Can we have the Holy Spirit within before "technically" coming to repentance?

biblelesson

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I don't know exactly how it works, but I became a believer in my 20s and I can point to times when I felt things before becoming a believer which directed me to Christ, and which felt similar to the Holy Spirit nudgings I've gotten since. Was this the Holy Spirit? That becomes an interesting question. The Bible seems to say that the Holy Spirit indwells you after believing, but at the same time it was something. And we know that God works within the hearts and lives of every man, to the extent that no person will have any excuse as to why they didn't know Him. Is that the Holy Spirit, or some other Godly force? I think Holy Spirit, but am not sure.
Just a discussion here, I'm not interested in debating.

I just want to know what others views are on this question? If a person already had a background in religion, believed in their heart in the Heavenly Father, but was never taught properly about the Holy Trinity (e.g. that Jesus is the Son of God, but is not God) could they still have the Holy Spirit convicting them and guiding them in things like spiritual discernment?

edit* I ask this question because it seems before I came to Christ, I was being drawn.

John 6

44 For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up. 45 As it is written in the Scriptures,
‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

I have recently (in the past year) come to Christ. I'm asking this question out of curiosity, because the only point of difference to my experiences with God has been Jesus. (Albeit, the proper addition of Jesus to my understanding has made a big difference).

Experience appreciated, thanks
The gospel provides all the answers regarding salvation. Sometimes we must pray for revelation to understand what the gospel teachings are saying. It is the gospel (the gospel of Christ) that is unto salvation to everyone that believes, Romans 1:16. We are taught in the gospel that we are drawn to Christ and God does the drawing through the Holy Spirit. John 6:44, "No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him.." There is a drawing, which is the work of the Holy Spirit, and there is an indwelling where the Holy Spirit indwells the believer. These are two different things.

The scripture that relates to John 6:44 is Ephesians 1:4, which says, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." "That we should be holy" is not telling us to do something to be holy; it's saying because God Has determined that we "should be holy before him," he has made the decision to chose us in His Son who has shed his blood for the forgiveness of sins, which His Son, Jesus makes us holy by the blood that was shed.

We can't deny that Christ is God, because we deny the deity of Christ if we do. When Christ was on the earth, he was God and Man. He was a holy seed, born of the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of God, Luke 1:35, and he was also born of a fleshly woman, Mary. Yet he had none of the Adamic nature that we have because he was not born of a man's seed, (Joseph was not his father), but he was born of God's Holy seed, Luke 1:35. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh (man), Romans 8:3-4, so that He would be able to offer himself as a sacrifice for man, while being without sin, without the sinful nature of man.

God calls those who he chooses to salvation. God also gives us repentance, 2 Timothy 2:25, 2 Peter 3:9. We cannot repent on our own, because salvation is based on grace, a free gift, nothing that we do, not even our repentance. God gives us repentance. The thing we are asked to do is to believe on Christ. Believe He is the Son of God. Believe He is our savior. Believe we are sinful and need Him for our forgiveness.

When we truly believe in Him then we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus. If we don't believe Jesus is God, then how can we believe in Him, then the Holy Spirit will not indwell that person because the Holy Spirit will not deny Christ?

John 8:58, "Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 20:28, And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Prophetic Scripture about Christ: Isiah 9:6-7, "For unto us a son is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called "Wonderful, Consellor, The might God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

God bless you!
 
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YahuahSaves

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When we truly believe in Him then we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus. If we don't believe Jesus is God, then how can we believe in Him, then the Holy Spirit will not indwell that person because the Holy Spirit will not deny Christ?
I agree, but according to scripture we are to "pick up our cross" (die to the flesh) and follow him (Christ), in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Do you think this aspect is also a finished work of the cross? (E.g. Gods work is done in us and through us)?

I understand the drawing, but what of conviction and/or discernment? If you note my previous mention of the time I watched the secret, my gut instinct was that it was wrong and I saw evil in the eyes of two "endorsers". If you had known my thinking then, I was (and still am not) a person who could willy-nilly call someone else evil, due to my traumatic background.
 
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biblelesson

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I agree, but according to scripture we are to "pick up our cross" (die to the flesh) and follow him (Christ), in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Do you think this aspect is also a finished work of the cross? (E.g. Gods work is done in us and through us)?

I understand the drawing, but what of conviction and/or discernment? If you note my previous mention of the time I watched the secret, my gut instinct was that it was wrong and I saw evil in the eyes of two "endorsers". If you had known my thinking then, I was (and still am not) a person who could willy-nilly call someone else evil, due to my traumatic background.

In order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, we must have the Holy Spirit, the same spirit that raised Christ from the dead, Romans 8:11, "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you. It is at this time that we will inherit the Kingdom of God.

When Jesus said to pick up our cross in Luke 9:23, they were under the old testament; the new testament had not come in full force yet because Jesus had not died on the cross. Only when the testator dies does a testament becomes in full force, Hebrews 9:16-17. So under the old testament when Jesus said take up your cross, for them at that time, the taking up the cross was based on works to enter the Kingdom, and even then they could not enter because Christ had not died. But their righteousness in taking up their cross and following Christ, under the law, permitted them to be released from Abraham's bosom upon Christs death, when He descended to the lower parts fo the earth, Ephesians 4:9-10.

But after Jesus's death, under the new testament, we are not told to take up our cross. Yes, the finished work of Christ is done in us and through us by the Holy Spirit. God has done for us what the law could not do for us, Romans 8:3, He sent His Son.

We receive the gift of discernment from the Holy Spirit. And sometimes we can get confused about a situation, but the Holy Spirit is our guide.

It's the Holy Spirit that gives us the Spirit of Discernment. Our ability to discern does not come from us at all. It's a blessing from the Holy Spirit. Sometimes traumatic childhoods can cause us to grieve the Holy Spirit and not recognize His guidance, because we feel more guilty about things, or might judge a situation wrong out of being overly careful, or not wanting to harm anyone. But the Holy Spirit guides and leads us into all truth. We have to learn to listen to the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

There is nothing wrong with recognizing evil and deciding to get away from it or stop participating in something you feel uncomfortable about. We are told to be careful. We have to judge situation that might not be good for us. We are not wrong for doing this.
 
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YahuahSaves

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It's the Holy Spirit that gives us the Spirit of Discernment. Our ability to discern does not come from us at all. It's a blessing from the Holy Spirit. Sometimes traumatic childhoods can cause us to grieve the Holy Spirit and not recognize His guidance, because we feel more guilty about things, or might judge a situation wrong out of being overly careful, or not wanting to harm anyone. But the Holy Spirit guides and leads us into all truth. We have to learn to listen to the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
You are the first person I've come across to say that Jesus quote from the new testament about picking up the cross and following him was directed at the believers under the old law... what made you come to that view?

What do you mean traumatic childhoods can cause us to grieve the Holy Spirit? If the Holy Spirit has to be given to us after we become believers, then how do we know the difference? My experience has been there's been no difference except that I didn't understand the reality of sin back then.. and "my heart of stone became one of flesh" all because of him and nothing I did, (but this was after asking for forgiveness). I wonder how much change is a choice on our part and how much is God placing us in situations and surrounding us with people that force change? (As per my own experiences, this seems to be the case).

As for discernment, since coming to Christ, I have been shown by him that there is indeed evil, and there are some that are most definitely following deceitful spirits that are not of him (e.g. witchcraft).
 
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biblelesson

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You are the first person I've come across to say that Jesus quote from the new testament about picking up the cross and following him was directed at the believers under the old law... what made you come to that view?
Remember the scriptures in Matthew 8:4 where Jesus healed a man and afterwards told him to show himself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them. Even though Jesus was the one that healed the man, He still told the man to go to one of the Levite Priests and offer an animal sacrifice in the temple for purification. That man was under the law of Moses.

But today, our cleansing and purification is in Christ Jesus because it is the blood of Christ that was shed on the cross that purifies us. So for those under the law during the time Jesus taught and healed people, their taking up the cross was based on works, the law of Moses. But our taking up the cross after Jesus death is Jesus Himself living in us. Jesus has taken up the cross for us himself. That's why we are told to believe on Him, who has done everything for us that law could not do. He has already made us holy. We are to put the old man off, not crucify ourselves. We have already been crucified with Him. We are now led by the Holy Spirit of Christ.

Some things Jesus taught had not been done yet, and would only be done after His death. For example in John 7:39, when Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about how a man can be born again. Jesus said accept a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus was speaking of the Holy Spirit which had not been given yet because He had not died. Also, in John 7:38-39, Jesus taught that those that believeth on him, out of their bely shall flow rivers of water. Vs 39 says, "But he's spake of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified. Meaning Jesus had not died and rose (being glorified), to give those that believe the Holy Spirit.

Traumatic childhoods create the very emotions that the Bible tells us we must put off: Fear, doubt, depression, pride, and other emotions. These are the emotions (motions) that we must put off - put off the old man. The only way a person who has been traumatized during childhood can overcome some of these powerful, terrible learned behaviors is through the Power of the Holy Spirit. Healing must take place, and it is Jesus who does the healing. But if we don't understand that, and don't know that it is the Holy Spirit gently and lovely guiding us, we then without knowing it can grieve him through our learned responses based on that traumatic childhood - we are no match against the "spirit of trauma" that operated during childhood. That spirit is too great for us to handle. But that "spirit of trauma" is no match against the Holy Spirit. Remember God said, I have not given you the spirit of fear (evil spirit operating in many way, to include trauma), but POWER, LOVE AND A SOUND MIND. We through the Holy Spirit have been given POWER, LOVE AND A SOUND MIND from God to dwell in us because of Jesus Christ.


God bless you
 
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Francis Drake

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That's interesting, can you give any details of that, like how he led you from that day forward until you repented? (If you want to, no pressure).

I had an experience 5 years ago where I was shown God is already  there within our spirit..like the whole reason we're even alive is because of him...and it is our minds and our human will that keeps us separated from the truth. (Of course, I could not verify that with scripture alone I don't think) but in the case of redemption, when Jesus died on the cross, and from that point forward, he has been drawing people to him. He took the sins of the whole world, and for all time, upon himself - and now its up to us to answer his call...

One of these days I'm going to do some serious journalling, and study of scripture, but since I'm "newish" to the faith, and early in my walk, I don't want to make a mistake and be deceived, so I am taking my time to learn of him through the lens of the bible alone.
My understanding completely contradicts the usual evangelical viewpoint.
Romans1 is very specific that God has revealed himself to ALL MEN, that all men know the truth deep inside, deep in their conscience.

Read the words carefully..........
Romans1v18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
The above scripture is not about understanding Doctrine, not about the Christian gospel, nor the crucifixion. It is a constant drawing of the Holy Spirit pulling on the heartstrings of all men calling them to bend their will towards him.

When a man bows his heart and acknowledges God, IT IS AT THAT POINT HIS SPIRIT IS BORN AGAIN.

Take note, new birth has absolutely nothing to do with preaching the typical gospel message.

Taking it even further.-
1Cor1v18For the message of the cross is FOOLISHNESS TO THOSE WHO ARE PERISHING, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

The above phrase, "Those who are perishing", refers to those who are spiritually dead, ie. not born again. Such people cannot possibly understand the cross because they are SPIRITUALLY DEAD.
The above tells us at least 3 things. -
1) To comprehend the message of the cross, ie. the death and resurrection of Jesus, you must already be born again!
2) The message of the cross was never aimed at getting people born again.
3) The message of the cross is meant entirely for those who are previously born again, and is about discipleship and growing in spiritual power.

Getting people born again was never the responsibility of Christians, pastors or evangelists. Getting people born again is the sole job of the Holy Spirit.
According to Romans1, as posted above, God has a hotline to the inner heart of every man. If God through his spirit cannot convict that man, how do we expect to do so!

Paul makes it clear that a man without the Spirit is a dead man and does not have the equipment to comprehend the message.
1Cor2v14But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Before man can accept THE THINGS about God, he first has to be made alive by accepting THE IMPLANTED SEED OF GOD. In other words, as per Romans1, man has to surrender to God's convicting presence in his conscience. This is what the parable of the sower is all about. How deep do we allow the seed of the Spirit to be planted?
The extent that we allow the seed of the spirit to grow in our hearts, is the extent that spiritual discernment grows.

So back to my own experience.
I mentioned that God spoke to me in my early teens. But before that, I had already had an encounter with God in my bedroom, and I said to God "Don't forget me..........".

He didn't forget me, and some years later he spoke to me in the street.

I was with a group of kids from an Anglican church youth club at a bus stop. I was at the periphery of a discussion when someone suddenly said, "OK then, who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?" Everybody turned around to an older lad called Ray who was the altar boy, and he boldly answered, "That's easy, good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell!"

As that happened, it was as if a blanket descended upon me, a blanket of truth. I heard these words. "He is totally wrong because everybody is bad, and I am bad, but God has made a way, and I don't live in that church, I live in your heart!"

In the four years we were at that church, I do not recall the gospel being preached, so those words were not from my head knowledge but external to me, although heard within.

From that time on I switched off to Christianity, or at least what passed for Christianity by my limited experience. As far as I was concerned, my belief in God was an internal experience. I knew what I knew and church was an irrelevant nonsense. (That was a subjective judgement of weak Anglican preaching.)

Then in my mid-twenties, I was doing a college course and ended up being accosted by the Godsquad, the college Christian union. I made it clear that I had no interest in Christianity, but there were some interesting girls there, so I went along for amusement's sake.

Gradually, after a few arguments, I realised they were talking about the God I already knew.

At that point, it was the conviction of the Spirit that drew me. I was being drawn in.

I made a full commitment to Christ and started walking with him.

They made me jump through their hoops, pray the "sinner's prayer", and told me I was now "born again".

I was quite overwhelmed because I was experiencing the Holy Spirit in a far deeper way than I'd ever done before. But there is no way that I was newly "born again". That had happened long before in my childhood.
 
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YahuahSaves

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But today, our cleansing and purification is in Christ Jesus because it is the blood of Christ that was shed on the cross that purifies us. So for those under the law during the time Jesus taught and healed people, their taking up the cross was based on works, the law of Moses. But our taking up the cross after Jesus death is Jesus Himself living in us. Jesus has taken up the cross for us himself. That's why we are told to believe on Him, who has done everything for us that law could not do. He has already made us holy. We are to put the old man off, not crucify ourselves. We have already been crucified with Him. We are now led by the Holy Spirit of Christ.
I kind of understand what you're trying to say, however I am beginning to believe the faith in the work of the cross is what helps us to put off our old man. The belief that Jesus has already taken our sin upon himself is the belief that he has already given us the power to overcome sin.
Jesus taught that those that believeth on him, out of their bely shall flow rivers of water.

I still believe we must participate in the daily action "choice" of denying self, if we are asked/guided to do something and we continue to doubt or refuse then we can quench the Holy Spirit in this way. (Preventing the Holy Spirit from fully working through us). But I also believe healing takes time and God is not against using everything available to bring us to surrender. For example, in my own life since coming to Christ, I have had nothing but "triggers" surrounding me in situations and people, that has been very painful to say the least, but I'm beginning to see was necessary to remove the reactivity of my "old man", and begin to see people as Christ sees them. I believe this is the way God has been healing me and making me a "new creation". He hasn't been "doing it for me" but I have had to recognise he has been "working in me" to change my perspective and behaviour over time, and obviously it's a process but I believe that when God starts a work in you, he will finish it, and the time it takes to accept his will for us is dependent on the individual.
 
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YahuahSaves

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According to Romans1, as posted above, God has a hotline to the inner heart of every man. If God through his spirit cannot convict that man, how do we expect to do so!
Thank you for your testimony. In my experience 5 years ago I also think the life and death often spoken of in the bible is spiritual in its meaning. And I agree (although controversial) we already have this spiritual connection with God but have focused on and placed our faith in ourselves and the world, instead of in HIM. also in this way we are "spiritually dead".
Like the scripture says:

John 1:4​

4 The Word gave life to everything that was created,[a]
and his life brought light to everyone.

John 8

Jesus, the Light of the World​

12 Jesus spoke to the people once more and said, “I am the light of the world. If you follow me, you won’t have to walk in darkness, because you will have the light that leads to life.”

John 1:10

10 He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him. 11 He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. 12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. 13 They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.

In the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, in their shame "covered" themselves. But nothing is hidden from God, so how were they able to "hide"? It is shame that separates us from the love of God. I also think our minds and our human will are what keeps us from being open to God and"seeking" the truth, and also keeps us "quenching" the Holy Spirits leading. I believe God wants to show us all the truth and have us live rightly with him, walking with him in "spirit and truth" but because we "lean on our own understanding", it takes some longer to seek and surrender than others.

Hebrews 12:2

2 We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith.[a] Because of the joy awaiting him, he endured the cross, disregarding its shame. Now he is seated in the place of honor beside God’s throne.

I hope what I'm trying to convey here makes sense, (my pup was distracting me as I tried to respond to you). Lol
 
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port41919

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Just a discussion here, I'm not interested in debating.

I just want to know what others views are on this question? If a person already had a background in religion, believed in their heart in the Heavenly Father, but was never taught properly about the Holy Trinity (e.g. that Jesus is the Son of God, but is not God) could they still have the Holy Spirit convicting them and guiding them in things like spiritual discernment?

edit* I ask this question because it seems before I came to Christ, I was being drawn.

John 6

44 For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up. 45 As it is written in the Scriptures,
‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

I have recently (in the past year) come to Christ. I'm asking this question out of curiosity, because the only point of difference to my experiences with God has been Jesus. (Albeit, the proper addition of Jesus to my understanding has made a big difference).

Experience appreciated, thanks
I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). Accept Jesus, receive the Holy Spirit
 
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anetazo

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Corthians chapter 2, you need the holy spirit to help convict you of sin. Some people have spirit of slumber for their protection. Those with free will have spirit of slumber. Read Roman's chapter 11, Isaiah chapter 29, and chapter 6. Few have holy spirit. Many have spirit of stupor. I documented this.
 
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Francis Drake

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Just a discussion here, I'm not interested in debating.

I just want to know what others views are on this question? If a person already had a background in religion, believed in their heart in the Heavenly Father, but was never taught properly about the Holy Trinity (e.g. that Jesus is the Son of God, but is not God) could they still have the Holy Spirit convicting them and guiding them in things like spiritual discernment?

edit* I ask this question because it seems before I came to Christ, I was being drawn.

John 6

44 For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up. 45 As it is written in the Scriptures,
‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

I have recently (in the past year) come to Christ. I'm asking this question out of curiosity, because the only point of difference to my experiences with God has been Jesus. (Albeit, the proper addition of Jesus to my understanding has made a big difference).

Experience appreciated, thanks
Absolutely yes.
In fact I'd go further and say, essentially yes!

I knew the Lord over a decade before I heard the gospel and repented.

I heard him speak to me very distinctly in my early teens, but still had no theology. When I met the "Godsquad" in my mid twenties, I didn't want anything to do with them, but eventually I realised they were talking about the God I had already accepted in my heart.
 
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Francis Drake

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No. Luke 11:13 is only for believers. The 120 were already saved yet were told to wait for the promise. That promise what the sweet sweet holy Spirit that Jesus said Hew will pray to the Father and He will send another comforter. "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever". I do not understand why some do not ask when were told by Christ to ask. Christ asked the Father.

So no one can have the holy spirit before they are saved. What does happen is some ask from the Holy Spirit and are not saved and they can get another spirit. God can not lie any believer that asks the Father for the holy spirit will only get the only spirit and no other. If I said that good lol.
In stating that no one can have the Holy Spirit before they are saved, you are clearly contradicting what Jesus said in the very verse you quote.-

Lk11v9“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11If a son asks for [e]bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

The above verse is very specific, the Heavenly father will not give a serpent or scorpion to those who ask for the HS. And elsewhere, Jesus describes serpents and scorpions as Satanic agents, ie, evil spirits.

The very act of asking for the Holy Spirit is a statement of belief, and nowhere does it state that prayers of repentance or the sinners prayer must come first.
Anyone means anyone.

Here the same in the OT, ie. It has always been the case that anyone who asked could receive. Sadly, most believers show little interest in being led directly by the Spirit.
Proverbs1v…22“How long, O simple ones, will you love your simple ways? How long will scoffers delight in their scorn and fools hate knowledge? 23If you had repented at my rebuke, then surely I would have poured out my spirit on you; I would have made my words known to you.
 
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Francis Drake

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I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). Accept Jesus, receive the Holy Spirit
No one comes to the Father except through me.

Amen. But this has always been the case because Jesus is the God manifest throughout the Old testament. It is He who walked with Adam in the Garden. It is He who brought the Israelites out of Egypt with Moses.

Nowhere does it say we need to possess the right theology to get eternal life, we just put our trust in the one who made us, as men have always done.
 
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