Faith Precedes Regeneration

[bcbsr]

Gal 3:26 "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus"

Since one is regenerate "through faith", therefore faith must precede regeneration.

And further proof of this comes from John 1:12 "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God"

So one does not even receive the right to become a child of God until they have believed.

Thus, contrary to Calvinism, faith precedes regeneration.

Objections?

 

[Skala]

Gal 3:26 "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus"

Since one is regenerate "through faith", therefore faith must precede regeneration.

And further proof of this comes from John 1:12 "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God"

So one does not even receive the right to become a child of God until they have believed.

Thus, contrary to Calvinism, faith precedes regeneration.

Objections?

The verse you cited didn't actually say anything about the new birth.

It seems you're reading more into that verse than the author actually wrote. That's called eisegesis (reading extra information into text)

"becoming a child of God" sounds more like adoption to me, not regeneration.

Remember, there are many facets of salvation, such as foreknown, elected, predestined, , regeneration, adoption, justification, sanctification, etc

You are claiming that the verse above is specifically about regeneration. On what basis are you claiming that?

 

[bcbsr]

Well look at the thread right after this own entitled (Regeneration precedes faith). Foghorn, who is one of you Calvinists says this:

How do we know regeneration precedes faith? Because God says so.

"everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God", 1 John 5:1 Simply put, those who are not yet born of God cannot believe.

Maybe you need to get together with Foghorn and decided what Calvinism teaches about the phrase "born of God", whether it's referring to regeneration or not. Get back to me when you Calvinists get your story straight.

thanks

 

[BryanW92]

Get back to me when you Calvinists get your story straight.

thanks

Our "story" is this:

This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it. (WCF 10.2 emphasis added)

Proof texts: 2 Tim 1:9, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 9:11, 1 Cor 2:14, Rom 8:7-9, Titus 3:4-5, John 6:37, Ezek 36:27, 1 John 5:1,

 

[bcbsr]

In referencing 1John 5:1 Byran is taking a stand against Skala who says above that becoming a child of God is not referring to regeneration. In "Debating a Calvinist" as this forum is so entitled, it would be good if Calvinists entering the debate actual understood what Calvinism teaches. Both Foghorn and Byran are correct in associating "born of God" with regeneration according to Calvinism. John Calvin himself affirms this in his commentary on that verse.

So now that we've established that according to Calvinism "born of God" refers to regeneration, how do Calvinists respond to my original verses at the beginning of this thread. Once again I repeat

Gal 3:26 "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus"

Since one is regenerate "through faith", therefore faith must precede regeneration.

And further proof of this comes from John 1:12 "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God"

So one does not even receive the right to become a child of God until they have believed.

Thus it appears, contrary to Calvinism, faith precedes regeneration.

 

[BryanW92]

And further proof of this comes from John 1:12 "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God"

So one does not even receive the right to become a child of God until they have believed.

Thus it appears, contrary to Calvinism, faith precedes regeneration.

Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not or anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on him and his righteousness, by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God. (WCF 11.1 emphasis added)

 

[bcbsr]

Bryan,
Your statement doesn't speak to the verses at hand. The Calvinist position is that being born of God precedes coming to faith in Christ, which verses like John 1:12 and Gal 3:26 clearly disproves.

 

[BryanW92]

Bryan,
Your statement doesn't speak to the verses at hand. The Calvinist position is that being born of God precedes coming to faith in Christ, which verses like John 1:12 and Gal 3:26 clearly disproves.

Read it again then. It says, "which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God". In our beliefs, God grants us the ability to believe in him and have faith.

I did not address Gal 3:26 because the WCF's position on John 1:12 is clear.

 

[bcbsr]

First of all John Calvin himself did not believe Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches faith to be a gift from God. And there are good exegetical reasons why, which I go into in my study guide at Ephesians 2:1-10

Secondly you seem to have a misconception of what a "debate" is. Without any analysis of the verses at hand you simply state WCF's hypothesis and some how think you've progressed in this debate. The WFC statement you quoted makes no reference to John 1:12, let alone Gal 3:26, and if anything would seem to contradict what those verses ACTUALLY AND EXPLICITLY STATE. So it seems you're telling me that WFC overrides the Bible. Is that about right?

Is there some other Calvinist out there who would like to debate Calvinism, BASED UPON WHAT THE BIBLE ACTUALLY SAYS, rather that based upon what "WFC" says?

 

[BryanW92]

First of all John Calvin himself did not believe Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches faith to be a gift from God. And there are good exegetical reasons why, which I go into in my study guide at Ephesians 2:1-10

Secondly you seem to have a misconception of what a "debate" is. Without any analysis of the verses at hand you simply state WCF's hypothesis and some how think you've progressed in this debate. The WFC statement you quoted makes no reference to John 1:12, let alone Gal 3:26, and if anything would seem to contradict what those verses ACTUALLY AND EXPLICITLY STATE. So it seems you're telling me that WFC overrides the Bible. Is that about right?

Is there some other Calvinist out there who would like to debate Calvinism, BASED UPON WHAT THE BIBLE ACTUALLY SAYS, rather that based upon what "WFC" says?

I'm quoting the WCF because you have taken the position that if two Calvinists do not have the exact same understanding then it disproves Calvinism. So, since it is very important to you that we maintain consistency, I am quoting the consistent Confession that we all agree with.

I gave you the the proof texts for the parts of the WCF that I am quoting to show that they are based on scripture and I agree with the bible.

I'm not trying to progress the debate because I accept your beliefs are valid Christian beliefs so I don't feel a need to convert you, and since you do not get a vote in my salvation, I don't need to defeat you to be saved.

You came here looking for a fight. Now you're mad because I won't give you one. I am saved by the blood of Christ and redeemed by his perfect life. I choose to be Calvinist because it makes sense to me, but Calvin is not my savior. Believe what you want, as long as Jesus is at the center of your beliefs.

 

[bcbsr]

Bryan,

I would first respond by asking you why you are on this "Debate a Calvinist" Forum? You say, "You came here looking for a fight." and then bear false witnesses against me saying, "Now you're mad because I won't give you one." I came here on this "Debate a Calvinist" Forum to Debate a Calvinist. You yourself claim you're not willing to debate. So why are you writing on this forum? Maybe you should find another forum where Calvinists can discuss with other Calvinists what they already agree upon.

Secondly you make the false claim, "I'm quoting the WCF because you have taken the position that if two Calvinists do not have the exact same understanding then it disproves Calvinism." I made no such claim. But if I'm to debate a Calvinist, then the question is, what constitutes "Calvinism"?

And while you claim your quoting WCF was directed purely to fellow Calvinists so that they could be on the same page, you also said this, "I did not address Gal 3:26 because the WCF's position on John 1:12 is clear.", which was directed to not fellow Calvinists but to me. In saying this you're telling me your answer to my original question is simply - because WCF says so.

And the alleged "proof texts" don't prove your point. Proof Texts: Gal 3:26; John 1:12 I agree with what the Bible says.

 

[BryanW92]

Get back to me when you Calvinists get your story straight.

thanks

it would be good if Calvinists entering the debate actual understood what Calvinism teaches.

Secondly you make the false claim, "I'm quoting the WCF because you have taken the position that if two Calvinists do not have the exact same understanding then it disproves Calvinism." I made no such claim. But if I'm to debate a Calvinist, then the question is, what constitutes "Calvinism"?

In your own words.

 

[BryanW92]

Bryan,



And while you claim your quoting WCF was directed purely to fellow Calvinists so that they could be on the same page, you also said this, "I did not address Gal 3:26 because the WCF's position on John 1:12 is clear.", which was directed to not fellow Calvinists but to me. In saying this you're telling me your answer to my original question is simply - because WCF says so.

And the alleged "proof texts" don't prove your point. Proof Texts: Gal 3:26; John 1:12 I agree with what the Bible says.

I did not directly address Gal 3:26 because what I quoted from the WCF with regards to John 1:12 addresses that in the same way. Your faith comes from God. Your regeneration comes from God. Neither causes the other, but God creates both.

I was not directing the WCF quotes directly to other Calvinists. I was quoting so you would know, and any other Calvinists would be reminded, of what our Confession states.

 

[Daniel924927]

Gal 3:26 "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus"

Since one is regenerate "through faith", therefore faith must precede regeneration.

And further proof of this comes from John 1:12 "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God"

So one does not even receive the right to become a child of God until they have believed.

Thus, contrary to Calvinism, faith precedes regeneration.

Objections?

It would seem so but not necessarily .
For example if God had already decided from the very beginning that the saved would believed in his name and whatever choice any makes ( concerning salvation ) that , HE - GOD already decided they would make that choice .