees simply misinterpreted the ancient Hebrew scriptures. But when I study the Scriptures I have, this is shown to be untrue. God showed men His Truth, but they rejected it, they didn't misunderstand it.

Another preacher recently told me that it was the Custom of the man Yeshua to go to manmade temples of wood and stone to pray to God, sing praises and worship His Father. This too, was not supported as truth by any scripture, but a popular ancient tradition of man imparted onto the Christ by men who call Him Lord, Lord.

In both cases, these doctrines were not a misinterpretation, or false writings found in English Translations of the Bible, But by simply refusing to believe what is actually written.

What if the reason why the Christ of the Bible never warned about the Torah and the Prophets, only the men who would "profess that they know them", is because the One True God is more than capable of preserving His Truth in the Scriptures regardless of who the victors are?

What if God knew about all these differing religious sects that you correctly pointed out, and that is why HE warned about them, and not about being deceived by an English translation of the Holy scriptures, who referenced themselves as God's armor?

In the first Pentecost in the Church of God under HIS New Priest, all these men mentioned, heard God's Truth in their own language. They were not all tasked with learning ancient Hebrew before God's Truth was revealed to them. Nor were they told to go to Gamaliel or another philosopher, before God's Truth would be revealed to them.

At any rate, it is good to question the religious traditions and philosophies of this world's religious sects. And if Yeshua can be trusted, then even a lonely man in the middle of Kansas can go into his dark closet and pray, and God can hear him. And this same instruction is given to me in EVERY English translation I have ever studied.

Anyway, Food for thought and thanks for your insightful post.
 
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ralliann

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The following translator understands the following passage quite well, even to the point that it is the Body of Meshiah which is to judge regarding what is mentioned in the text, meaning that the word order, (which is not all that important in Greek, but more critical in English translations), is not properly rendered in most if not all English translations. The phrase, "the Body of Meshiah" is more properly placed at the beginning of verse sixteen. This is why so many translators find the need to either add to this statement or change the meaning of soma from body to substance: for it does not read properly in English without adding to it or redefining words so as to make sense of it, and the reason why is because it does not belong where it is generally placed in English translations, (the end of verse seventeen).

Colossians 2:13-22 TS2009 W/Footnotes
13 And you, being dead in your trespassesc and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, Footnote: cEph 2:1.
14 having blotted out that which was written by hand against us – by the dogmasd – which stood against us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the stake. Footnote: dDogmas - also see Col 2:20 and Eph 2:15.
15 Having stripped the principalities and the authorities, He made a public display of them, having prevailed over them in it.
16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths –
17 which are a shadow of what is to come – but the Body of the Messiah.e Footnote: eThe Body of Messiah is to give ruling on all matters, not the outsiders! See also Mat 18:15-20.
18 Let no one deprive you of the prize, one who takes delight in false humility and worship of messengers, taking his stand on what he has not seen, puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the Body – nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments – grows with the growth of Elohim.
20 If, then, you died with Messiah from the elementary mattersf of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to dogmas:d Footnotes: dDogmas - also see Col 2:14 and Eph 2:15. fSee Col 2:8 and Gal 4:3 and Gal 4:9.
21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle” –
22 which are all to perish with use – according to the commands and teachings of men?g Isa 29:13. Footnote: gSee also Mat 15:8-9, Mar 7:6-7.

The translator footnote for verse seventeen rightly says that it is the Body of Meshiah that is to rule on all matters, not outsiders: but it appears that the translator misses one thing, that is, the meaning of "the Body of Meshiah" in this context, and almost no doubt the Body of Meshiah in this context concerns the Tanak Body of the Meshiah because he is the Word. The Tanak Body of Meshiah was raised up in Matthew 27:51-53, and entered into the holy city, which means Yerushalem of above, not Yerushalem of below, (see Hebrews 12:22-24).

Thus it is the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the Tanak Body of Meshiah, which is to be our judge in the matters mentioned in that portion of the text above where this is mentioned. If therefore we correct the word order, as it appears to be meant in the Greek text, it should read and be rendered in the following manner.

Colossians 2:13-22
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he has made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
14 having blotted out the handwriting in dogmas that were against us, which were contrary to us: and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the stake:
15 having despoiled the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no one but the body of Meshiah therefore judge you in food, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new month or the Shabbat:
17 which are a shadow of the things to come.
18 Let no man rob you of your prize by a voluntary humility and worshiping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he has seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast the Head, from whom all the body, being supplied and knit together through the joints and bands, increases with the increase of Elohim.
20 If you died with Meshiah from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to dogmas,
21 Handle not, Taste not, Touch not,
22 (all of which things are to perish with the using), after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Nowhere in the scripture is the Torah ever called dogmas, and Paul explains at the end of the portion above that he speaks of the commandments and teachings or doctrines of men: that is surely not speaking of the Torah. However dogma does appear in the Septuagint, and is always used for edicts, decrees, dogmas, and proclamations from kings and rulers. In the sense of the Colossians passage herein above it is no doubt the rulers of the people, the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, and their handwritten dogmas and decrees which were against the people, and contrary to us all: for their interpretations of the Torah were based on a natural minded, outward, and physical understanding of the Torah, which we know from Romans 7:14 is spiritual, just as Elohim Himself is Spirit, (John 4:24), so His Word is Spirit, and likewise the Testimony of the Meshiah is Spirit, (John 6:63).

The handwritten dogmas and decrees of the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which were binding upon the whole nation, and which were contrary and against the people, are the same "letter" which Paul says kills.

The letter which kills is not the Torah. The letter which kills concerns the handwritten dogmas of the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which Paul speaks about in Colossians 2:14. Meshiah indeed triumphed over them and their carnal minded rulings, dogmas, and decrees, all over the place in the Gospel accounts for all to see: making a show of them and their hypocrisy openly before all the people, which is one of the main reasons why the rulers of the people had him killed.
The apostolic body of Messiah did write to the Churches......

Act 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

***The Holy Spirit was in the assembly

Ac 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

***Which letters were decrees (dogmata) to be kept....

Acts 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

***Again a recalling of this concerning misinformation of what Paul taught.

Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
 
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The apostolic body of Messiah did write to the Churches......

Act 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

***The Holy Spirit was in the assembly

Ac 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

***Which letters were decrees (dogmata) to be kept....

Acts 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

***Again a recalling of this concerning misinformation of what Paul taught.

Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

I do not agree that the passage says what your translation says. Your translation, in Acts 15:24, implies that observing the Torah was not necessary. That's the Byzantine and T/R text type. The western text types do not say the same.

Acts 15:22-24 ASV
22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men out of their company, and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 and they wrote thus by them, The apostles and the elders, brethren, unto the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greeting:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment;

There is nothing in the above statement about not observing the Torah or even about circumcision. Moreover the Byzantine text types and the T/R do the same thing again in the repetition passage you have quoted from, inserting words that make it look as if the nations are not expected to observe the Torah, which is obvious when we look at the verse right before the one you have quoted.

Acts 21:24-25 KJV
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Acts 21:25 ASV
25 But as touching the Gentiles that have believed, we wrote, giving judgment that they should keep themselves from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what is strangled, and from fornication.

The statement, observe no such thing, referring back to the statement about Paul observing the Torah, only exists in the T/R and Byzantine text types, showing that these two changes were systematic, intentional, and introduced by antinomians. One may say it is the opposite, or we will never know for sure, but I know for sure by Paul's own teachings in his writings and by the many places where antinomians pervert his words to this day, for Paul surely upholds the Torah and teaches from the Torah, Prophets, and Writings.

Moreover we must remember that the Acts 15 letter or epistle was not from Paul himself, but Paul was commissioned to deliver it to the congregations which the Master founded through him, so it is even more out of character that Yakob (aka James) the brother of Meshiah and Peter would have believed that the Torah was no longer critically necessary and important for the nations to study and be taught from. All the remainder of scripture belies such a notion including even the writings of Paul.
 
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ralliann

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I do not agree that the passage says what your translation says.
What is the western text type, and what does it say?
Your translation, in Acts 15:24, implies that observing the Torah was not necessary. That's the Byzantine and T/R text type. The western text types do not say the same.
Acts 15:22-24 ASV
22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men out of their company, and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 and they wrote thus by them, The apostles and the elders, brethren, unto the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greeting:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment;

There is nothing in the above statement about not observing the Torah or even about circumcision. Moreover the Byzantine text types and the T/R do the same thing again in the repetition passage you have quoted from, inserting words that make it look as if the nations are not expected to observe the Torah, which is obvious when we look at the verse right before the one you have quoted.

Acts 21:24-25 KJV
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Acts 21:25 ASV
25 But as touching the Gentiles that have believed, we wrote, giving judgment that they should keep themselves from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what is strangled, and from fornication.

The statement, observe no such thing, referring back to the statement about Paul observing the Torah, only exists in the T/R and Byzantine text types, showing that these two changes were systematic, intentional, and introduced by antinomians. One may say it is the opposite, or we will never know for sure, but I know for sure by Paul's own teachings in his writings and by the many places where antinomians pervert his words to this day, for Paul surely upholds the Torah and teaches from the Torah, Prophets, and Writings.

Moreover we must remember that the Acts 15 letter or epistle was not from Paul himself, but Paul was commissioned to deliver it to the congregations which the Master founded through him, so it is even more out of character that Yakob (aka James) the brother of Meshiah and Peter would have believed that the Torah was no longer critically necessary and important for the nations to study and be taught from. All the remainder of scripture belies such a notion including even the writings of Paul.
I do not agree that the passage says what your translation says. Your translation, in Acts 15:24, implies that observing the Torah was not necessary. That's the Byzantine and T/R text type. The western text types do not say the same.

Acts 15:22-24 ASV
22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men out of their company, and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 and they wrote thus by them, The apostles and the elders, brethren, unto the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greeting:
They wrote to them.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment;

There is nothing in the above statement about not observing the Torah or even about circumcision. Moreover the Byzantine text types and the T/R do the same thing again in the repetition passage you have quoted from, inserting words that make it look as if the nations are not expected to observe the Torah, which is obvious when we look at the verse right before the one you have quoted.

Acts 21:24-25 KJV
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Save only, takes care of it
Acts 21:25 ASV
25 But as touching the Gentiles that have believed, we wrote, giving judgment that they should keep themselves from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what is strangled, and from fornication.
This is recalling the council decision and the letters delivered to the Churches concerning Gentiles.
The statement, observe no such thing, referring back to the statement about Paul observing the Torah, only exists in the T/R and Byzantine text types, showing that these two changes were systematic, intentional, and introduced by antinomians.
Save only is equal to "nothing other than" Just like at the council
One may say it is the opposite, or we will never know for sure, but I know for sure by Paul's own teachings in his writings and by the many places where antinomians pervert his words to this day, for Paul surely upholds the Torah and teaches from the Torah, Prophets, and Writings.
It is not antinomian, rather it is nomian as the Apostolic minsiters are a "priesthood" Which Christ is the High priest. The temple minstry and it's ministers were a shadow. They determined any controversies and their judgments were to be kept. No different than a decree....

***Seat of Moses.......
De 1:17 Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.

***The judge take it to the high priest......

De 17:8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
9 And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:
10 And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:
11 According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.


Moreover we must remember that the Acts 15 letter or epistle was not from Paul himself, but Paul was commissioned to deliver it to the congregations which the Master founded through him, so it is even more out of character that Yakob (aka James) the brother of Meshiah and Peter would have believed that the Torah was no longer critically necessary and important for the nations to study and be taught from. All the remainder of scripture belies such a notion including even the writings of Paul.
It does not matter. The Church of the council in acts was in accordance to Deuteronomy 17. The new covenant priesthood....foreshadowed in the law.

***Carrying out the duty of the new covenant priesthood........

De 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried:
 
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Gary K

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Perhaps we should ask more often, 'how can we be sure?'

Not trying to dispute what was said here, despite not being in agreement. That would be foolish and fruitless. Simply trying to impart why many other sects and denominations among the community of believers have adopted entirely different interpretations based on various textual and contextual methodologies. Sadly, many decisions regarding the interpretation of scripture, made in both academic and religious circles, are based on cultural norms, funding and/or political narratives as much as anything else.

"As of 09 Feb 2024, there are more than 45,000 Christian denominations worldwide, including the Roman Catholic Church, 25 principal forms of Eastern Orthodoxy, numerous varieties of Protestantism, and tiny store-front churches with fewer than 100 members." (1)

"Christianity is the largest religious group in the world, with an estimated 2.3 to 2.6 billion adherents in 2020." (3)

"Some conservative churches that voted to disaffiliate say the denomination has responded by forcing out their pastors and charging them millions to keep their property." (0)

"The number of church buildings in the US is not mentioned in the sources." (2)

This, according to:
christianitytoday.com (0)
wesleyan.edu (1)
thecompletepilgrim.com (2)
en.wikipedia.org (3)
List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia

Almost all of these listed above claim to be led by the Spirit. But when the results of their disparate conclusions are considered by others, whether believing or not, many have come to ask, "By which spirit?"

The short version is that Christian denominations by any metric are Big Business. They have a vested interest in their adherents conforming to their particular belief system and traditions. We have all seen congregations split over the color of carpet. How much more so over the color of their dogma?

Not saying any particular belief system is more or less correct than any other. But this is why some have come to the conclusion that scripture and commentary, taken in context, is much more valuable to the seeker than denominations and dogma. Perhaps choosing one's own beliefs first, is a better way of choosing the congregation to which one should belong. But in this world, most people are born into a church before they become 'born again' in Messiah.

Performing certain mental exercises on dogma and beliefs and then asking different questions in different manners, is a great way to see if they may fit any other possibilities. Such as asking if the Messiah, referring to what is 'fulfilled' in this case, was perhaps not Torah (the 'Law'), but what the Prophets prophesied about the Messiah? There were after all, certain expectations of what the Messiah would be like and what He would do during His ministry and reign. Shouldn't that be thoroughly explored to dispel any hint of doubt by the seeker?

One of the things that turned my way of thinking around, was to study Eastern philosophy and how it affects our understanding of verbal and written communications from a Western perspective. Although it is possible that one's conclusions may not be 'earth shattering', however, it may very well be eye-opening. And it provides a starting point to a journey from what a person had always been taught, to what a person would know. Serious discrepancies between what is taught and what is learned should be rectified - and that will never happen in an unquestioning devotion to tradition.

Another source of revelation is to study ancient writing forms and how they were understood from within the cultural context of the people to whom they were originally intended. For instance, look at the differences between the interpretations of ancient writings (including the survival of those writings) to be found between a conquerors' understanding and that of the conquered. This is an ever evolving field of study, but one worthy of our attention.

The victor writes the history. It is widely accepted that this type of dramatic re-interpretation of ancient writings, events and customs occurred with the expansion of many ancient empires. The Hittite, the Assyrian, the Babylonian and the Greek treatment of ancient cultures and their writings is fairly well documented, but not completely understood. So what befell the many-times enslaved sons of Israel in this regard? Were they not similarly corrupted with the adoption of the traditions and practices of their conquerors? Of course they were. Should that not be thoroughly understood before adhereing to a particular set of beliefs and traditions? Absolutely!

At the time of the Roman diaspora, Judean slaves were so plentiful that the average Roman citizen, resident alien or sojourner within that realm, could purchase a 'Jew' for the price of a loaf of bread. For the next two centuries or more, if a Judean, slave or not, was caught possessing Torah scrolls within the Roman Empire, it was a sentence of death by torture. They were often smeared with pitch, affixed to a pole and burned for garden party illumination and entertainment, no matter their beliefs about Messiah.

During the Roman conquest and the subsequent events of that century, we are also aware of the evolution of dogma within the 'believing' community that resulted in the destruction of many popular writings among the 'believers' by those congregation most closely aligned with the ever-changing policies, perspectives and politics of Rome. We have documentation of the brutal excesses of that era too. Both believers and non-believers, parchment and papyrus, were burned. Attitudes and teachings were 'adjusted' to fit the narrative du jour.

This is how we inherit tradition (dogma). Dogma drives teachings. Perhaps certain views deserve another look; like the possibility that what Messiah 'fulfilled' wasn't what has been decided by those that buried every non-acceptable interpretation and tradition under a pile of roasted parchment, people and pigs.

Considering the stakes, being 'sure' isn't enough. It is written that His people perish for lack of knowledge. Shouldn't that be enough to inspire us to keep seeking and testing? Perhaps, metaphorically speaking, putting all the proverbial eggs in one basket should be questioned. That is all I'm saying. But that is yours to decide.

May you be Blessed,
It's not that difficult if we rely on God instead of our own intellectual power.

John 16: 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

When we find ourselves doing what know we shouldn't on a regular we can know without a doubt that we are not listening to the HS. We know at that point that we are doubting God's power to deliver us from sin and since we are doubting we can know there is something wrong with our beliefs for what we believe controls our behavior.
 
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daq

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What is the western text type, and what does it say?

It says pretty much what I posted from the ASV, which reads from the N/A, (Nestle Aland, a western majority text).

They wrote to them.

Save only, takes care of it

This is recalling the council decision and the letters delivered to the Churches concerning Gentiles.

Save only is equal to "nothing other than" Just like at the council

It does not appear that you understood my argument.

It is not antinomian, rather it is nomian as the Apostolic minsiters are a "priesthood" Which Christ is the High priest. The temple minstry and it's ministers were a shadow. They determined any controversies and their judgments were to be kept. No different than a decree....

Yes, it is, because it adds statements into the text in order to make it look as if the Apostles wrote and stated that the nations have no need for the Torah. That notion is already refuted in the Acts 15 text by the fact that the nations have Mosheh being read at any and every synagogue where they can hear the Word of the Father on every Shabbat.

Acts 15:19-21 ASV
19 Wherefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them that from among the Gentiles turn to God;
20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath.

***Seat of Moses.......
De 1:17 Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.

Amen. How therefore can anyone say that the Torah is only for the Yhudim according to the flesh and not for the nations who are to be grafted into the olive tree of the all Yisrael of the Father through His Son who is His Word? If there can be neither Yhudi nor Greek, as Paul teaches and says, and if Elohim is no respector of the persons of men, then His Torah is for all who would take hold of His renewed covenant and be grafted into His nation and people and family.

***The judge take it to the high priest......

De 17:8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
9 And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:
10 And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:
11 According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.

Amen, and we know who the Chief Kohen now is according to the order of Melki-Tzedek: therefore his Testimony in the Gospel accounts overrules any doctrine that is in opposition to his Testimony and teachings. And therefore Paul likewise teaches the same Gospel as Meshiah teaches in the Gospel accounts.

It does not matter. The Church of the council in acts was in accordance to Deuteronomy 17. The new covenant priesthood....foreshadowed in the law.

Amen. Therefore the translation you quoted for the two Acts passages is in error.

***Carrying out the duty of the new covenant priesthood........

De 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried:

I hope you read the context surrounding the passage you have quoted here, but I do get your point, and I actually somewhat agree. However, can you explain how it is that you came to understand that believers might possibly be counted as Levim, (Levites)? And if indeed what you suggest is true then how can believers act as upright Levim without knowing and understanding the commandments, ordinances, statutes, and judgments prescribed for them in the Torah? How is it possible to make righteous judgments without knowing, understanding, and adhering to those instructions from the Father in His Torah-Word?

If you are going to claim that Yakob and the elders of the Acts 15 council are equal to Levim, (Yakob is of tribe Yhudah), then the judgments given in Acts 15 must no doubt comply with the Torah, and they do: but then there is the fact that the scripture calls all believers priests or kohanim, even a kingdom of priests and a royal priesthood. So if this is true, and if your exegesis here is anywhere near correct, (and I believe it's pretty close), then you as a Levite have a manual for your duties: in English Bibles it is called the book of Leviticus.
 
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ralliann

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It says pretty much what I posted from the ASV, which reads from the N/A, (Nestle Aland, a western majority text).



It does not appear that you understood my argument.



Yes, it is, because it adds statements into the text in order to make it look as if the Apostles wrote and stated that the nations have no need for the Torah. That notion is already refuted in the Acts 15 text by the fact that the nations have Mosheh being read at any and every synagogue where they can hear the Word of the Father on every Shabbat.

Acts 15:19-21 ASV
19 Wherefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them that from among the Gentiles turn to God;
20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath.
Firstly, we are not talking about "No need for Torah".
And Moses was taught from Ancient times. At least since Cyrus, Artaxerxes. But Gentiles were never taught to keep Levitcal law.

Amen. How therefore can anyone say that the Torah is only for the Yhudim according to the flesh and not for the nations who are to be grafted into the olive tree of the all Yisrael of the Father through His Son who is His Word? If there can be neither Yhudi nor Greek, as Paul teaches and says, and if Elohim is no respector of the persons of men, then His Torah is for all who would take hold of His renewed covenant and be grafted into His nation and people and family.
Go to a synagogue today. What do they teach concerning Gentile righteousness? Noachide
First of all The new covenant does not "renew the old. The new covenant makes the first covenant OLD. And as Galatians teaches us there are two covenants, not one. So the first is made old, by the new.

Amen, and we know who the Chief Kohen now is according to the order of Melki-Tzedek: therefore his Testimony in the Gospel accounts overrules any doctrine that is in opposition to his Testimony and teachings. And therefore Paul likewise teaches the same Gospel as Meshiah teaches in the Gospel accounts.
I would say Paul teaches the same Gospel which was preached before to our Father Abraham
Amen. Therefore the translation you quoted for the two Acts passages is in error.
No, it is why Peter and the members of the Jewish council did not know about Gentiles in the faith. They were surprised at Cornelious. Having had no idea.
I hope you read the context surrounding the passage you have quoted here,
I think we disagree on the details. First it appears we see exactly opposit concerning the Gospels and Pauls teachings. It is quite clear the Apostles did not understand concerning the uncircumcision until much later. Paul received it by revelation.
but I do get your point, and I actually somewhat agree. However, can you explain how it is that you came to understand that believers might possibly be counted as Levim, (Levites)? And if indeed what you suggest is true then how can believers act as upright Levim without knowing and understanding the commandments, ordinances, statutes, and judgments prescribed for them in the Torah?
Because Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all doing that prior to Levitical law. They were not under the Sinai covenant.
How is it possible to make righteous judgments without knowing, understanding, and adhering to those instructions from the Father in His Torah-Word?
I already did. Shadows and patterns.. but Fulfillment is unto Abraham in Christ
If you are going to claim that Yakob and the elders of the Acts 15 council are equal to Levim, (Yakob is of tribe Yhudah), then the judgments given in Acts 15 must no doubt comply with the Torah, and they do: but then there is the fact that the scripture calls all believers priests or kohanim, even a kingdom of priests and a royal priesthood. So if this is true, and if your exegesis here is anywhere near correct, (and I believe it's pretty close), then you as a Levite have a manual for your duties: in English Bibles it is called the book of Leviticus.
Let's do this.
The covenant made with Israel at Sinai/Horeb was not made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Deut 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Why all then circumcision to the whole of it indebted?
Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

I think this.....
He charged them them with an oath... (because of his jealousy)
Nu 5:21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;

Deut 29:10 Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel,
11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day:
13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:

Just like this
Nu 30:13 Every vow, and every binding oath to afflict the soul, her husband may establish it, or her husband may make it void.
 
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