Gaining : The Maturity

[Aviel]

Reader...
-
When a person comes to God by Faith in Christ... God gives them "Christ's righteousness" as "the imputed righteousness of Christ'.

This is the "Divine Exchange", whereby Jesus takes your sin, as "God hath made Jesus to BE .Sin....for us".

In other words, Jesus becomes our sin, as If He is the sinner.....= "God hath laid on Jesus the SIN (iniquity) .. of us ALL"..

Isaiah 53:6

That is John 3:16..... and 2 Corinthians 5:19... and Romans 3:17.

And what do we become now that Jesus has become our sin bearer?

We, the Born again become .."Made Righteous".... "made free from sin".. having Become..."THE Righteousness of God, in Christ"

How do we get that?

= "imputed righteousness" as "THE GIFT of Righteousness".

So, that is how we start as CHRISTians.......... and only 2 seconds earlier we were SINNERS, unforgiven..

Now, we are "made righteous", "Saints".

There is our Salvation...

But now, the next day starts and there you are born again, made righteous, and yet you have wrong thought patterns and you have habits and behavior issues, that are of the MIND.......not the Spirit.. as the Spirit is born again, but your MIND is not.

So, the process of Discipleship, the literal important part, is not trying to be some fake imitation of Christ.......but its to understand fully, who you have become, as a "new Creation IN Christ"....as learning what this is all about, is how you "work out your Salvation".

See reader, if you are born again, and not just water baptized and religious.... YOU ALREADY HAVE SALVATION....... AND NOW you are to learn how to exist in it., correctly.... = by gaining all the revelation knowledge that is available to you, so that you get your mind in line with God's perspective of you.

Baby Christians, do not have this yet., and they can be 50 yrs saved.
Mature BELIEVERS, do have the REVELATION.... and the mature believer, is this one...Paul teaches....>"as many as be PERFECT">.

And that means that you have attained to God's perspective regarding what it means to be a "new Creation in Christ".

If you dont have it.....you'll be talking about sin a lot.. You'll be trying to confess sin... You'll believe you can lose your salvation... You'll talk about Law and commandments a lot,.. You will believe that water washed away your sin.... and you will have no understanding of the Cross of Christ.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

In other words, Jesus becomes our sin, as If He is the sinner.....= "God hath laid on Jesus the SIN (iniquity) .. of us ALL"..

With all due respect...this is an unfortunate interpretation by Luther and made worse by Calvin.

Jesus is not the sinner.

He is our Propitiation sent to satisfy the wrath of God against sin for those who believe. He bears our iniquities. He does not become our iniquities.

Isaiah
But the Lord was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; if He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, and the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; by His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.”

 

[bling]

Reader...
-
When a person comes to God by Faith in Christ... God gives them "Christ's righteousness" as "the imputed righteousness of Christ'.

This is the "Divine Exchange", whereby Jesus takes your sin, as "God hath made Jesus to BE .Sin....for us".

In other words, Jesus becomes our sin, as If He is the sinner.....= "God hath laid on Jesus the SIN (iniquity) .. of us ALL"..

Isaiah 53:6

That is John 3:16..... and 2 Corinthians 5:19... and Romans 3:17.

And what do we become now that Jesus has become our sin bearer?

We, the Born again become .."Made Righteous".... "made free from sin".. having Become..."THE Righteousness of God, in Christ"

How do we get that?

= "imputed righteousness" as "THE GIFT of Righteousness".

So, that is how we start as CHRISTians.......... and only 2 seconds earlier we were SINNERS, unforgiven..

Now, we are "made righteous", "Saints".

There is our Salvation...

But now, the next day starts and there you are born again, made righteous, and yet you have wrong thought patterns and you have habits and behavior issues, that are of the MIND.......not the Spirit.. as the Spirit is born again, but your MIND is not.

So, the process of Discipleship, the literal important part, is not trying to be some fake imitation of Christ.......but its to understand fully, who you have become, as a "new Creation IN Christ"....as learning what this is all about, is how you "work out your Salvation".

See reader, if you are born again, and not just water baptized and religious.... YOU ALREADY HAVE SALVATION....... AND NOW you are to learn how to exist in it., correctly.... = by gaining all the revelation knowledge that is available to you, so that you get your mind in line with God's perspective of you.

Baby Christians, do not have this yet., and they can be 50 yrs saved.
Mature BELIEVERS, do have the REVELATION.... and the mature believer, is this one...Paul teaches....>"as many as be PERFECT">.

And that means that you have attained to God's perspective regarding what it means to be a "new Creation in Christ".

If you dont have it.....you'll be talking about sin a lot.. You'll be trying to confess sin... You'll believe you can lose your salvation... You'll talk about Law and commandments a lot,.. You will believe that water washed away your sin.... and you will have no understanding of the Cross of Christ.

Atonement is a huge topic which takes many words and verses of scripture to explain. Do you want to take the time to go over every verse?

As an example:

You gave two interpretations to some “proof text” verse (2 Cor. 5:21) which I do not see as being the most likely interpretations.

2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

This is an extremely important verse to show imputing our sins to Christ, so the imputing of righteousness to man seems logical, BUT:

Is that even a good translation?

What does “Christ made to be sin” or “Christ made sin” mean: did Christ become a sinner, did a being become an intangible thing like “sin” and are there other scripture to help us with this?

If you go to the NIV there is an alternative translation for at the bottom where “sin offering” is given as an alternative to “being made sin” and we all know Christ was a “sin offering”, so what support is there for that translation?

Paul being a scholar of the Torah, used a Hebraism. In this case, the Hebrew word for "sin" was also used to mean "sin offering" (see the Hebrew word: chatta'ath), and thus to be "made sin" was a Hebrew way of saying "made a sin offering". the NASB cross-references to Romans 8:3 which uses "sin offering" in a similar text as 2 Corinthians 5:21

There is the analogy in 2 Corinthians 8:9; the cross-reference to the clearer statement in Romans 8:3 that Christ was sent "in the likeness of sinful flesh" to deal with sin; and the allusion to Sacrifice in 2 Corinthians 5:21 where it says Christ "knew no sin" in corresponding to the sacrificial animal being free of blemish (otherwise Paul saying "knew no sin" would be irrelevant here).

The Greek word for "sin" that Paul uses is used in the Greek Old Testament both to mean "sin" and "sin offering," with both usages even in the same verse such as in Leviticus 4:3.

You can certainly do a deeper study of 2 Cor 5: 21 and we can go into Ro.3-4.

 

[RandyPNW]

Reader...
-
When a person comes to God by Faith in Christ... God gives them "Christ's righteousness" as "the imputed righteousness of Christ'.

This is the "Divine Exchange", whereby Jesus takes your sin, as "God hath made Jesus to BE .Sin....for us".

In other words, Jesus becomes our sin, as If He is the sinner.....= "God hath laid on Jesus the SIN (iniquity) .. of us ALL"..

Isaiah 53:6

That is John 3:16..... and 2 Corinthians 5:19... and Romans 3:17.

And what do we become now that Jesus has become our sin bearer?

We, the Born again become .."Made Righteous".... "made free from sin".. having Become..."THE Righteousness of God, in Christ"

How do we get that?

= "imputed righteousness" as "THE GIFT of Righteousness".

So, that is how we start as CHRISTians.......... and only 2 seconds earlier we were SINNERS, unforgiven..

Now, we are "made righteous", "Saints".

There is our Salvation...

But now, the next day starts and there you are born again, made righteous, and yet you have wrong thought patterns and you have habits and behavior issues, that are of the MIND.......not the Spirit.. as the Spirit is born again, but your MIND is not.

So, the process of Discipleship, the literal important part, is not trying to be some fake imitation of Christ.......but its to understand fully, who you have become, as a "new Creation IN Christ"....as learning what this is all about, is how you "work out your Salvation".

See reader, if you are born again, and not just water baptized and religious.... YOU ALREADY HAVE SALVATION....... AND NOW you are to learn how to exist in it., correctly.... = by gaining all the revelation knowledge that is available to you, so that you get your mind in line with God's perspective of you.

Baby Christians, do not have this yet., and they can be 50 yrs saved.
Mature BELIEVERS, do have the REVELATION.... and the mature believer, is this one...Paul teaches....>"as many as be PERFECT">.

And that means that you have attained to God's perspective regarding what it means to be a "new Creation in Christ".

If you dont have it.....you'll be talking about sin a lot.. You'll be trying to confess sin... You'll believe you can lose your salvation... You'll talk about Law and commandments a lot,.. You will believe that water washed away your sin.... and you will have no understanding of the Cross of Christ.

It's an important subject, and I will give you my 2 bits on it. To be "Born Again" never intended to imply perfection, or a complete transition from earthly to heavenly, from carnal to spiritual, from self-guidance to guidance by revelation. It is simply indicative of a choice to follow the right path, together with all of its problems.

So you can be Born Again just by choosing to follow Christ. Indeed, it is by revelation, but it won't be perfect. We choose to follow the right way, but begin as mere babes, replete with many errors. We must learn to minimize the errors and avoid the Big Sins, which will set us way back.

How can we say we're Born Again or "Saved" when we follow revelation sometimes, and yet at other times follow our own carnal impulses? It is precisely because getting Saved is not equal to "complete sanctification in this life!" Salvation is the initial choice to follow Christ, and not the perfection that comes from Christ alone!

So Christ provided all of the perfection necessary, and certainly not us. We just choose him as our way, truth, and life. He covers our flaws, but expects our choice to be real and genuine.

If we truly choose him we will continue to follow him all our lives, flaws and all. That is the real difference between Saved or not--do we follow him in sincerity, proving it over a stretch of time?

 

[Aviel]

Jesus is not the sinner.

Let me show you again... Paul's teaching that you misidentified as "Luther".


1.) "God hath Made JESUS, to be SIN>.....for us"..

2) "Jesus is the ONE TIME ....Eternal Sacrifice.... for Sin".

Where is this found?

A.) THE CROSS of Christ

Paul said...""The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for ME"..

and for you too, @Maria Billingsley .


And how did Jesus "Give Himself for you"?

A.) """as an OFFERING and a Sacrifice To God.""

What is that?

"the NEW Covenant"

Your : Salvation..

John 14:6

 

[Aviel]

Atonement is a huge topic which takes many words and verses of scripture to explain.

The BLOOD Atonement, is i think what you are referring to ?

That is the "New Covenant".

What is that?

A.) The Cross of Christ

Jesus's Sacrifice on THE Cross... is the "Atonement", and there is none other.

 

[Aviel]

To be "Born Again" never intended to imply perfection

Born Again, refers to a Spiritual Birth that happens when the Spirit of God, birth's a Believer's Spirit as "born again", into the Spirit of God.

This is to become a '"new Creation, in Christ". as "One with God".

 

[bling]

The BLOOD Atonement, is i think what you are referring to ?

That is the "New Covenant".

What is that?

A.) The Cross of Christ

Jesus's Sacrifice on THE Cross... is the "Atonement", and there is none other.

Jesus being tortured, humiliated and murdered going to and through the cross, is the atonement sacrifice, but He is not the complete atonement process. To try and understand the atonement process for individual sins, we need to start with Lev. 5 where we have atonement for unintentional sins (really minor sins almost accidental sins). There is a part the sinner plays, besides just doing the sinning.
Also, from Lev. 5, a bag of flour can be the atonement sacrifice which has no blood.

 

[Aviel]

Jesus being tortured, humiliated and murdered going to and through the cross, is the atonement sacrifice, but He is not the complete atonement process.

According to your post....

@bling You just denied ...

John 3:16

@bling You just denied .

2 Corinthians 5:19

@bling You just denied

John 3:17

so, when you do that, you deny The Cross of Christ.

Never do that.

 

[AlexB23]

According to your post....

@bling You just denied ...

John 3:16

@bling You just denied .

2 Corinthians 5:19

@bling You just denied

John 3:17

so, when you do that, you deny The Cross of Christ.

Never do that.

I agree with you entirely Aviel.


The statement "Jesus being tortured, humiliated and murdered going to and through the cross, is the atonement sacrifice, but He is not the complete atonement process" is a false claim based on an incomplete understanding of the biblical concept of atonement and the role of Jesus' death on the cross.

@bling, let's clarify what the Bible teaches about atonement. In John 3:16, it says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." This verse explains that God sent His Son, Jesus, to be the sacrifice for the sins of the world. In John 3:17, it continues, "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." Here, we see that Jesus came to save us from our sins and reconcile us with God.

Furthermore, 2nd Corinthians 5:19 states, "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation." This verse emphasizes that Jesus' death on the cross was the means by which God reconciled humanity to Himself and made a way for us to be forgiven of our sins.

The false claim by @bling attempts to separate Jesus' death on the cross from the complete atonement process by suggesting that there is more to be done after His sacrifice. However, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus' death was the sufficient and complete payment for our sins. Through faith in Him, we are reconciled to God and granted eternal life (John 3:16). Therefore, Jesus' death on the cross is not only the atonement sacrifice but also the complete atonement process. Pretty cool, isn't it, how Jesus did this for us sinners?

 

[bling]

According to your post....

@bling You just denied ...

John 3:16

@bling You just denied .

2 Corinthians 5:19

@bling You just denied

John 3:17

so, when you do that, you deny The Cross of Christ.

Never do that.

I an talking about the whole atonement process and not just Christ's work with the cross. Yes, we are reconciled through what Christ did and salvation is found in Christ.
Your making assumptions about what I am saying, Is it wrong to say: "Christ is our atonement sacrifice"?

 

[bling]

I agree with you entirely Aviel.


The statement "Jesus being tortured, humiliated and murdered going to and through the cross, is the atonement sacrifice, but He is not the complete atonement process" is a false claim based on an incomplete understanding of the biblical concept of atonement and the role of Jesus' death on the cross.

@bling, let's clarify what the Bible teaches about atonement. In John 3:16, it says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." This verse explains that God sent His Son, Jesus, to be the sacrifice for the sins of the world. In John 3:17, it continues, "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." Here, we see that Jesus came to save us from our sins and reconcile us with God.

Furthermore, 2nd Corinthians 5:19 states, "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation." This verse emphasizes that Jesus' death on the cross was the means by which God reconciled humanity to Himself and made a way for us to be forgiven of our sins.

The false claim by @bling attempts to separate Jesus' death on the cross from the complete atonement process by suggesting that there is more to be done after His sacrifice. However, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus' death was the sufficient and complete payment for our sins. Through faith in Him, we are reconciled to God and granted eternal life (John 3:16). Therefore, Jesus' death on the cross is not only the atonement sacrifice but also the complete atonement process. Pretty cool, isn't it, how Jesus did this for us sinners?

The complete atonement process is found in Lev. 5 for minor sins, so what do you read nd why is that not true?
Lev.4 starts atonement off giving details of what the priest must do, which you should read and understand, but Lev.5 gets into more detail about the individual, so please read Lev. 5 with much thought. I find people with pet theories of atonement skip Lev. 5 all together and might go to Lev. 16, but the day of atonement has some lite symbolic references to Christ, Lev 5 is a closer representation. I will discuss Lev. 16 if you want to take the time, but it takes some explaining of what and why it was needed by itself. Please read Lev. 5 before going further.

Atonement is much more than the sacrifice itself; it is a process which we can see from the Old Testament examples of the atonement process.

We can start with Lev. 5: 3 or if they touch human uncleanness (anything that would make them unclean) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt; 4 or if anyone thoughtlessly takes an oath to do anything, whether good or evil (in any matter one might carelessly swear about) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt— 5 when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned. 6 As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the Lord a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin. … 10 The priest shall then offer the other as a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven.

Lev. 5 is talking about some really minor sins almost accidental sins and very much unintentional sins, there is no atonement process at this time for major sins, intentional direct disobedience toward God (these require banishment or death of the sinner).

The atonement process includes confessing, securing a good offering, personally bringing the offering to the priests at the temple altar, the priest has to offer it correctly and after the atonement process is correctly completed the sinner’s sins will be forgiven.

Note also the relationship between the sinner and the offering, the offering is “as a penalty for the sin” and not a replacement for the sinner. The idea of “penalty” is a “punishment” for the sinner, yet punishment of your child is better translated “disciplining”.

Reading all of Lev. 5: we have a lamb, two doves and a bag of flour all being an atoning sacrifice for the exact same sin, but vary with the wealth of the sinner, yet God does not consider the wealthy person of great value then the poor person, so what is happening? We can only conclude there is an attempt to equalize the hardship on the sinner (penalty/punishment/discipline). In fact, this might be the main factor in the atonement process at least Lev. 5. God is not only forgiving the sins, but seeing to the discipling of the sinner (like any Loving parent tries to do if possible). The problem is it can only be done for minor sins at this time.

Please notice there is an “and” just before “they will be forgiven”, suggesting a separate action, so the forgiveness is not part of the atonement process, but comes afterwards (this will be discussed more later).

Do you see the benefit for the Jewish people (nothing really to help God out here) going through this atonement process? That rich person had to water, feed, hang on to a lamb, he is not the lamb’s shepherd, so for hours waiting in line to get to the priest he fighting this lamb and the poor person may have skipped meals to get that bag of flour, so he has an equal hardship also. They are going to be more careful in the future and those around them will not want to go through the same thing. Yes, they can experience worship, forgiveness, and fellowship in the process.

We should be able to extrapolate up from extremely minor sins to rebellious disobedience directly against God, but that is a huge leap, so the hardship on the sinner will have to be horrendous, the sacrifice of much greater value (penalty for the sinner), and this will take a much greater Priest.

Please think up some questions to ask me.

 

[AlexB23]

The complete atonement process is found in Lev. 5 for minor sins, so what do you read nd why is that not true?
Lev.4 starts atonement off giving details of what the priest must do, which you should read and understand, but Lev.5 gets into more detail about the individual, so please read Lev. 5 with much thought. I find people with pet theories of atonement skip Lev. 5 all together and might go to Lev. 16, but the day of atonement has some lite symbolic references to Christ, Lev 5 is a closer representation. I will discuss Lev. 16 if you want to take the time, but it takes some explaining of what and why it was needed by itself. Please read Lev. 5 before going further.

Atonement is much more than the sacrifice itself; it is a process which we can see from the Old Testament examples of the atonement process.

We can start with Lev. 5: 3 or if they touch human uncleanness (anything that would make them unclean) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt; 4 or if anyone thoughtlessly takes an oath to do anything, whether good or evil (in any matter one might carelessly swear about) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt— 5 when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned. 6 As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the Lord a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin. … 10 The priest shall then offer the other as a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven.

Lev. 5 is talking about some really minor sins almost accidental sins and very much unintentional sins, there is no atonement process at this time for major sins, intentional direct disobedience toward God (these require banishment or death of the sinner).

The atonement process includes confessing, securing a good offering, personally bringing the offering to the priests at the temple altar, the priest has to offer it correctly and after the atonement process is correctly completed the sinner’s sins will be forgiven.

Note also the relationship between the sinner and the offering, the offering is “as a penalty for the sin” and not a replacement for the sinner. The idea of “penalty” is a “punishment” for the sinner, yet punishment of your child is better translated “disciplining”.

Reading all of Lev. 5: we have a lamb, two doves and a bag of flour all being an atoning sacrifice for the exact same sin, but vary with the wealth of the sinner, yet God does not consider the wealthy person of great value then the poor person, so what is happening? We can only conclude there is an attempt to equalize the hardship on the sinner (penalty/punishment/discipline). In fact, this might be the main factor in the atonement process at least Lev. 5. God is not only forgiving the sins, but seeing to the discipling of the sinner (like any Loving parent tries to do if possible). The problem is it can only be done for minor sins at this time.

Please notice there is an “and” just before “they will be forgiven”, suggesting a separate action, so the forgiveness is not part of the atonement process, but comes afterwards (this will be discussed more later).

Do you see the benefit for the Jewish people (nothing really to help God out here) going through this atonement process? That rich person had to water, feed, hang on to a lamb, he is not the lamb’s shepherd, so for hours waiting in line to get to the priest he fighting this lamb and the poor person may have skipped meals to get that bag of flour, so he has an equal hardship also. They are going to be more careful in the future and those around them will not want to go through the same thing. Yes, they can experience worship, forgiveness, and fellowship in the process.

We should be able to extrapolate up from extremely minor sins to rebellious disobedience directly against God, but that is a huge leap, so the hardship on the sinner will have to be horrendous, the sacrifice of much greater value (penalty for the sinner), and this will take a much greater Priest.

Please think up some questions to ask me.

I appreciate your thorough exploration of the atonement process as outlined in Leviticus 5. Your analysis sheds light on the importance of confession, offering a penalty or punishment, and the role of the priest in securing forgiveness for minor sins, but I do not feel that this applies in the New Testament. We must still confess directly to Jesus, or through a priest (or both), and a fair punishment may be necessary for some sins, but the sacrifices of animals are not necessary.

Just have a few questions for you, so you can clear some things up:

1. Given that Leviticus 5 primarily deals with minor sins, how do you interpret the role of the Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16) in relation to the complete atonement process for major sins?
2. In your opinion, what is the significance of the sacrifice's value (lamb, two doves, or a bag of flour) in relation to the sinner's wealth and hardship?
3. How does the concept of "discipline" (penalty/punishment) as described in Leviticus 5 influence your understanding of the atonement process and the relationship between God and humans?
4. Do you believe the Old Testament atonement process provides a clear picture of the New Testament concept of Christ's sacrifice as the only atonement for our sins? If so, how?
5. What do you make of the distinction between intentional and unintentional sins in the Old Testament atonement process, and how does this relate to our understanding of sin and forgiveness today?

 

[RandyPNW]

Born Again, refers to a Spiritual Birth that happens when the Spirit of God, birth's a Believer's Spirit as "born again", into the Spirit of God.

This is to become a '"new Creation, in Christ". as "One with God".

Our spirits do not become perfect when we are Born Again. We become participants in the Divine Nature--but we do not yet become perfect--not until we put off our old selves at death.

We can choose to reject our old selves now, and that's the course we're on. But perfection comes for us later, when we rise from the dead.

 

[bling]

I appreciate your thorough exploration of the atonement process as outlined in Leviticus 5. Your analysis sheds light on the importance of confession, offering a penalty or punishment, and the role of the priest in securing forgiveness for minor sins, but I do not feel that this applies in the New Testament. We must still confess directly to Jesus, or through a priest (or both), and a fair punishment may be necessary for some sins, but the sacrifices of animals are not necessary.

You say: “I do not feel that this applies in the New Testament’. What I learned in Bible 101 is, the five most important factor to translate scripture is: context, context, context, context and context.

Most of the New Testament is said to, or written to Jewish Christians, and Gentile Christians with Jews around to explain through their own experiences with Old Testament practices. These letters were not written to us directly. A big part of everyday at the temple was sin sacrifices. Most male Jews would have participated, at some time in their life, individual unintentional sin sacrifices (everyone sins like this sometime in their life). They would have participated in the atonement process, so when they hear the word “atonement” and “sin sacrifice”, they would easily relate to the meaning, since they participated in atonement. If the meaning changed it would need to be explained.

Just have a few questions for you, so you can clear some things up:

1. Given that Leviticus 5 primarily deals with minor sins, how do you interpret the role of the Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16) in relation to the complete atonement process for major sins?

First off and very importantly is the fact, “The Day of Atonement” sacrifices did nothing for “major sins”, rebellious disobedience toward God. Leviticus addresses several types of sin and guilt: unintentional sins (where there is atonement and forgiveness), sins against you neighbor (lust, greed, lying, stilling) (this requires some pay back, penalty, but can be atoned for and forgiven), and there are rebellious disobedience directly against God (these have no atonement sacrifices, no forgiveness and require death or banishment). This only leaves one other type of guilt and sin: Those you are not sure you even committed, but are worried you might have (this is like unintentional sins, but unintentional sins you have to come to the knowledge you committed). These sins you are not certain of is what the Day of Atonement is to resolve, but the day of atonement does remind the person each year the sins they previously committed and were not forgiven, by the Law.

If your not sure you even committed a sin, the feeling of guilt is what needs to be removed, so there is this very ceremonial act to help relieve your guilt. There is no torturing to death of either animal and the scape goat lives, so how would they be taking the place of sinful man? We can dive deeper into this if you want.

2. In your opinion, what is the significance of the sacrifice's value (lamb, two doves, or a bag of flour) in relation to the sinner's wealth and hardship?

The different sacrifices for unintentional sins are to equalize the hardship (discipline) on the sinner. Wealthy people are not more guilty of the same sin, than a poor person.

3. How does the concept of "discipline" (penalty/punishment) as described in Leviticus 5 influence your understanding of the atonement process and the relationship between God and humans?

I see the hardship on the sinner being a fair/just discipline for unintentional sins (almost accidental sins), the sinner will be more careful in the future and those familiar with all the sinner went through will also be more careful. The sinner can put the sin behind him now and move on. There was worship involved that should help the sinner to grow. The sinner experiencing Loving discipline correctly will feel God’s Love (Loving parent discipline their children). It also helps you realize, if you have to go through this kind of hardship for very minor sins, how much hardship discipline should you go through for rebellious disobedience (it would have to be the worst experience you could [ like being personally responsible for killing the Messiah?]).

4. Do you believe the Old Testament atonement process provides a clear picture of the New Testament concept of Christ's sacrifice as the only atonement for our sins? If so, how?

The Lev. 5 experience would be just a shadow of what Christ going to the cross because of my sins and not a clear picture. It helps define a atonement process, but the cross will still be initially a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles.

5. What do you make of the distinction between intentional and unintentional sins in the Old Testament atonement process, and how does this relate to our understanding of sin and forgiveness today?

There are degrees of punishment and discipline for different sins, the same as parents have different degrees of discipline for their own children depending on the severity of the offence. The problem for today is: all mature adults commit severe rebellious disobedience and thus have the option of humbly correctly accepting sever discipline or refusing the discipline and thus accepting the punishment.

I am not seeing the New Testament addressing “unintentional sins”, but all sins (except those against the Spirit) can be forgiven and you can humbly accept the discipline.

 

[AlexB23]

You say: “I do not feel that this applies in the New Testament’. What I learned in Bible 101 is, the five most important factor to translate scripture is: context, context, context, context and context.

Most of the New Testament is said to, or written to Jewish Christians, and Gentile Christians with Jews around to explain through their own experiences with Old Testament practices. These letters were not written to us directly. A big part of everyday at the temple was sin sacrifices. Most male Jews would have participated, at some time in their life, individual unintentional sin sacrifices (everyone sins like this sometime in their life). They would have participated in the atonement process, so when they hear the word “atonement” and “sin sacrifice”, they would easily relate to the meaning, since they participated in atonement. If the meaning changed it would need to be explained.

First off and very importantly is the fact, “The Day of Atonement” sacrifices did nothing for “major sins”, rebellious disobedience toward God. Leviticus addresses several types of sin and guilt: unintentional sins (where there is atonement and forgiveness), sins against you neighbor (lust, greed, lying, stilling) (this requires some pay back, penalty, but can be atoned for and forgiven), and there are rebellious disobedience directly against God (these have no atonement sacrifices, no forgiveness and require death or banishment). This only leaves one other type of guilt and sin: Those you are not sure you even committed, but are worried you might have (this is like unintentional sins, but unintentional sins you have to come to the knowledge you committed). These sins you are not certain of is what the Day of Atonement is to resolve, but the day of atonement does remind the person each year the sins they previously committed and were not forgiven, by the Law.

If your not sure you even committed a sin, the feeling of guilt is what needs to be removed, so there is this very ceremonial act to help relieve your guilt. There is no torturing to death of either animal and the scape goat lives, so how would they be taking the place of sinful man? We can dive deeper into this if you want.

The different sacrifices for unintentional sins are to equalize the hardship (discipline) on the sinner. Wealthy people are not more guilty of the same sin, than a poor person.

I see the hardship on the sinner being a fair/just discipline for unintentional sins (almost accidental sins), the sinner will be more careful in the future and those familiar with all the sinner went through will also be more careful. The sinner can put the sin behind him now and move on. There was worship involved that should help the sinner to grow. The sinner experiencing Loving discipline correctly will feel God’s Love (Loving parent discipline their children). It also helps you realize, if you have to go through this kind of hardship for very minor sins, how much hardship discipline should you go through for rebellious disobedience (it would have to be the worst experience you could [ like being personally responsible for killing the Messiah?]).

The Lev. 5 experience would be just a shadow of what Christ going to the cross because of my sins and not a clear picture. It helps define a atonement process, but the cross will still be initially a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles.

There are degrees of punishment and discipline for different sins, the same as parents have different degrees of discipline for their own children depending on the severity of the offence. The problem for today is: all mature adults commit severe rebellious disobedience and thus have the option of humbly correctly accepting sever discipline or refusing the discipline and thus accepting the punishment.

I am not seeing the New Testament addressing “unintentional sins”, but all sins (except those against the Spirit) can be forgiven and you can humbly accept the discipline.

@bling, I appreciate your thoughtful responses and the effort you put into explaining the context of the Old Testament atonement process. Your points about the Day of Atonement, the significance of sacrifice's value, and the concept of discipline are well taken. I agree that the Old Testament provides a foundation for understanding the atonement process, but it is important to remember that the New Testament introduces Jesus as the ultimate sacrifice and our only means of forgiveness.

Regarding your question about the distinction between intentional and unintentional sins in the Old Testament atonement process, I believe it is an important concept to consider when understanding sin and forgiveness today. In the Old Testament, unintentional sins were those committed without deliberate intention or knowledge, while intentional sins were committed knowingly and with full awareness. The difference in the response to these two types of sins highlights God's desire for repentance and restoration, rather than punishment for its own sake.

In the New Testament, we see that all sin, whether intentional or unintentional, can be forgiven through faith in Jesus and His sacrifice. However, it is essential to understand that true repentance involves acknowledging our sin, confessing it to God, and turning away from it. This process of repentance is a reflection of the atonement process in the Old Testament, where confession and discipline played a crucial role in restoring the relationship between God and the sinner.

Ultimately, the Old Testament atonement process provides valuable insights into God's character, His desire for relationship with us, and the importance of repentance and forgiveness. The New Testament builds upon this foundation by revealing Jesus as the perfect sacrifice who has made atonement for all sin, making it possible for us to be reconciled to God and live in His presence.

 

[bling]

@bling, I appreciate your thoughtful responses and the effort you put into explaining the context of the Old Testament atonement process. Your points about the Day of Atonement, the significance of sacrifice's value, and the concept of discipline are well taken. I agree that the Old Testament provides a foundation for understanding the atonement process, but it is important to remember that the New Testament introduces Jesus as the ultimate sacrifice and our only means of forgiveness.

Regarding your question about the distinction between intentional and unintentional sins in the Old Testament atonement process, I believe it is an important concept to consider when understanding sin and forgiveness today. In the Old Testament, unintentional sins were those committed without deliberate intention or knowledge, while intentional sins were committed knowingly and with full awareness. The difference in the response to these two types of sins highlights God's desire for repentance and restoration, rather than punishment for its own sake.

In the New Testament, we see that all sin, whether intentional or unintentional, can be forgiven through faith in Jesus and His sacrifice. However, it is essential to understand that true repentance involves acknowledging our sin, confessing it to God, and turning away from it. This process of repentance is a reflection of the atonement process in the Old Testament, where confession and discipline played a crucial role in restoring the relationship between God and the sinner.

Ultimately, the Old Testament atonement process provides valuable insights into God's character, His desire for relationship with us, and the importance of repentance and forgiveness. The New Testament builds upon this foundation by revealing Jesus as the perfect sacrifice who has made atonement for all sin, making it possible for us to be reconciled to God and live in His presence.

I like and agree with what you are saying but one small point which may not even be what you are saying:

Christ is not making atonement for us, Christ is providing a way for us to obtain atonement with God, but it is not Christ alone for we are to humbly correctly accept the deserved harsh discipline we need.

 

[eleos1954]

Reader...
-
When a person comes to God by Faith in Christ... God gives them "Christ's righteousness" as "the imputed righteousness of Christ'.

This is the "Divine Exchange", whereby Jesus takes your sin, as "God hath made Jesus to BE .Sin....for us".

In other words, Jesus becomes our sin, as If He is the sinner.....= "God hath laid on Jesus the SIN (iniquity) .. of us ALL"..

Isaiah 53:6

That is John 3:16..... and 2 Corinthians 5:19... and Romans 3:17.

And what do we become now that Jesus has become our sin bearer?

We, the Born again become .."Made Righteous".... "made free from sin".. having Become..."THE Righteousness of God, in Christ"

How do we get that?

= "imputed righteousness" as "THE GIFT of Righteousness".

So, that is how we start as CHRISTians.......... and only 2 seconds earlier we were SINNERS, unforgiven..

Now, we are "made righteous", "Saints".

There is our Salvation...

But now, the next day starts and there you are born again, made righteous, and yet you have wrong thought patterns and you have habits and behavior issues, that are of the MIND.......not the Spirit.. as the Spirit is born again, but your MIND is not.

So, the process of Discipleship, the literal important part, is not trying to be some fake imitation of Christ.......but its to understand fully, who you have become, as a "new Creation IN Christ"....as learning what this is all about, is how you "work out your Salvation".

See reader, if you are born again, and not just water baptized and religious.... YOU ALREADY HAVE SALVATION....... AND NOW you are to learn how to exist in it., correctly.... = by gaining all the revelation knowledge that is available to you, so that you get your mind in line with God's perspective of you.

Baby Christians, do not have this yet., and they can be 50 yrs saved.
Mature BELIEVERS, do have the REVELATION.... and the mature believer, is this one...Paul teaches....>"as many as be PERFECT">.

And that means that you have attained to God's perspective regarding what it means to be a "new Creation in Christ".

If you dont have it.....you'll be talking about sin a lot.. You'll be trying to confess sin... You'll believe you can lose your salvation... You'll talk about Law and commandments a lot,.. You will believe that water washed away your sin.... and you will have no understanding of the Cross of Christ.

We are always in the position of choice.

A sinner cannot be saved without repentance. Thus, repentance is a condition to salvation.

Acts 2:38-39; Proverbs 28:19; 1 John 1:9; 2 Chronicles 7:14.

A sinner is justified by God when he repents.

 

[AlexB23]

I like and agree with what you are saying but one small point which may not even be what you are saying:

Christ is not making atonement for us, Christ is providing a way for us to obtain atonement with God, but it is not Christ alone for we are to humbly correctly accept the deserved harsh discipline we need.

Agreed. We must wholeheartedly accept Jesus into us, and accept that there will be tribulations in this life.

 

[Guojing]

According to your post....

@bling You just denied ...

John 3:16

John 3:16 has nothing to do with the cross, you should understand "believe in him" contextually based on John 20:31.

Both verses are the author's additional commentary into the book of John. Jesus himself never said John 3:16.