Could God have Created a Different Universe?

[Clizby WampusCat]

Ignore the thology and castigate me for being divisive and hating...riiiiight. The ad hominem is strong in this one...

The theology is divisive. It is not ad hominem. I am not saying your theology is wrong because it is divisive. Also notice I never said you were divisive or hating. I am saying your theology causes division and hatred in some people. I can back up that claim.

This is the form of ad hominem: A makes a claim x, B asserts that A holds a property that is unwelcome, and hence B concludes that argument x is wrong. I am not doing that.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

The Holy Spirit...

Then why do you need faith?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

That's a form of the general question: Why does anyone suffer? Or more narrow: Why do the innocent suffer?

Then you seem to ask next: How could a child that did not suffer be ready for heaven? (as you worded it: "if this child only ascends to heaven, for eternity, how would the child know it is eternal bliss, if no bad exists in heaven"?)

Of course, obviously if they suffer here in a mortal body first, then they can know bliss is better than suffering from experience.

But that's not the whole answer. There is more. God is the One Who is able to know what we need, individually.

Individually: different souls needing different things to be completely ready. Some needing more, but some not needing as much, because they are more close to just-right already. Maybe some souls already really in a perfect place, even before birth.

But if not, He can do what it takes -- see 1rst Peter 3:18-4:6: souls can be given a chance after this mortal life to turn to Christ in faith, and be changed for the better, even after the mortal body has perished.

All of the above also answers the last question (if you were paying attention). To restate (in case you prefer): God is the one who knows just what the individual, unique soul needs, uniquely.

Could I suggest you are approaching Christianity wrong? It's not about proving it correct or incorrect by logic -- neither is possible. Instead, to try out Christianity in a real way, one would have to do the specific things Jesus taught we must do, the things He indicated are essential. There's not another way to find out in a conclusive way.

Why can't God "give what people need" in away that does not involve excessive suffering? He is God right? The fact is it seems God chooses suffering as the method to give people what they need over other non suffering options.

 

[ChetSinger]

Why can't God "give what people need" in away that does not involve excessive suffering? He is God right? The fact is it seems God chooses suffering as the method to give people what they need over other non suffering options.

I wondered when this would turn into another "God is unfair" thread.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I wondered when this would turn into another "God is unfair" thread.

Well God could just come down and clear everything up. If God wants to explain Himself then I am open to hear what He has to say. Until then, all indications are that He could be doing a better job. Would you intentionally hurt your child to teach them something if another way to teach the same thing is possible without hurting them?

 

[cvanwey]

That's a form of the general question: Why does anyone suffer? Or more narrow: Why do the innocent suffer?

Then you seem to ask next: How could a child that did not suffer be ready for heaven? (as you worded it: "if this child only ascends to heaven, for eternity, how would the child know it is eternal bliss, if no bad exists in heaven"?)

Of course, obviously if they suffer here in a mortal body first, then they can know bliss is better than suffering from experience.

But that's not the whole answer. There is more. God is the One Who is able to know what we need, individually.

This entire rationale fails. Why?

You cannot sin in heaven. Unless you wish to assert sin exists in heaven?

You stating "God knows what one needs prior to heaven", is an illogical conclusion to draw. If God accepts anyone into His presence, in heaven, they were deemed imperfect sinners, while still on earth. This is regardless of if they sinned a little, sinned a lot, or did not have the chance to sin at all, because their time was cut short by God - (infancy, toddler, other).

You are no longer you, in heaven. You can't be. Freewill suggests you can choose evil, or have the ability to make a choice against God's wishes. But apparently, no one chooses evil in heaven. If you cannot choose something wrong, then heaven is one of two plausible scenarios:

A: No evil exists in heaven, for anyone to possibly choose, because God removed all of it. - "no real freewill"
B. You are stripped of your ability to any longer choose evil. - "robots"

If you can think of a third option, by all means... Please provide...?

Furthermore, since you are no longer you, if you should have personal relationships with a spouse, family, and/or friends, and they are sent to hell, do you mourn for them? This question exposes quite a lot. Why?

A. If you do mourn, then heaven is not an all happy place.
B. If you do not mourn, you are no longer you; so just send EVERYONE to heaven

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

You are no longer you, in heaven. You can't be. Freewill suggests you can choose evil, or have the ability to make a choice against God's wishes. But apparently, no one chooses evil in heaven. If you cannot choose something wrong, then heaven is one of two plausible scenarios:

Yes, this is a good point. It also makes the point that God does not want me in heaven He wants the sinless perfect me, which is not me. If I am not "like Jesus" God wants nothing to do with me. My wife believes she is going to heaven, I don't think so. I love my wife even though she is not perfect. God does not.

 

[TedT]

I'm replying to your comment "all things work for their good?"

If a child suffers and then dies, prior to the age of enlightenment, why would the prior suffering be necessary? The child is not yet able to distinguish between 'right' and 'wrong', "love' or 'hate', etc, ....and then perishes.

These question. are not answered in orthodox theology because that theology is deficient and supposes a lot of weird things about infants especially.

The theology that teaches we were all in existence prior to our conception on earth, (PCE theology) and became sinners at that time and place by our mature free will choice contends that only sinners are born on earth, none are innocent, all are sinful. Many denominations believe that we are conceived as sinners but at the same time do a doublethink to also make them innocent, woof.

Death is the wages of sin, not the consequence of life.
Death proves sinfulness.
Infants dying proves their sinfulness.
There is NO suffering prior to their sinfulness. A theology that suggests there is is deficient in understanding GOD's love.

Furthermore, if this child only ascends to heaven, for eternity, how would the child know it is eternal bliss, if no bad exists in heaven, and this child never achieved moral maturity?

For any person to ascend into heaven they must be redeemed by faith in Christ's death and sanctified unto holiness. Can this happen in the womb or earliest time? Yes it can: Ps 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
you taught me wisdom in that secret place.

Therefore we do not have to suppose that children are innocent at the same time we believe them to have inherited the effects of Adam's fall (a separate blasphemy).

All things work to the good means that even in the womb they are treated in accordance to their pre-conception free will decisions about rebelling against GOD... elect infants will be saved before their death (as the doctrine of election insists) and proceed to return to GOD and the non-elect infants who die will return to Sheol to await judgment, Ps 9:17 The wicked will RETURN to Sheol—all the nations who forget God.

The process of this imparting of wisdom in the womb will indeed ensure that they achieve moral maturity and understand the difference between heavenly bliss and sinful state, an understanding that the holy and elect angels have even though they have never sinned.

Additionally, if perishing children get a free ticket to heaven, where as you and I may instead need to play the wait-and-see-game, for God's judgement; why not just dispatch all young children. This seems most altruistic, if the goal is to guarantee human salvation.

I have been asking these questions of other Christians for over 10 years. No one who believes in the innocence of children has ever tried to answer because GOD has made it clear that HE does not want anyone to die or go to hell so if this is a sure fire way to keep hell empty, why not use it for everyone??? !!!

<head shake, facepalm>

 

[Petros2015]

Well God could just come down and clear everything up. If God wants to explain Himself then I am open to hear what He has to say. Until then, all indications are that He could be doing a better job. Would you intentionally hurt your child to teach them something if another way to teach the same thing is possible without hurting them?

well... if you see something that needs doing in the name of God, start doing it.
You are invited.

 

[TedT]

A: No evil exists in heaven, for anyone to possibly choose, because God removed all of it. - "no real freewill"
B. You are stripped of your ability to any longer choose evil. - "robots"

Neehhhhhh... wrong.
Have you never learned something important about NEVER re-experiencing a very painful experience???

Sure GOD could keep heaven free from sin by abrogating our free will but then HE could not have a heavenly marriage based upon love, right? Love and marriage cannot be forced and be real but must be freely accepted by the potential partner!

The whole story of GOD working with us in our times of our sins ends with the cleansing of this reality from all sin and HIS wedding with HIS creation! Therefore HE can't have abrogated our free will in the least.

How did HE ensure that sin would never happen in HIS heaven? HE had each and every person elected, chosen, to be his Bride who chose to be a sinner to live on earth with the Satanic until they had their eyes opened to the truth of their own sinfulness so they could be ashamed and repent. Then they had their eyes opened to the fact of the eternal sinfulness of the satanic and the absolute necessity of their being banished to the outer darkness, euphemistically called hell, for eternity.

NO judgement will be called until absolutely every person who can be saved agrees wholeheartedly on the necessity of hell - then will come the judgement day.

As for why no one will ever sin again...Everyone will know the horror and suffering caused by any and every little sin and they will avoid making any decision that will start that ball rolling ever again.

The heavenly marriage is a metaphor for a full and perfect communion (fellowship) of mind and spirit by a telepathic bond of loving emotion and full communication. Basking in this, can you conceive of anyone saying, "HMMM, I'M GOING TO RECREATE THE WORLD OF SUFFERING, HATE AND DEATH BY SINNING RIGHT NOW." ? No, me neither, but the problem with not putting the satanic in hell is that they would in fact choose to do this.

We will be just as able to sin as GOD is but we will never again sin any more than HE would ever choose to sin. So, rather than force us to be holy by abrogating our free will, by our experiences here on earth He taught us to use our free will to only choose holiness. Amen!

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Neehhhhhh... wrong.
Have you never learned something important about NEVER re-experiencing a very painful experience???

Sure GOD could keep heaven free from sin by abrogating our free will but then HE could not have a heavenly marriage based upon love, right? Love and marriage cannot be forced and be real but must be freely accepted by the potential partner!

The whole story of GOD working with us in our times of our sins ends with the cleansing of this reality from all sin and HIS wedding with HIS creation! Therefore HE can't have abrogated our free will in the least.

How did HE ensure that sin would never happen in HIS heaven? HE had each and every person elected, chosen, to be his Bride who chose to be a sinner to live on earth with the Satanic until they had their eyes opened to the truth of their own sinfulness so they could be ashamed and repent. Then they had their eyes opened to the fact of the eternal sinfulness of the satanic and the absolute necessity of their being banished to the outer darkness, euphemistically called hell, for eternity.

NO judgement will be called until absolutely every person who can be saved agrees wholeheartedly on the necessity of hell - then will come the judgement day.

As for why no one will ever sin again...Everyone will know the horror and suffering caused by any and every little sin and they will avoid making any decision that will start that ball rolling ever again.

The heavenly marriage is a metaphor for a full and perfect communion (fellowship) of mind and spirit by a telepathic bond of loving emotion and full communication. Basking in this, can you conceive of anyone saying, "HMMM, I'M GOING TO RECREATE THE WORLD OF SUFFERING, HATE AND DEATH BY SINNING RIGHT NOW." ? No, me neither, but the problem with not putting the satanic in hell is that they would in fact choose to do this.

We will be just as able to sin as GOD is but we will never again sin any more than HE would ever choose to sin. So, rather than force us to be holy by abrogating our free will, by our experiences here on earth He taught us to use our free will to only choose holiness. Amen!

So God chose who will go to heaven? We don’t choose?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

well... if you see something that needs doing in the name of God, start doing it.
You are invited.

I don't see how this addresses my post at all.

I do help people, not in the name of God but due to empathy and just plain kindness. The problem is I cannot do everything. God can. I cannot feed everyone, God can and chooses not to, I cannot stop rape, God can and chooses not to, I cannot stop cancer, God can and chooses not to. Need I go on?

 

[TedT]

Furthermore, since you are no longer you, if you should have personal relationships with a spouse, family, and/or friends, and they are sent to hell, do you mourn for them? This question exposes quite a lot. Why?

No one ends in hell who is not Satanic, ie totally given over to evil...the kind of person that would monster the most holy old man on earth (and his family) just because GOD spoke highly of him.

Those of our families who are our worst enemies will be seen for what they truly are, totally morally corrupt. The reason we live with them and get to know them so well is just this - to have us understand their evil and to come out for among them in our heart, as per the parable of the weeds, part one, Matt 13...

A. If you do mourn, then heaven is not an all happy place.
B. If you do not mourn, you are no longer you; so just send EVERYONE to heaven

No mourning.
How does the realization that they are justly punished in hell for the worst crimes that can be committed by their free will make me a different person??

The doctrine of evil is that a little leaven (sin) leavens (corrupts) the whole lump (person, nation, reality). They had to be repudiated and banished to keep heaven sin free.

 

[TedT]

So God chose who will go to heaven? We don’t choose?

How many times will I have to say WE CHOSE OUR OWN FATES! before you will pay attention and accept it??

it was a mutual pact making deal...HE offered. We chose to accept or not. HE responded.

HE offered (promised) to make sure that everyone who wanted a heavenly marriage with HIM as their GOD would in fact get to this heavenly marriage.

When some choose to accept this, (others didn't) HE fulfilled HIS offer by choosing them to be HIS Bride by promising them salvation from all sin and a place in the heavenly marriage.

 

[TedT]

Why can't God "give what people need" in away that does not involve excessive suffering?

The suffering was far from excessive and always exactly what people need.

 

[TedT]

Then why do you need faith?

Faith to accept that the Spirit in touch with me was the true Holy Spirit.
Faith to accept that He was telling me the truth.

Nothing wrong with faith, Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God...

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

How many times will I have to say WE CHOSE OUR OWN FATES! before you will pay attention and accept it??

This is a conversation. Notice I asked a question, I did not tell you what you believed.

it was a mutual pact making deal...HE offered. We chose to accept or not. HE responded.

HE offered (promised) to make sure that everyone who wanted a heavenly marriage with HIM as their GOD would in fact get to this heavenly marriage.

When some choose to accept this, (others didn't) HE fulfilled HIS offer by choosing them to be HIS Bride by promising them salvation from all sin and a place in the heavenly marriage.

You can't have it both ways. Either we choose to be the elect or God chooses the elect.

Is it just choosing? Because I choose to go to heaven instead of hell. Am I now the elect?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

The suffering was far from excessive and always exactly what people need.

Really, you get to decide for others what excessive suffering is? What is the purpose of allowing someone to be raped? Can a person learn a lesson a different way? Is God not smart enough to accomplish his goals without using suffering?

 

[cvanwey]

No mourning.
How does the realization that they are justly punished in hell for the worst crimes that can be committed by their free will make me a different person??

Say you make it to heaven, and your spouse/partner/family/friends are all sent to hell. You then know they are burning for eternity. Will you remain in perfect bliss, knowing they are all writhing in agony forever? You wouldn't even miss them?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Faith to accept that the Spirit in touch with me was the true Holy Spirit.
Faith to accept that He was telling me the truth.

Nothing wrong with faith, Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God...

Yet we can believe in anything with faith. I can believe with faith that Allah is the true God or that Big Foot exists. It is not a reliable path to determine truth. It says a lot about God that He requires you to believe without evidence and if you don't you get hell.