EnemyPartyII is going to renounce her homosexuality

[Zaac]

Again, yall are wasting time going back and forth with her on this. She trusts the Words in red, but the rest she is suspect of.

Unless a person is led by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, it is impossible to explain that all Scripture is God's Word and thus ALL the Word of Christ since He IS the Word.

This is a salvation issue. Not a convince me that homosexuality is wrong issue.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Again, yall are wasting time going back and forth with her on this. She trusts the Words in red, but the rest she is suspect of.

As all rational, thinking Christians should be. Thats why God gave us brains! But for recognising and understanding my position (reps on route)

Unless a person is led by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, it is impossible to explain that all Scripture is God's Word and thus ALL the Word of Christ since He IS the Word.

I think I have the Holy Spirit indwelling... he tells me differently.

This is a salvation issue. Not a convince me that homosexuality is wrong issue.

Well, heres the thing... as far as salvation goes, homosexuality surely comes under the area of "works". I mean, I have faith in Christ, so as far as Faith goes, I'm good. Now, I want to be a good person and have a net positive effect in the world, (a la the new commandment) and I don't see any reason why something that can't be shown on any logical or rational grounds to be a bad thing should be counter to that.

Did you read my OP? I mean, if you want to convince me homosexuality is wrong, within the framework I have laid out, you are more than welcome.

although to be honest, at this point I'd be happy with someone telling me they think my conditions are reasonable, rather than the past few hundred posts of semantic arguments about why a few scriptural verses should be enough, and how I'm not a real Christian because I don't believe Bright Morning Star's personal interpretation of scripture is inerrant.

 

[MercyBurst]

I follow the teachings of Jesus. I don't see any way in which my homosexuality brings me into conflict with following Christ.

I was not a believer for 28 years of my life. If somebody told me they were a Christian and they were bedding down with somebody, I didn't take them seriously back then (when I wasn't a Christian). Nobody had to tell me that. So why should I take you seriously now?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I was not a believer for 28 years of my life. If somebody told me they were a Christian and they were bedding down with somebody, I didn't take them seriously back then (when I wasn't a Christian). Nobody had to tell me that. So why should I take you seriously now?

I agree with you.

But then, I don't consider a two year monogomous intimate relationship to be the same as mere "bedding down"

 

[Zaac]

I think I have the Holy Spirit indwelling... he tells me differently.

If you got it, you would know, not think.

The Holy Spirit delivers truth. Something is delivering lies to you.

Well, heres the thing... as far as salvation goes, homosexuality surely comes under the area of "works". I mean, I have faith in Christ, so as far as Faith goes, I'm good. Now, I want to be a good person and have a net positive effect in the world, (a la the new commandment) and I don't see any reason why something that can't be shown on any logical or rational grounds to be a bad thing should be counter to that.

No it doesn't anymore than heterosexuality comes under the area of works. Us wanting to be good doesn't blot out sin.

You want to limit God to the extent that your limited logical and rational mind can conceive. That would make him you and not GOD.

You're basically saying that you believe the Holy Spirit came upon a virgin and impregnated her. That Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. That He he fed five thousand men and women and children with 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread. You believe that he defied the laws of nature and walked on water and calmed the stormy sea. You believe that He died on the cross and said that "It is finished." You believe that some kind of way He came out that grave and told Mary not to cling to Him.

The Words in red. You believe all these wonderful things that defy the logic and rationale of the human mind. Yet you can't believe that that same God in whom you say you have faith is capable of maintaining a little, bitty book?

 

[MercyBurst]

I agree with you.

But then, I don't consider a two year monogomous intimate relationship to be the same as mere "bedding down"

Looking at this from my former perspective as a non-Christian, a two-year live-in relationship wouldn't cut it and the fact you are lesbian -- there was no way I could believe your so-called claim-to-be-a-christian. I'd have no respect for you either -- but don't feel bad because I had no respect for myself either back then. I'm not trying to be hurtful -- I'm just being honest with myself.

As a non-Christian I did a lot of drugs and hung around a lot of sexually immoral people that did everything. If one of them told me they became a christian and still did those things I just wouldn't believe them. Some of them shacked up longer than 2-years in their so-called monogamous relationship. Rarely did any of them ever get married, though I do remember two lesbians breaking up and both of them marrying guys.

 

[Jase]

The Words in red. You believe all these wonderful things that defy the logic and rationale of the human mind. Yet you can't believe that that same God in whom you say you have faith is capable of maintaining a little, bitty book?

Not if he never intended it to be 100% literal ( which he didn't). God inspired the authors to write their perspective. That's why Genesis is a Hebrew song about what the Hebrews thought the universe was like, and how creation was made. That doesn't mean they were right. God had no intention of the Bible being used to explain every single scientific, societal, behavioral concept that would ever present itself in human history. If he did, he would have had to explain to the ancient Hebrews Quantum Physics. Good luck with that one. The Bible would be incomprehensibly long, and unrelatable. So God opted for the more personal authorship approach. Concepts, embedded in ancient societies that can be interpreted and applied to future generations.

I look at the Bible and God like the constitution. The framers of the constitution intended it to be rather vague and has to be interpreted with a changing society. The Supreme Court does the interpreting to determine how to apply old concepts, to a new era. Same with the Bible. We interpret the ancient concepts to reflect the modern day. Which goes against the notion of taking everything literally. People used to take the Bible 100% literally - that's where geocentrists came from. Beyond a reasonable doubt, geocentrism has been disproven. So does the fact that the Earth revolves around the sun in an orbit, disprove the Bible if one takes it 100% literally?

 

[Zaac]

Not if he never intended it to be 100% literal ( which he didn't). God inspired the authors to write their perspective. That's why Genesis is a Hebrew song about what the Hebrews thought the universe was like, and how creation was made. That doesn't mean they were right. God had no intention of the Bible being used to explain every single scientific, societal, behavioral concept that would ever present itself in human history. If he did, he would have had to explain to the ancient Hebrews Quantum Physics. Good luck with that one. The Bible would be incomprehensibly long, and unrelatable. So God opted for the more personal authorship approach. Concepts, embedded in ancient societies that can be interpreted and applied to future generations.

That's just the cry of someone who is looking for an excuse to be disobedient. He literally said exactly what His Word means. You can save all that feel good, psychobabble New ageism, fru fru scientific stuff. There wouldn't be any quantum physics if God hadn't created the heavens and the earth and hung the sun and the moon in the sky just the right way and placed the earth where it is in its orbit.

I look at the Bible and God like the constitution. The framers of the constitution intended it to be rather vague and has to be interpreted with a changing society. The Supreme Court does the interpreting to determine how to apply old concepts, to a new era. Same with the Bible. We interpret the ancient concepts to reflect the modern day. Which goes against the notion of taking everything literally. People used to take the Bible 100% literally - that's where geocentrists came from. Beyond a reasonable doubt, geocentrism has been disproven. So does the fact that the Earth revolves around the sun in an orbit, disprove the Bible if one takes it 100% literally?

You can look at it how you want to. But God is God. He doesn't conform to your viewpoint so you gonna have to break your back and fit yourself to His or be referred to as what He calls a false teacher.

Ain't no geocentrists come from the Bible. The Holy Spirit delivers truth and if folks had been leaning on God for His understanding, the Holy Spirit would have delivered truth.

So again, you can assign that accusation to men who don't listen.

God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He hasn't given a geocentric model in His Word.

You just had a bunch of confused men who didn't go to God to understand what He was saying.

Folks learn, sometimes embarassingly, to stop trying to fit God to their belief.

 

[BAFRIEND]

It is not my job to convince you, not my goal.

In the end, God will have the final word.

GOD.

 

[CraigBaugher]

That's just the cry of someone who is looking for an excuse to be disobedient. He literally said exactly what His Word means. You can save all that feel good, psychobabble New ageism, fru fru scientific stuff. There wouldn't be any quantum physics if God hadn't created the heavens and the earth and hung the sun and the moon in the sky just the right way and placed the earth where it is in its orbit.




You can look at it how you want to. But God is God. He doesn't conform to your viewpoint so you gonna have to break your back and fit yourself to His or be referred to as what He calls a false teacher.

Ain't no geocentrists come from the Bible. The Holy Spirit delivers truth and if folks had been leaning on God for His understanding, the Holy Spirit would have delivered truth.

So again, you can assign that accusation to men who don't listen.

God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He hasn't given a geocentric model in His Word.

You just had a bunch of confused men who didn't go to God to understand what He was saying.

Folks learn, sometimes embarassingly, to stop trying to fit God to their belief.

Wow Zaac... off topic, but... Man dude... who better to intrepet the old testament than the Jews... And Jesus tells you that too. For Jesus told us to listen to the teachings of the Jewish Rabbis as they are experts in the old testament, just don't emulate their behavior. If you want to discuss this, we need to create a new topic under theology. for this is off topic.

 

[Zaac]

Wow Zaac... off topic, but... Man dude... who better to intrepet the old testament than the Jews... And Jesus tells you that too. For Jesus told us to listen to the teachings of the Jewish Rabbis as they are experts in the old testament, just don't emulate their behavior. If you want to discuss this, we need to create a new topic under theology. for this is off topic.

GOD. He is the author. How about listening to him FIRST. When we want to know what an authro means, who better to ask than the author Himself?

I think I know which Scripture you are referring to, but I won't be so presumptious as to surmise and begin an explanation. You care to list what Scripture tells us to listen to the teachings of the Jewish rabbis?(Thanks in advance).

And I went there cause Jase took it there.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

If you got it, you would know, not think.

The Holy Spirit delivers truth. Something is delivering lies to you.

Nope. I have the truth, you have the lies. See how circular that is?
This is why I throw to external information, in this case, logic and empathetic conscience, to break the circular argument.

No it doesn't anymore than heterosexuality comes under the area of works. Us wanting to be good doesn't blot out sin.

Are you suggesting I don't have faith because I'm a homosexual? Because I can't quite understand what you are saying here... something either deals with faith, or works. No third alternative as far as I know.

You want to limit God to the extent that your limited logical and rational mind can conceive. That would make him you and not GOD.

I don't seek to limit God. I'm just telling you that I believe God is a rational being, and would not impose such an onerous burden as life long celibacy on all homosexual people without a very good reason, and, if such a very good reason existing, being an infinitely just God, he would make said reason clearly discoverable.

You're basically saying that you believe the Holy Spirit came upon a virgin and impregnated her.

I don't know that I was talking about that, but yes, thats an article of faith...

That Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead.

Sure...

That He he fed five thousand men and women and children with 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread.

Whether the number was exactly 5,000 or not I might debate, but essentially yes...

You believe that he defied the laws of nature and walked on water and calmed the stormy sea.

Actually, I don't believe he defied the laws of nature, I just believe he has access to naturalistic forces that are unavailable to mortal humans. But essentially, yes, I believe he walked on water and calmed the seas in ways humans could not do.

You believe that He died on the cross and said that "It is finished." You believe that some kind of way He came out that grave and told Mary not to cling to Him.

... and after 40 days ascended into Heaven and is now seated at the right hand of the Father. Yep, I believe all of that.

The Words in red. You believe all these wonderful things that defy the logic and rationale of the human mind.

All of these miraculous, wonderful things occured for a reason, and while they appear miraculous, I dopn't believe they ACTUALLY defy universal logic or laws, but that the achievment of them involved manipulation of the physical universe in accordance with its laws and constants, but in a way beyond the scope or ability of mortals. Interesting discussion some time if you're up for it...[/quote]

Yet you can't believe that that same God in whom you say you have faith is capable of maintaining a little, bitty book?

I never said he COULDN'T... just that he DOESN'T. There are demonstrable errors and transcription faults, translation problems and misuses of the Bible. If it were magically protected by God so it was perfect, inerrant and unalterable, well, first of all every edition of the Bible would be exactly the same, and second, there wouldn't be more than one denomination of Christianity. Heres a really simple proof that God doesn't protect the Bible from errors creeping in... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_errata , if God were protecting the Bible, then the errata would not exist.

As well as all this, I'll reiterate, that I believe God is a loving and logical being, who would not either make homosexuals if he didn't want us to exist, or intend for homosexuals to be celibate without a very good, logical, and most importantly DISCOVERABLE reason.

So... you got a logically consistent reason to think why God wouldn't approve of mutually consenting, loving homosexual relationships?

 

[brightmorningstar]

To EnemyPartyII

Those aren't Christ's teachings. Those are Paul's teachings.

Paul received his revelation not from man but from the risen Lord, (Gal 1) they are Christ’s teachings, This is what Christians believe and why Paul’s letters are in the Bible. You don’t believe some of Christ’s teaching that you claim you follow

 

[brightmorningstar]

To EnemyPartyII

Nope. I have the truth, you have the lies. See how circular that is?

That is but that’s not what Zaac said and what Zaac sadi is right. What is circular is that if you had the Holy Spirit which the scriptures say remind us of the teaching of Jesus which the scriptures record, you wouldn’t be disagreeing with the scriptures.

] This is why I throw to external information, in this case, logic and empathetic conscience, to break the circular argument.

but the Holy Spirit reminds us of what Jesus taught., the writers who wrote about what Jesus said the promised Holy Spirit does, were the ones who wrote the rest of the scriptures. If you external information and your logic and empathetic conscience in that’s as we see on this issue the foolishness of the world. What we do is,
2 Corinthians 10:5 “We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.”
Some of the biggest disbelief is in the church, many people in the world couldn’t care less what Jesus taught, some in the church care very much, they hate what He taught.

 

[MercyBurst]

I was a non-believer that couldn't take "gay-sex practicing christians" seriously. I didn't know much about a bible or red letters, and heard Jesus died on a cross for some important reason unknown to me. Nobody had to tell me gay sex was wrong -- I knew it was wrong and dishonorable for both men and women. Duration of a "monogamous loving" relationship had nothing to do with it. I couldn't respect a girl having sex outside of marriage, and considered it not much better than prostitution. I was shacking up with them and had no respect for myself either as a substance abuser and fornicator.

So tell me why , as a believer in Christ with a much fuller understanding of the Bible, I should take "gay-sex practicing christians" seriously now.

Obviously there is a serious testimony issue here, where "gay christians" can not present the name of Christ with honor to many unbelievers like I was.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Thats right. I knew it was dysfucntional as soon as I thought about the anatomy of men and woman. As it says in Romans God has made it plain in his creation. Gay Christians is an oxymoron. A Christian is one who follows Christ's teaching, not one who identifies themselves with a desire that doesnt follow Christ teaching

 

[Zaac]

So... you got a logically consistent reason to think why God wouldn't approve of mutually consenting, loving homosexual relationships?

You're confused and crying out for attention in the wrong way. If you were as convinced as you say that He would approve, you wouldn't even have to ask someone to provide a reason why He wouldn't.

You would go and keep doing what you want with no concern for anyone proving anything.

You're looking for the truth which says you know that what you think ain't it.

 

[HaloHope]

Strange, neither I or anyone else I know grew up thinking homosexuality was morally wrong. Its not "common sense" or ingrained into humans that its wrong it depends on how you were raised, and the society around you as a whole.

It not at all dysfunctional for humans to have homosexual intimacy as despite the claims made otherwise the many happy sexually active homosexual couples out there prove that two people of the same-sex fit together just fine, to claim otherwise is nonsense and just ignoring reality.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

You're confused and crying out for attention in the wrong way. If you were as convinced as you say that He would approve, you wouldn't even have to ask someone to provide a reason why He wouldn't.

You would go and keep doing what you want with no concern for anyone proving anything.

You're looking for the truth which says you know that what you think ain't it.

So... does this mean you CAN'T come up with a logically consistent reason to think why God wouldn't approve of mutually consenting, loving homosexual relationships?

If you could just admit that to yourself, maybe we'd all live in a slightly better world

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I was shacking up with them and had no respect for myself either as a substance abuser and fornicator.

Mercyburst, I aplaud your honesty, I sincerely do, and I genuinely wish you all the blessings and hapiness in the world... so please don't take this as a personal attack, it is genuinely intended as constructive criticism and I hope you can accept it as such...

can you see that if you are saying things like this "I was shacking up with them and had no respect for myself either as a substance abuser and fornicator." then the problem isn't with homosexuals, its with you? Hear me out, you admit to having problems with yourself, and you are associating homosexuals with those feelings because you are projecting what you percieve as your flaws onto others.

I hope and pray eventually you overcome this, and are able to respect both yourself and other people on their merits, rather than condemn them on percieved shortcomings. Get help if you need it, just try to seek help from people who will accept your flaws and those of others, rather than from people whose idea of help is to make themselves feel better by putting others down, which I fear is what your current coping mechanism is.