Full Preterist Safe House

FreeGrace2

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Jesus went to Paradise to take all saints to heaven. That's the usual interp from Eph 4:8 - This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he led many captives and gave gifts to his people.”
There's nothing that says the saints have left paradise.
Well then, we just understand Eph 4:8 differently.

When Jesus visited Hades, where would He have "led many captives" to then?
 
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robycop3

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Jesus went to Paradise to take all saints to heaven. That's the usual interp from Eph 4:8 - This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he led many captives and gave gifts to his people.”

Well then, we just understand Eph 4:8 differently.

When Jesus visited Hades, where would He have "led many captives" to then?
The souls in paradise are not captives.
 
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FreeGrace2

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The souls in paradise are not captives.
lol. Were they free to go any place else?

Could they go visit the rich man where Lazarus ate at his gate?

Could they take a wander down the hall to where angels were imprisoned. Just to see how they're doing?

If you can prove "yes" to any of these questions, then you would be right about them being not captives.
 
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Ed Parenteau

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Not all of the disciples saw His transfiguration, nor were present at His death. But the simple FACT is, Jesus hasn't yet returned.
So, you're claiming that the transfiguration was Jesus "coming in His kingdom". And if the transfiguration was Jesus "coming in His kingdom", then what are you waiting for?
 
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robycop3

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lol. Were they free to go any place else?

Could they go visit the rich man where Lazarus ate at his gate?

Could they take a wander down the hall to where angels were imprisoned. Just to see how they're doing?

If you can prove "yes" to any of these questions, then you would be right about them being not captives.

They can likely go anywhere in paradise they want.

Now-I don't consider myself a captive, although I can't go to over 99.999999999% of the known universe. Shoot, I can't even go to 90% of the earth. But I'm not a captive. I'm not in jail. No one's holding me at gunpoint. I'm not tied up.
 
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FreeGrace2

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They can likely go anywhere in paradise they want.

Now-I don't consider myself a captive, although I can't go to over 99.999999999% of the known universe. Shoot, I can't even go to 90% of the earth. But I'm not a captive. I'm not in jail. No one's holding me at gunpoint. I'm not tied up.
Then just who are the "captives" that are mentioned in Eph 4:8 -
This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.” and where did He take them?
 
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Ed Parenteau

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Know anything else that fulfills the prophecy?
The problem futurism has is that it forces a contradiction onto the Bible.
It is this: How can "not now and not near" be a shorter time than "now and near"?
Balaam's Fourth Oracle (From Balaam to David and ultimately to Christ is about 1500 years.

Numbers 24…16the prophecy of one who hears the words of God, who has knowledge from the Most High, who sees a vision from the Almighty, who bows down with eyes wide open: 17I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come forth from Jacob, and a scepter will arise from Israel. He will crush the skulls of Moab and strike down all the sons of Sheth. 18Edom will become a possession, as will Seir, his enemy; but Israel will perform with valor.…

It was approx. 500 years until David became king and crushed Moab and approx. 1500 years until it's final fulfillment in the first coming of Christ(Matthew 2.2-Hebrews 1:8).

Romans 13: 11And do this, understanding the occasion. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12The night is nearly over; the day has drawn near. So let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.

James 5 7Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer awaits the precious fruit of the soil—how patient he is for the fall and spring rains. 8You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

As to the second coming and Jesus coming in His kingdom, and who will see Him and how He will be seen.

Luke 17:20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed,

Matthew 26: (These are the ones who crucified Him and pierced Him)
64Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


John 14:
(Jesus is soon to be crucified.)
18“I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you. 19After a little while, the world no longer is going to see Me, but you are going to see Me; because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I in you. 21The one who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and the one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him.” 22Judas (not Iscariot) *said to Him, “Lord, what has happened that You are going to reveal Yourself to us and not to the world?” 23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will follow My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our dwelling with him. 24The one who does not love Me does not follow My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
 
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parousia70

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Jesus went to Paradise to take all saints to heaven. That's the usual interp from Eph 4:8 - This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he led many captives and gave gifts to his people.”

Well then, we just understand Eph 4:8 differently.

When Jesus visited Hades, where would He have "led many captives" to then?
Then just who are the "captives" that are mentioned in Eph 4:8 -
This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.” and where did He take them?

This is, sadly, an all too common misreading of Ephesians 4:7-10, which could be corrected if people would only read their Bibles, and let scripture interpret scripture, instead of interpreting it the way that simply "sounds good" to them.

The "captivity" that a triumphant King would "lead captive" was his bound enemies. The victorious king would lead a parade through town, marching his bound prisoners in a public display to shame them and gloat over them (Col 1:15 uses this concept too). That is why bible expositors discussing Eph 4:8 often point to the broken dominion of the enemies Satan (1 Jn 3:8; Col 1:15), sin (Rom 6:14), and death (Rom 6:9 ) -- these were the "captivity" that Christ led away as his captives. So the "captivity" one leads captive are one's enemies who have been triumphed over. This notion is also the sense of Psalm 68:17-18 concerning the exodus, Sinai and the defeat of the pagans in the promised land.

Additionally, in the spectacle of the public parade the King receives gifts in homage (Ps 68:18,29,31) and he generously distributes the spoils of war to his own citizens (Ps 68:19). With Christ, he distributes the spoils of his war unto the Church in the form of the charismata given unto mankind, making them Chosen apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers with him (Eph 4:8,11)

Here's Matthew Henry with some fine scholarship on the subject for your edification:

"As great conquerors, when they rode in their triumphal chariots, used to be attended with the most illustrious of their captives led in chains, and were wont to scatter their largesses and bounty among the soldiers and other spectators of their triumphs, so Christ, when he ascended into heaven, as a triumphant conqueror, led captivity captive. It is a phrase used in the Old Testament to signify a conquest over enemies, especially over such as formerly had led others captive; see Jdg. 5:12. Captivity is here put for captives, and signifies all our spiritual enemies, who brought us into captivity before. He conquered those who had conquered us; such as sin, the devil, and death. Indeed, he triumphed over these on the cross; but the triumph was completed at his ascension, when he became Lord over all, and had the keys of death and hades put into his hands."

The "captivity" that Christ "lead away captive" were His defeated enemies, and not the saved souls in Hades.

Resurrection is the ONLY vehicle by which the saved dead are RAISED from Hades into the Heights of Heaven. That does not happen, indeed CAN NOT HAPPEN, until 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 and Revelation 20:12-15 are FULFILLED.
 
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parousia70

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Kings reign. That's what they do. Jesus comes back as KING. And you just dismiss it. Jesus has NOT reigned as King yet. So the time between David and Jesus, and from Jesus' First Advent does not represent anyone's reign.

Jesus Christ, is God and REIGNING King over this world (over all of heaven and earth) TODAY:

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Ephesians 1:19-23
He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1 Peter 3:22
Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Revelation 1:5-6
Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever.

I Get that you don't believe these passages are LITERAL, but there they are anyway.

I can loan you a sharpie if you need to redact them from your Bible since they don't fit your paradigm.
 
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robycop3

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Partial and full preterist views have more going for them than other views which seem like hogwash to me but I am not very concerned about it because God knows and I trust in Him.
Actually, preterism doesn't have one thing going for it. The events preterists SAY have already happened HAVE NOT yet happened. History proves that.
 
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parousia70

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Why is full pertrism deemed heretical?
Because to goes against the Historic Creeds which testify of a post 70AD coming and resurrection.
Since Heresy is not a Biblical term but is a term coined by the Church, it therefore can not be quantified Biblically, and must be quantified through the teachings of the Church that coined it. Traditionally, any teaching that counters that which is found in the already argued and settled Creedal proclamations, has been deemed heretical by the Church, the only entity authorized to determine what is Heresy and what is not.

The Church is of course free to amend the creeds at any point, but so far has not chosen to do so.
Individuals are of course free to reject the Creeds as well.
 
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parousia70

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A better term for preterism, both full & partial, is APOSTATE, as it denies some of Jesus' words about His return.

It's actually Futurism that Denies Jesus' words about His return.
 
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