God and His love

[tdidymas]

Seriously, read the whole chapter. He explains how to come to him first.

I read the chapter with your bias, and I see how you can come to that conclusion, but I disagree with it. I read it that Jesus is talking about WHO comes to Him, as He says "he who..." 7 times in the middle of his conversation. He says "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me," which means that whoever comes to Christ must first have a revelation from God, which means it's not going to happen by natural reasoning and choices. God is spirit and the father of spirits, and the natural mind doesn't get it. Therefore, the one who eats of Christ has come to Christ first, and those have first been given to Christ by the Father. It's pretty obvious to me that all the elements that result in regeneration have happened already before the action of "eating." Hearing and learning from God precedes the faith that causes one to come to Christ.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

No answer. Hmmm...

That's my answer, since your question is a straw man. How can God be in control, yet "the whole world is under the control of the evil one"? Do you deny that God is in control?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

No, but I have nothing against them. I just don't find them convincing. Because God created time, I don't see how he can be in time.

Do you debate with them also?

And do you see how it is much like what transpires between us? I don't find you convincing, because so far I have given a consistently Biblical answer to every one of your objections. Furthermore, your objections have more to do with how you read various verses of scripture, rather than getting the truth from the context of it, IMO. In fact, most of my explanations of scripture you didn't object to. Most of your objections have to do with what you think Calvinism teaches, as opposed to what Reformed Theology actually teaches, like the Westminster Confession.

So, my point is that Open Theology is just as much Arminianism as Hyper-Calvinism is to Calvinism. If you confuse things like Determinism with the statement that God is in control, then you have just as much a problem as those who confuse your version of foreknowledge with the idea that "God is so wise He has you figured out, but He doesn't actually know what you're going to do until you do it" (which is a common statement of the Open Theists who try to fit the idea of foreknowledge into their theological framework).
TD

 

[renniks]

Under conviction, the unregenerate feigns submission because he is trying to appease God's wrath. As soon as he is out of God's presence he goes back to sinning, because it is his nature to do so, and the conviction is soon forgotten. For one to be converted, his nature must be changed.
TD

We were reprobates. You don't seem able to comprehend that you are not some special one of the chosen few. Of course, our natures must be changed, and in order for that to happen we must submit, which is all faith is, submitting to God.

 

[renniks]

That's my answer, since your question is a straw man. How can God be in control, yet "the whole world is under the control of the evil one"? Do you deny that God is in control?
TD

That's why I asked what you mean by control, because apparently you don't understand the word. If I totally control you, everything you do is actually my doing. No, God is not controlling us. We are responsible for our own sin and our own obedience. In an overall sense, God is in charge, which means he will ultimately win the battle, and he will bless those who love him by working even bad stuff into good. But he's not a control freak. That's not his role in this current reality.

 

[renniks]

Most of your objections have to do with what you think Calvinism teaches, as opposed to what Reformed Theology actually teaches, like the Westminster Confession.

The Westminster confession teaches that everything happens because of God ordaining it, and not because he foresaw it. That means all sin is God's doing. Yes, I know what reformed theology teaches and thats what I'm opposed to.

 

[renniks]

Do you debate with them also?

Sometimes. I haven't' seen many on here.

 

[StillGods]

If I have to answer that question, then it indicates that you can't read the context of what is written. The nature of my statement shows that I believe it, and using it as a basis for pointing out that the doctrines of Reformed Theology are taken out of scripture in the same way. Of course, I assume you believe it also, otherwise I wouldn't have made my point in this manner. In order to understand what is written in the bible, we have to get practiced at extracting the meaning of the text from the context, and avoid reading our own opinions into it.
TD

You still don't get it, and it makes me wonder if you have any spiritual understanding. Read 1 Cor. 2 and see that Paul makes a distinction between what is spiritual and what is natural. Spiritual reasoning relies on the revelation from God as written by the apostles and prophets, whereas natural reasoning relies on personal feelings and experience. Spiritual knowledge comes by illumination from the Spirit, and is deeply inset in the soul, which transcends feelings. Spiritual knowledge can't be felt or understood by natural reasoning, and it's why we need God's special revelation in scripture to teach us about it.

So, to hand you the answer on a "silver platter," the grace of God is resisted in the natural realm, but because of the power of the Spirit who overcomes the strength of man's resistance, God ultimately conquers the human soul.
TD

Ah, sadly we see here the arrogance of Calvinism in all it's glory.
I suspect it comes from not having to humble oneself as apparently God does everything for the Calvinist.

 

[tdidymas]

We were reprobates. You don't seem able to comprehend that you are not some special one of the chosen few. Of course, our natures must be changed, and in order for that to happen we must submit, which is all faith is, submitting to God.

Someone whose nature is not changed will never submit, this is what Rom. 3:10-18 is about. Submission results from and act of God to change our nature. It's a spiritual event.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

That's why I asked what you mean by control, because apparently you don't understand the word. If I totally control you, everything you do is actually my doing. No, God is not controlling us. We are responsible for our own sin and our own obedience. In an overall sense, God is in charge, which means he will ultimately win the battle, and he will bless those who love him by working even bad stuff into good. But he's not a control freak. That's not his role in this current reality.

So I take it you don't believe God is in control, ok. But your idea that if God was in control you think He is a control freak, then your view of that God is more like the devil. The Bible says that the evil one is in control of the whole world, and I suppose you don't believe that either, since you think that every person is naturally in control of themselves, even as the culture teaches, by reason of what you call "free will." But I guess my explanation of what the Bible says about it doesn't satisfy you, since you're looking for something else. So, maybe our conversation is about to end.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

The Westminster confession teaches that everything happens because of God ordaining it, and not because he foresaw it. That means all sin is God's doing. Yes, I know what reformed theology teaches and thats what I'm opposed to.

Well, you're dead wrong about this. The Westminster Confession says that God is not the author of sin, so you don't understand what it says.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Ah, sadly we see here the arrogance of Calvinism in all it's glory.
I suspect it comes from not having to humble oneself as apparently God does everything for the Calvinist.

Again, look in the mirror, since you don't seem to listen to what scripture has to say. Every time I refute your objections by scriptural reference, you avoid answering it, and then come up with some other objection, and then when you can't think of any, you resort to ad hominem attacks. So, I guess our conversation is over, since you can't seem to present anything valid any more. I'll leave you to stew in your confusion about Reformed teaching.
TD

 

[StillGods]

Again, look in the mirror, since you don't seem to listen to what scripture has to say. Every time I refute your objections by scriptural reference, you avoid answering it, and then come up with some other objection, and then when you can't think of any, you resort to ad hominem attacks. So, I guess our conversation is over, since you can't seem to present anything valid any more. I'll leave you to stew in your confusion about Reformed teaching.
TD

thanks for your help

 

[renniks]

Someone whose nature is not changed will never submit, this is what Rom. 3:10-18 is about. Submission results from and act of God to change our nature. It's a spiritual event.
TD

The point of Romans 3 is that we are all equally sinners and in need of salvation. There is no difference.
" there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
You are totally changing Paul's point, that it is by faith we are justified and not works.
He is not claiming we can't respond to God, just the opposite. He's showing us that the atonement is for all.

 

[renniks]

So I take it you don't believe God is in control, ok. But your idea that if God was in control you think He is a control freak, then your view of that God is more like the devil. The Bible says that the evil one is in control of the whole world, and I suppose you don't believe that either, since you think that every person is naturally in control of themselves, even as the culture teaches, by reason of what you call "free will." But I guess my explanation of what the Bible says about it doesn't satisfy you, since you're looking for something else. So, maybe our conversation is about to end.
TD

We are not under the evil one's control. The world is. You need to make up your mind about who is in control, BTW. Your statement about God being a control freak applies to you, because you are the one who portrays him that way. Your reformed theologians claim that God basically controls Satan's actions.
God is in charge, not controlling everything. There's a difference. I may be in charge of my family, but I don't control all they do.

 

[renniks]

Well, you're dead wrong about this. The Westminster Confession says that God is not the author of sin, so you don't understand what it says.
TD

It says that after saying that everything happens by his decree. That includes all evil. It makes God author of sin, no matter what they add to try and soften it.

 

[tdidymas]

The point of Romans 3 is that we are all equally sinners and in need of salvation. There is no difference.
" there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
You are totally changing Paul's point, that it is by faith we are justified and not works.
He is not claiming we can't respond to God, just the opposite. He's showing us that the atonement is for all.

Right, and all have the desperate need for God's special grace, wherein God interrupts their hopeless condition with a supernatural solution, since all are slaves of sin. If left to ourselves for our own fallen will to choose Christ, no one would choose in that condition. God has to change it.

But if you claim that faith comes from you, and not God, then you are the one claiming to be justified by your work. It takes a lot of work to get from unbelief to belief. But my point is that it is given by God, thus it is a free gift.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

We are not under the evil one's control. The world is. You need to make up your mind about who is in control, BTW. Your statement about God being a control freak applies to you, because you are the one who portrays him that way. Your reformed theologians claim that God basically controls Satan's actions.
God is in charge, not controlling everything. There's a difference. I may be in charge of my family, but I don't control all they do.

Your response here is some evidence that you are actually trying to misunderstand me. All I did was quote the scripture "the whole world is under the control of the evil one." If you doubt me, go to 1 Jn. 5:19 and read it in the NIV. Do you disagree with that? My point is that all the unregenerate are so, as John clearly declares, including us before God saved us. Yet, now you are confusing the issue at hand by including saved people, I guess just so you'll have an excuse to disagree?? My point is that all the unregenerate have a sinful nature, and they go where that nature takes them. In order for anyone to go against that nature (by believing in Christ, since that is a spiritual condition), that nature has to be changed by God. IOW, God must release them from the bondage of the sinful nature, and then they are free to believe.

But your confusion about reformed teaching is pretty well fixed, I can see that. So, just for argument sake, I'll use your logic on you, to say that Arminianism is essentially Pelagianism. Arminianism teaches that man on his own without God is basically good, that there is no sinful nature, but just a matter of education and a person's desire to please God, and they could become sinlessly perfect, if they just try hard enough, with a belief in Christ. This is what Pelagius taught, and Arminius taught essentially the same thing, just like the Roman church teaches. I'm merely using your logic the other way.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

It says that after saying that everything happens by his decree. That includes all evil. It makes God author of sin, no matter what they add to try and soften it.

Your confusion about reformed teaching is pretty well fixed, I can see that. So, just for argument sake, I'll use your logic on you, to say that Arminianism is essentially Pelagianism. Arminianism teaches that man on his own without God is basically good, that there is no sinful nature, but just a matter of education and a person's desire to please God, and they could become sinlessly perfect, if they just try hard enough, with a belief in Christ. This is what Pelagius taught, and Arminius taught essentially the same thing, just like the Roman church teaches. I'm merely using your logic the other way.
TD

 

[renniks]

But if you claim that faith comes from you, and not God, then you are the one claiming to be justified by your work. It takes a lot of work to get from unbelief to belief.

No, because faith isn't a work. That would go directly against Paul's teaching here. It doesn't take a lot of work. It's a choice, not an action.