Do we have any real examples of Born Again Christians falling away from the faith forever never to return?

[JohnB445]

Every single story I hear goes something like this.
Someone grew up in a family that was religious, they went to Church and did Church activities, they never took it seriously or wanted to go to Church but went because their family made them, and now as they got older, they no longer go.

So now according to them they left the faith, even though in the beginning they seemed to want nothing to do with, and they have no mention of having a life changing spiritual experience or believing in God or Jesus with all their heart at one time, it all centered around "Church activities" whatever that means, and them no longer wanting to go.

We must ask, what does it mean to be a Christian? Does it mean to go to a Church one time, and be raised in a family of people who say they are Christians?

Now if they said they believed in Jesus and God with all their heart at one time in the past and no longer do, then that's a different story. But they never imply or claim they did, only that they went to a Chruch building.

 

[RandyPNW]

Every single story I hear goes something like this.
Someone grew up in a family that was religious, they went to Church and did Church activities, they never took it seriously or wanted to go to Church but went because their family made them, and now as they got older, they no longer go.

So now according to them they left the faith, even though in the beginning they seemed to want nothing to do with, and they have no mention of having a life changing spiritual experience or believing in God or Jesus with all their heart at one time, it all centered around "Church activities" whatever that means, and them no longer wanting to go.

We must ask, what does it mean to be a Christian? Does it mean to go to a Church one time, and be raised in a family of people who say they are Christians?

Now if they said they believed in Jesus and God with all their heart at one time in the past and no longer do, then that's a different story. But they never imply or claim they did, only that they went to a Chruch building.

I can tell you about a couple of friends of mine who ditched either paganism or their stale Christian experience to join the Jesus People movement. Most often that meant becoming born again, but for some it may have just been joining a fad. These two friends of mine didn't last too long in the faith. Both clamed they didn't believe anymore.

One of them truly had been born again, in my opinion. He came out of atheism, and was a house on fire. He had gifts of the Spirit and brought a work mate to Christ, a young lady he fell in love with. But because she did not return affection, he quit the faith. She, however, is still walking with the Lord!

Some years after leaving the faith he got married to a pagan woman, and I visited him. In front of his pagan wife he behaved in a disinterested way when I asked him if he was good with leaving the faith. His wife was annoyed, and said she was going to bed. Then he whispered to me that he really still believed.

The other friend who left the faith had been raised up in a stale Christianity, and had joined the Jesus People. But he never exhibited much exhuberance about spirituality and leading others to Christ. And admiring his pagan older brother, who was somewhat intellectual, he went to college and left the faith, and has never returned.

I don't personally think he ever was born again, though I think he still may someday. He was just mesmerized by his older brother's attention as an intellectual.

I had another friend who got excited about the faith and truly converted from an alcoholic problem, a businessman who was having some problems in his business. He truly converted and wanted to convert others, understanding spiritual things. But I don't think he ever got born again, because his old nature never really changed. It just got covered up with a lot of "spiritual talk." He's dead now.

Draw your own conclusions. True stories.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Every single story I hear goes something like this.
Someone grew up in a family that was religious, they went to Church and did Church activities, they never took it seriously or wanted to go to Church but went because their family made them, and now as they got older, they no longer go.

So now according to them they left the faith, even though in the beginning they seemed to want nothing to do with, and they have no mention of having a life changing spiritual experience or believing in God or Jesus with all their heart at one time, it all centered around "Church activities" whatever that means, and them no longer wanting to go.

We must ask, what does it mean to be a Christian? Does it mean to go to a Church one time, and be raised in a family of people who say they are Christians?

Now if they said they believed in Jesus and God with all their heart at one time in the past and no longer do, then that's a different story. But they never imply or claim they did, only that they went to a Chruch building.

Even though it appears that a BAC has fallen away, there is still the ability to find Him again without the rhetoric that unfortunately surrounds Him and His Gospel. Especially those who have been raised a Christian from birth. These are the most vulnerable. They are taught how to love Jesus Christ of Nazareth rather than finding a genuine love for Him on their own.
We can not judge the heart. The only unforgivable sin is rejection till death. And yes, I do know someone who left the faith due to the irresponsible actions of Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry.

Be blessed.

 

[bling]

When you read Philippians 1:6, you also have to read Philippians 2:12 that says, “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”



When you read John 10:28, you have to also read John 10:27 that says, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:” So the kind of sheep that cannot be snatched out of Christ's hand are the kind of sheep that follow Jesus and they know Jesus. Keeping God's commands is an assurance that a person knows the Lord (See: 1 John 2:3). For the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them (See: 1 John 2:4).



As for Ephesians 4:30:



Check out this article here:



Sealed UNTO the day of redemption, but a seal can be broken Eph. 4:30



As for John 6:37:



John 6:37-40 says,



37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."



First, what does Jesus mean by,



“All that the Father giveth me come to me?”



Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).



Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.



Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,



"I WILL lose nothing."



However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,



"I SHOULD lose nothing."



John 6:39 (KJV) says,



"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."



Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40



"MAY have everlasting life".



John 6:40

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."



In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?



Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.



John 17:12 says:



"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."



Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:



While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.



And OSAS terminology:



While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.



Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?



Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Again, it is talking about our inheritance (future gift) and the Spirit being given as a guarantee now to know we have an inheritance, but we know we can quench the Spirit and give up an inheritance like Esau did.



John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

The Spirit being given as a guarantee now to know we have an inheritance, but we know we can quench the Spirit and give up an inheritance like Esau did.





1 Peter 1: 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

The Spirit being given as a guarantee now to know we have an inheritance, but we know we can quench the Spirit and give up an inheritance like Esau did.





1 John 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

If you quit trusting in Christ then you give up.
According to God's WORD, it is only those that are faithful to the end that will be saved. What does this mean?



MATTHEW 24:13 [12], And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13], But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.



MARK 13:13 [13], And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.



HEBREWS 3:13-14 [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end



continued next

 

[bling]

HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
COLOSSIANS 1:12-14; 23
[12], Giving thanks to the Father, which has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
[13], Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[14], In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.....
[23], If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister
ROMANS 6:22 [22], But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.
REVELATION 2:26 [26], And he that overcomes, and keeps my works to the end, to him will I give power over the nations
2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3 [1], Now we beseech you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him, [2], That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3], Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
1 PETER 4:18 [18], And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
According to God's WORD salvation is for those who "continue in the faith" (Colossians 1:23). Those who do not "give place to the devil" (Ephesians 4:27), will not grieve the Spirit by believing the lie that they may not cease to endure to the end. "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption" (4:30). Not only is it necessary for the Saints to endure or persevere to the end; but at the same time, both the Father and the Son have promised to preserve those who "continue in the faith". "28 And I give unto them Eternal Life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand. 29 My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand" (John 10:28-29). This relationship where the Saints Endure While God Preserves was best expressed by the LORD Jesus: "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work" (John 5:17).
HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.
MATTHEW 24:13 [12], And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13], But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.
MARK 13:13 [13], And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.
HEBREWS 3:13-14 [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end
HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
MATTHEW 13:18-23 [18], Hear you therefore the parable of the sower.
[19], When any one hears the word of the kingdom, and understands it not, then comes the wicked one, and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. [20], But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that hears the word, and immediately with joy receives it; [21], Yet has he not root in himself, but endures for a while: for when tribulation or persecution rises because of the word, by and by he is offended. [22], He also that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.[23], But he that received seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it; which also bears fruit, and brings forth, some a hundred times, some sixty, some thirty.
REVELATION 2:26 And he that overcomes, and keeps my works to the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
REVELATION 3:5
He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
REVELATION 3:12 Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write on him my new name.
REVELATION 3:21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
REVELATION 21:7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
1john 1:9 [9] IF we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness
PROVERBS 28:13 He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whoever confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy.
HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.
MATTHEW 24:13 [12], And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13], But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.
MARK 13:13 [13], And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.
HEBREWS 3:13-14 [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end
HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
COLOSSIANS 1:12-14; 23
[12], Giving thanks to the Father, which has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
[13], Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[14], In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.....
[23], If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister
ROMANS 6:22 [22], But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.
REVELATION 2:26 [26], And he that overcomes, and keeps my works to the end, to him will I give power over the nations
2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3 [1], Now we beseech you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him, [2], That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3], Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
1 PETER 4:18 [18], And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
REVELATION 2:26 And he that overcomes, and keeps my works to the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
REVELATION 3:5
He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
REVELATION 3:12 Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write on him my new name.
REVELATION 3:21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
REVELATION 21:7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Well these are only a few of many more that can be posted. Look foward to your response.
I use other scripture to address these arguments.
1. Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.
Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.
As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.
2. Eternal Life in heaven is spoken of as our inheritance and not something we actually have at the moment. All other Gifts of God we have right away, but heaven is truly ours as a birthright (our inheritance).
Also someone being dead was brought up, but we really need to see how Christ talked about dead people:
Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.
The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.
Esau owned the “gift” of the firstborn inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone steal it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.
The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.

 

[simplefaith]

In the second example of the parable of the sower, people who made a shallow commitment believed for a while, but in the time of testing fell away. What did they fall away from if not the faith which they only believed in for a while? In the third example people kept getting side tracked from the path they should have been on by worldly things. Jesus did not say they fell away, only they did not mature, you mature by evermore practicing right from wrong. So, one group fell away, the other did not

 

[returntosender]

Atheists?

 

[ThisIsMe123]

I can tell you about a couple of friends of mine who ditched either paganism or their stale Christian experience to join the Jesus People movement. Most often that meant becoming born again, but for some it may have just been joining a fad. These two friends of mine didn't last too long in the faith. Both clamed they didn't believe anymore.

One of them truly had been born again, in my opinion. He came out of atheism, and was a house on fire. He had gifts of the Spirit and brought a work mate to Christ, a young lady he fell in love with. But because she did not return affection, he quit the faith. She, however, is still walking with the Lord!

Some years after leaving the faith he got married to a pagan woman, and I visited him. In front of his pagan wife he behaved in a disinterested way when I asked him if he was good with leaving the faith. His wife was annoyed, and said she was going to bed. Then he whispered to me that he really still believed.

The other friend who left the faith had been raised up in a stale Christianity, and had joined the Jesus People. But he never exhibited much exhuberance about spirituality and leading others to Christ. And admiring his pagan older brother, who was somewhat intellectual, he went to college and left the faith, and has never returned.

I don't personally think he ever was born again, though I think he still may someday. He was just mesmerized by his older brother's attention as an intellectual.

I had another friend who got excited about the faith and truly converted from an alcoholic problem, a businessman who was having some problems in his business. He truly converted and wanted to convert others, understanding spiritual things. But I don't think he ever got born again, because his old nature never really changed. It just got covered up with a lot of "spiritual talk." He's dead now.

Draw your own conclusions. True stories.

Although, I don't know too many that went from one extreme to the other (Christian to Paganism), although Paganism is just outright weird. But anyway, most I've known is how the steps go:

1. Grew up in the church, even active in it
2. Turned 18, went off to college, and drifted away from church
3. When they come to visit their parents, they'll go to church with them on the holidays.

Granted, they are still believers, but just had become what some would call luke warm in being active participants at church. Some still prayerful, but don't have the desire to go to a building to worship on a weekly basis.

Wash, rinse, repeat with many teens turning into college-aged adults. This is very common.

Funny thing, the ones that just decided to go into the work force, blue collar, jobs (no college), stuck to it, because they were still around with their families.
It's mostly those that flew the nest of their parents where they took a different path.

I dated a woman that said she came from a small town that got up in their family business a little to much via church. She moved here to where I live, and was more of a spiritual, but not religious type.

Some are like "Yeah, I had religion shoved down my throat constantly! So glad to be away from that!" Sometimes it would be bad experiences that would chase them away.

This is why I question the whole "born again" thing, per the title of the thread....evangelicals claim that once you're born again, you'll never fall away or be totally repentant (Never repeat sin again). But here we go, with the above title. It's unrealistic to think that born again types won't commit sin again.

 

[RandyPNW]

Although, I don't know too many that went from one extreme to the other (Christian to Paganism), although Paganism is just outright weird. But anyway, most I've known is how the steps go:

1. Grew up in the church, even active in it
2. Turned 18, went off to college, and drifted away from church
3. When they come to visit their parents, they'll go to church with them on the holidays.

Granted, they are still believers, but just had become what some would call luke warm in being active participants at church. Some still prayerful, but don't have the desire to go to a building to worship on a weekly basis.

Wash, rinse, repeat with many teens turning into college-aged adults. This is very common.

Funny thing, the ones that just decided to go into the work force, blue collar, jobs (no college), stuck to it, because they were still around with their families.
It's mostly those that flew the nest of their parents where they took a different path.

I dated a woman that said she came from a small town that got up in their family business a little to much via church. She moved here to where I live, and was more of a spiritual, but not religious type.

Some are like "Yeah, I had religion shoved down my throat constantly! So glad to be away from that!" Sometimes it would be bad experiences that would chase them away.

This is why I question the whole "born again" thing, per the title of the thread....evangelicals claim that once you're born again, you'll never fall away or be totally repentant (Never repeat sin again). But here we go, with the above title. It's unrealistic to think that born again types won't commit sin again.

I see things through the grid of my particular theology, coupled with my own personal experience. The things you saw happen I've seen happen too. But in my experience there is a notable difference between those I see as truly "Born Again" and those simply raised up in the church.

Those I see as having been truly Born Again have a certain familiarity with the converted Christian experience and have exhibited the excitement and the character change that indicates a new nature was adopted. But I've also seen those who got excited about a converted Christian experience without a true change of nature, only covering up the same old nature with religious talk and good deeds. There was obviously a genuine experience, but not one leading to a change in nature--just an exhibition of spiritual experience.

Both those I believe were truly Born Again and those who simply adopted a spiritual experience without change were able to leave Christianity, whether by a choice for paganism or simply a withdrawal from the church. We all have free choices.

But those I've seen as truly Born Again, even in leaving the church for paganism, always were under the dark cloud of disappointment, and not necessarily a conviction that they rejected God. My experience and belief about it is that.

I personally have gone through terrible disappointment that led to some abandonment of Christian practice and a temporary departure from the church. But I've never really wanted to abandon God Himself. That's my own personal experience.

I'm sure there are some sociological factors that determine the *likelihood* of some remaining in the Faith or not. For example, those more educated and independent, running off to university, will likely be exposed to greater temptation to adopt a rationale for leaving Christian practice. Those who are "workers" who remain in their original environment may be more likely to remain true to their parents' Faith.

None of this means the truly Born Again experience doesn't affect either the choice or the outcome. Even those who go to university, who are Born Again, are more likely to remain with the Faith, even if overall the apostates among the Born Again are more in the university.

And those who remain with the Faith at home, who hold labor jobs, are no more likely to be Born Again than those in more advanced jobs with more advanced degrees. The choice to be Born Again isn't determined by anything more than personal conviction. It is an individual decision. Going to church does not mean a person is "Born Again."

For me, the determining factor is whether a person has truly been Born Again. And as I said, that is indicated by a change of character, not just doing kind things but becoming a kind person, modeled after Christ. If one is Born Again, he may go apostate and chase after paganism, but in my experience it is due to a tremendous disappointment or temptation--not a matter of inward conviction.

 

[Jonaitis]

Although, I don't know too many that went from one extreme to the other (Christian to Paganism), although Paganism is just outright weird.

Usually, the reason they make that extreme jump because they want to completely disassociate with the Christian faith to find a entirely different path. It is no different than a pagan to turn to Christian, and for a lot of pagan in the day, becoming a Christian was considered outright weird.

 

[Dan Perez]

Usually, the reason they make that extreme jump because they want to completely disassociate with the Christian faith to find a entirely different path. It is no different than a pagan to turn to Christian, and for a lot of pagan in the day, becoming a Christian was considered outright weird.

And I believe that the ONLY people that can be BORN AGAIN are going to be ISRAEL as written in Eze 37:1-14 !!

Verse 15-28 Israel and Judah will once again become ONE NATION again !!

dan p