Does Scripture account for the age of dinosaurs?

[Quasar92]

He is saying they must be interpreted consitently, which is part of how the bible should be undertsood.

If genesis is understood consitently with the rest of the bible it can only be understood as a literal 6 day creation.

The above logic comes from sources who think their understanding of the Bible is infallible, with no exception.

However, there are a great many issues, though touched on, the Bible does not go into detail about, because they are not relative to God's primary plan for mankind.


Quasar92

 

[Galilee63]

God our Heavenly Father, our Holy Divine Majesty, created Heaven and Earth and all of His Creatures

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

YHWH created everything simple.

Men messed up. (badly!)

Men are still messing up. (very badly!)

 

[Root of Jesse]

From the February 2009 Trumpet Print Edition » Does Scripture account for the age of dinosaurs?

Dinosaur Tracks, the almost homemade-looking sign says on the side of Highway 160 just west of Tuba City, Arizona, on the way to the Grand Canyon. The expanse of fossils and footprints, scattered throughout this portion of the Painted Desert on a Navajo Indian reservation, attests to a dramatic moment in Earth’s history.

The site lies some miles north of an ancient meteoric crater, and the story seems relatively clear from the evidence left behind. Some footprints indicate running—confusion as traffic collided in the final moments of a chaotic world. Yet, the majority of the footprints seem to face the direction of the crater—as if these large reptiles were transfixed by a fiery display in the sky. The world around them was collapsing. Precipitation had muddied the terrain. When the meteor hit, scorching heat burst in all directions, baking this dinosaur community right into earth—the footprints, the eggs, the dung and even an almost-entire dinosaur skeleton—all of it fossilized just off this wilderness highway.

Paleontologists have left the remains there, says one of the Navajo locals who guides tourists around, though all the finds have been documented. This desert museum is one of many sites that attest to the destruction of a majestic breed of animals. These imposing creatures have captured the imagination of many a young boy, and the story as to their extinction has perplexed paleontologists, scientists and evolutionists, who can only theorize as to how the “age of reptiles” came to an end.

Mainstream Christians, on the other hand, are leery of all this dinosaur talk, fearing that—if scientists are right about these creatures’ existence—the Bible’s credibility could be forever extinguished. They assume the Earth is 6,000 years old, and that the Bible attests to that fact. This either causes them to ignore fossil evidence or to concoct outlandish theories that dinosaurs lived between Adam and the great Flood of Noah’s day.

On this point, traditional Christianity needs to be corrected. If scientists knew this, perhaps they would be less likely to dismiss the Bible as some mythical text that weaves a tale of a world much younger than they believe to exist. Science would, in fact, see the answer to the age-old mystery as to what happened to the dinosaurs! After all, science should be based on all knowledge—of which the Bible is the foundation!

Religion’s Errors

The answer is in the first two verses of the Holy Bible, yet no one seems to acknowledge it!

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). No biblical evidence suggests that this verse documents an event from 6,000 years ago—to the contrary!

Verse 2 states: “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”

Other verses confirm that God did not create the Earth in this disarray. The phrase “earth was without form” actually means, in the Hebrew, the Earth became without form and void (see Genesis 19:26 where the same Hebrew verb is used stating how Lot’s wife became a pillar of salt).

How much time passed between the creation of Genesis 1:1 and the ensuing destruction of the Earth’s ecosystem as noted in verse 2? Though the Bible does not tell us—it could have been millions or billions of years—it does tell us how the Earth came to be in such a state.

Genesis 1:2-10 indicate that the Earth was covered with water and that no sunlight was able to pierce through the impenetrable, lethal atmosphere. What God embarked on, according to this account, was a re-creation. This is what the Bible states occurred 6,000 years ago. Earth was re-inhabited with life. Psalm 104:30 shows that God renewed the face of the Earth.

Understanding this timeline allows for dinosaurs to have existed much more than six millennia ago. It is only when so-called Bible believers lock themselves into a 6,000-year-old world that they have trouble with dinosaurs. This gives birth to the erroneous notion that dinosaurs had to exist until the time of the great Flood—another Earth-wide destruction. A simple study into the account of Noah will show that he brought some of every kind of animal onto the ark (see Genesis 6:19-20). If dinosaurs had existed, they would have been on the ark—and still would have existed in large enough numbers to be documented throughout man’s history.

Older Than 6,000 Years!

The Bible talks about the Earth before the re-creation of Genesis 1:2. An account like Isaiah 14:12-15 sheds light on this: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell [Hebrew: sheol, meaning grave, pit or exile], to the sides of the pit.”

The Bible tells of an impressive angelic creature that rebelled against God before the creation of Adam. His attempt to launch a coup against God’s heavenly throne resulted in his being thrown back down to the already-existent planet Earth. Jesus Christ confirmed this during His earthly ministry: “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven,” He said (Luke 10:18). Thus, unprecedented Earth-wide destruction ensued!

The story of the Bible is not about a young Earth, but an ancient one that was literally impacted by the rebellion of a great archangel so many years ago. Any details about the Earth after the re-creation are vastly different than those of the pre-Adamic world. Instead of an age where colossal reptiles roamed a planet hostile to human existence, this new age shows foliage and fruits, gardens and grains, and a dominant supply of warm-blooded mammals. This re-creation was a different Earth in that sense—a new cast of animals, where mammals take center stage while cold-blooded reptiles are more of a sideshow. Of course, the reptiles are vital to the ecosystem, but their role of dominance and grandeur is gone.

This world, after the ruins of Lucifer’s rebellion were repaired, is one completely suited for warm-blooded humankind, created in the image and likeness of God, to have dominion (Genesis 1:26). Man could not have dominated a world in the age of the Tyrannosaurus Rex or the Brachiosaurus. Nor could he have survived. The fruits and vegetables, the meat, and even the pleasant beauty and sounds of birds and flowers, were all created for the age of man.

Global Catastrophes

Whether they believe the Bible or not, scientists must admit that the Bible does plainly allow for the existence of a pre-Adamic Earth and ecosystem, and for the catastrophic destruction of that world. What they will not accept is that the evidence they have uncovered proves the Bible’s explanation to be the answer to this age-old mystery!

The fossil record proves the biblical explanation.

Scientists look at the remains of the pre-Adamic world (our term, not theirs) and see fossils buried in what they say is an evolutionary order. That is what they assume—finding, we might add, no transitional fossils between these layers. This is something that still stumps the greatest scientists! The world, in truth, was actually teeming with all sorts of life of varying sizes. When destruction rained down on the Earth, rocks were laid down suddenly. Those creatures close to the impact of a meteor would have been cremated and/or buried and baked near the surface, as can be seen near that spot in the Painted Desert.

This great extinction wiped out old and young, eggs and elderly, small and large. No other explanation can account for such a dying off of these prehistoric life forms—particularly the dinosaurs, which, for example, disappeared in all regions of the world. It caused the extinction of air, land and marine reptiles.

For those who believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God, this explanation gels with this divinely inspired text. (For more on this, request a free copy of our booklets Does God Exist? and The Proof of the Bible.)

These reptiles did not evolve into mammals. They were obliterated. The so-called Cenozoic era—the age of man’s existence on Earth, where all vegetation and life enable human survival—began after God re-created the Earth. Cenozoic rock, because it represents the age of man, consists of an entirely different set of sedimentary layers and fossils than was laid down in the pre-Adamic destruction mentioned in Genesis 1:2. In these more recent layers, not surprisingly, fossils of the warm-blooded mammals associated with man’s world predominate.

What geologists have found in Cenozoic rock is another mass burial of life. This can be traced back to Noah’s Flood, occurring about 1,650 years after the re-creation of the Earth. This worldwide catastrophe was not as severe as the pre-Adamic one, as sea life was not extinguished.

Bible and Science Can Coexist

Rather than proving evolution, the layers of fossilized rock attest to supernatural forces at work in nature: first, an earth without oceans or water in Pr.8:24, huge meteor and comet strikes, massive volcanic action and the ensuing catastrophic Earth-wide flood God started the six day creation with, according to Ps.24:2 and 2 Pet.3:5; the second Flood of Noah’s time and the separation and dividing of the continents of the earth in Gen.10:25..

Thus, there is no conflict between fossil record and biblical truth. Despite scientists’ attempts to ignore God and discard the Bible, the facts of science and God’s Word will always agree with and mutually amplify each other!

By Ryan Malone


Quasar92

I agree with your premise, that the Bible vs Science is a false dichotomy, and that the Bible does not conflict with science theory on how it all came to be, with one exception-Science, when it removes the FACT that God created it all, is wrong. It may be true that we evolved as they say, except that God caused it all.
I believe, personally, that God breathed a soul into Adam and Eve, that's how they became 'human' as opposed to humanoid. That's just me.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I think "mainstream" isn't accurate here, because a slim majority of Christian believers in the U.S., at least, believe evolution (or something like it, such as managed evolution) is how life unfolded on Earth, and most of them believe this was by God's design, and most believe by His management. So, the majority of U.S. believers understand the Earth to be very old, and life also.

IT's not a slim majority when you include that most Catholics believe in some form of evolution.

 

[Root of Jesse]

It is interesting to read what the early promotors of evolution and long ages wrote about the bible.
T/.Huxley, darwins bulldog had this to say about scripture:-
'I am fairly at a loss to comprehend how any one, for a moment, can doubt that Christian theology must stand or fall with the historical trustworthiness of the Jewish Scriptures. The very conception of the Messiah, or Christ, is inextricably interwoven with Jewish history; the identification of Jesus of Nazareth with that Messiah rests upon the interpretation of passages of the Hebrew Scriptures which have no evidential value unless they possess the historical character assigned to them. If the covenant with Abraham was not made; if circumcision and sacrifices were not ordained by Jahveh; if the "ten words" were not written by God’s hand on the stone tables; if Abraham is more or less a mythical hero, such as Theseus; the story of the Deluge a fiction; that of the Fall a legend; and that of the creation the dream of a seer; if all these definite and detailed narratives of apparently real events have no more value as history than have the stories of the regal period of Rome—what is to be said about the Messianic doctrine, which is so much less clearly enunciated? And what about the authority of the writers of the books of the New Testament, who, on this theory, have not merely accepted flimsy fictions for solid truths, but have built the very foundations of Christian dogma upon legendary quicksands?’
from Huxley, T., Science and Hebrew Tradition, Vol. 4 of Huxley’s Collected Essays, ‘The Lights of the Church and the Light of Science’, (1890), pp. 207–208, aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/CE4/Lights.html, 18 March 2008
and
Concerning
Matthew 19:5 [‘Have ye not read, that he which made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; and the twain shall become one flesh?’], Huxley wrote,
‘If divine authority is not here claimed for the twenty-fourth verse of the second chapter of Genesis, what is the value of language? And again, I ask, if one may play fast and loose with the story of the Fall as a "type" or "allegory," what becomes of the foundation of Pauline theology?’

He is clearly saying that Christians cannot mix their Christianity with evolution.
take Charle Lyell, the promotor of slow and gradual change:-
The late Harvard Professor of Geology, Stephen Jay Gould, wrote: “Lyell’s great treatise is not, as so often stated, a textbook summarizing all prevailing knowledge in a systematic way, but a passionate brief for a single, well-formed argument [for uniformitarianism—Ed.], hammered home relentlessly. … Truth is supposed to prevail by force of logical argument and wealth of documentation, not by strength of rhetoric.
from Gould, S.J.,Time’s Arrow, Time’s Cycle, Harvard University Press, 1987

In short science has a closed mind to the possibility that the bible could be correct.

So who does one believe, men or God?

Not all scientists are atheist. In fact, many of the theories we hold today, such as the Big Bang, are from Catholic priest-scientists. It is a false dichotomy to say that Science and Religion are opposed. As long as science admits that God did it all, and continues to do it, there is nothing wrong with trying to figure out how.

 

[Root of Jesse]

"He is clearly saying that Christians cannot mix their Christianity with evolution."

He is clearly saying that however the creation accounts are interpreted the Abrahamic accounts must be interpreted the same way. But the creation accounts and the Abrahamic accounts of Genesis are completely different and it would be irresponsible to equalize and force the same interpretation of these.

He is clearly wrong, though. I believe that a form of evolution that includes God creating it all is compatible with the Bible.

 

[Root of Jesse]

i.e. YHWH Told the TRUTH. It is still TRUTH. Always will be. YHWH cannot lie, nor would He ever consider it.

And we who believe evolution (as opposed to Darwinian evolution) and the Bible know that it is Truth.

 

[Root of Jesse]

YHWH created everything simple.

Men messed up. (badly!)

Men are still messing up. (very badly!)

Right. how does that contribute to the conversation?

 

[Root of Jesse]

The above logic comes from sources who think their understanding of the Bible is infallible, with no exception.

However, there are a great many issues, though touched on, the Bible does not go into detail about, because they are not relative to God's primary plan for mankind.


Quasar92

I believe the Bible is infallible meaning it means what it conveys. But the Bible isn't a science book. The Bible teaches us how to go to heaven. Science tries to teach us how the heavens go.

 

[Halbhh]

IT's not a slim majority when you include that most Catholics believe in some form of evolution.

I was thinking of a poll I think after 2010 that included all U.S. Christians, and I think the cumulative number for accepting evolution, including such as guided evolution, was 51% of U.S. Christians, but I'd be delighted to get updated information. I love it that the Catholic Church officially recognized evolution as a valid way God could do things long ago (isn't it over 70 years ago?). Leading the trend on that one!

 

[Root of Jesse]

I was thinking of a poll I think after 2010 that included all U.S. Christians, and I think the cumulative number for accepting evolution, including such as guided evolution, was 51% of U.S. Christians, but I'd be delighted to get updated information. I love it that the Catholic Church officially recognized evolution as a valid way God could do things long ago (isn't it over 70 years ago?). Leading the trend on that one!

On lots of hot topics these days-marriage, divorce, SSM, contraception, abortion, etc.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why love a valid way (as you call it) published by a wayward group, leading others on the trend away from God, when it contradicts Scripture so often (every day) ?

 

[Halbhh]

Why love a valid way (as you call it) published by a wayward group, leading others on the trend away from God, when it contradicts Scripture so often (every day) ?

Hi, I think you were asking about my comment above. Just so it could help explain my view let me tell you several things -- I totally believe in God, in Christ, risen, as summarized in the Nicene Creed along with many other key things, which most who call themselves Christians agree to fully -- including Catholics! (I'm not in the Catholic church though) [I'll copy and paste the creed below]. But more -- I believe in the Word in the Bible as every bit true (and even more than that, I don't think our current mainstream texts like the ESV, NASB, NIV, NKJV and other mainstream texts have any really significant errors even, but I don't judge those who wonder about that). And more, I believe in the Word as essential to us, crucial. Without the Bible, we'd only be able to rely on finding a true teacher, such as the apostles were, which might be hard to discern for a beginner.

And of course, just like you, I know there are a great many metaphors and figurative wordings in the scriptures, so that real believers can interpret certain passages differently, even believers together in the same church building (an understatement! if you talk to 20 or 30 of your fellow church members in your own local church, you find out they have diverse viewpoints). If you wonder about my own way of interpreting Genesis chapter 1 I'd be happy to share it, but I take it literally and figuratively both (not just one, but both), and have some guesses about some things just like others have guesses about things not written, like how much time passed during verse 1, when God fully created the Universe and the Earth. I think this is not spiritually important, of course, and that is why it is not in the text even as a suggesting, not in any way. It could have been 1 minute, 1 day, 100 years, or billions of years after God created the Universe, before the Earth received it's first-ever light, in verse 3, later (later in time than verse 1). I think that light was from our Sun, because scripture says that it began night and day on the Earth! We know night and day on the Earth happen because the Sun lights the Earth and the Earth rotates. This is spiritually unimportant. Except....only if a young believer learns that the Universe is more than 13 billion years old according to science and their church wrongly claimed that zero time passed during verse 1, and then that contradiction helps to destroy their faith. Then it is very important, at that moment, that someone, somewhere, tell them the truth -- that the Bible does not say how much time passed during verse 1.
----------------------
The Nicene Creed

We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made;
of the same essence as the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
and was made human.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried.
The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again with glory
to judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will never end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life.
He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.
He spoke through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.
We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look forward to the resurrection of the dead,
and to life in the world to come.

The Apostle's Creed

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

that the Bible does not say how much time passed during verse 1.

Keep searching/ keep seeking/ and God will not disappoint you. No one who trusts in Him and keeps doing as He says , relying on Him, is ever disappointed.

He will eventually make clear to you, if you keep seeking, how much time passed, if He pleases...
In the meantime, as He pleases, He may make known to you the Scriptures freely , as He did all the disciples in the NT: " Then opened HE their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,"
including all the
directly contrary to Scripture fallacies and traditions propagated with great wickednesses by those who you mentioned earlier.

Until then, it is best entirely to let it all rest with God and not to state anything that goes along with known pagan practices and heresies. (this will be more obvious every day now, if and as you watch while trusting in God to reveal all things concerning Salvation in this life and in the life to come --- HE DELIGHTS to make known HIS WORD, and HIS WILL, according to HIS WORD, to those He calls and chooses) .....

i.e. it is not just one part, nor one thing about the fallacy that is opposed to His Word, but many things, many parts, that get carried along or associated with it all, and from where it all comes out of as a source (not from God, and not from His Word-- this matter much much more than most people ever realize, or they would never have been deceived in the first place) ...

 

[DennisTate]

What the OP is suggesting is sometimes known as the "gap" theory. It was popularized near the beginning of the 20th century by the notes in the Schofield Reference Bible. I cannot say for sure that this is the explanation that I believe 100%, but I do think that it answers some of the questions that otherwise I have no answer for.

I ran into a good explanation for this Gap Theory in
a near death experience account......

NDE of Dr. Richard Eby verifies old earth and gap theory.

Jesus paused again.
"My book tells of the time when Lucifer's rebellion in heaven changed some things. He sought to usurp my Father's throne, assume his position as the most high God, and to rule the universe. For that blasphemy Lucifer was cast from heaven to Earth; in fact, I saw him fall as a bolt of lightning! In a tantrum of hate and rage over being deposed so fast he and his fallen angels disfigured our perfect Earth. It became void and uninhabitable. For punishment befitting his enemy of God, Lucifer was given a new name, Satan, since he was the self-appointed "adversary' of the Almighty. Anything that God had made, Satan would attempt to destroy from then on. As Lucifer he had been created the highest angel about the throne, one of his assignments and talents being the chief musician in charge of worship and music. In his rebellious anger he set about destroying harmony on and in the Earth from then on. That is why the Earth where he operates now is out of harmony with God's other creations. In my book we call this disharmony "sin', because it defies God's will that even the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament show his handiwork.

"But be of good cheer, my son. The Father has permitted me to overcome Satan's world system of sin, and to destroy the works of Satan, and to re-establish righteousness in the hearts of my friends. Eventually in his chosen time he will restore all creation as it once was, in him!" (Dr. Richard Eby, near-death.com)

 

[DamianWarS]

the creation account is not about the gap theory, it's not about literal days, it's not about evolution it's about fixing the theology of the very misguided perspectives of the post-exodus Israelites using a contextualised approach and establishing an orthodox faith. The creation account is less about the "how" and more about the "who". Conceding in this doesn't mean you are affirming evolution or darwinism, nor does it mean you are affirming the gap theory or a literal approach it's simply recognizing the text isn't about these things. Belief whatever theory you want about the timeline just don't try and insert it into the creation account.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It's not that complicated. (not by YHWH).

He Breathed His Word, and it is simple and clear.

He Says in His Word, what His Word is ,
what His Word is for, and what to do,
and how to learn.
Simple.

 

[Quasar92]

the creation account is not about the gap theory, it's not about literal days, it's not about evolution it's about fixing the theology of the very misguided perspectives of the post-exodus Israelites using a contextualised approach and establishing an orthodox faith. The creation account is less about the "how" and more about the "who". Conceding in this doesn't mean you are affirming evolution or darwinism, nor does it mean you are affirming the gap theory or a literal approach it's simply recognizing the text isn't about these things. Belief whatever theory you want about the timeline just don't try and insert it into the creation account.[/QUOTE


Some of us are interested in learning Why the earth stood in a formless void, in Gen.1:2, ater God had created what was most certainly a perfect heaven and earth.

That you view it with disdain, by no means constitutes your reasoning that it did not occur. The evidence for it is overwhelmingly predominate in scientific study.
IMO, it was over some event pertaining to God having to place judgment on Satan for or over his disobedience.


Quasar92

 

[DamianWarS]

Some of us are interested in learning Why the earth stood in a formless void, in Gen.1:2, ater God had created what was most certainly a perfect heaven and earth.

That you view it with disdain, by no means constitutes your reasoning that it did not occur. The evidence for it is overwhelmingly predominate in scientific study.
IMO, it was over some event pertaining to God having to place judgment on Satan for or over his disobedience.


Quasar92

Hebrew is a very concrete language and we use a lot of abstracts when translating cause we love abstracts but we miss the ancient world view. Gen 1:1 reads more literally "in the summit God fattened the sky and the land" we translate this into more abstracts like beginning , create, and heavens and earth but the text doesn't read this way.

Western abstract thinking like us don't like this because the implications of "at a summit" God simply "fattened" or filled up earth and the sky means they were already there...so who created them? We demand the answer (so we say it means create) but this wasn't important to the ancient hebrews. Perhaps knowing this concrete language v2 makes more sense saying "The earth was without form and void"

When you read the creation account what you see is days 1-3 God speaks the things into being "let there be..." but he more organizes the chaos then 4-6 he fills it up or "fattens" them with the sun, moon and stars, fish and birds finally animals including Man. Almost appears poetic in order.