Assurance of Salvation 2
- Thread starter Gerry
- Start date
Oh I can't go through this argument again!!!
Doesn't anyone every read through the archives so we don't have to do the same thing over and over every week!?
Doesn't anyone every read through the archives so we don't have to do the same thing over and over every week!?
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Unfortunately, Lamb'slove, the traffic through here is so high, and those threads are so long (one of 'em is 47 pages!), no one cares to take the effort. And if your post is too long,it will be skimmed rather than read. I myself try to read the posts on the threads I respond to.
And there are always new faces, too...
Gerry, the question cuts to the heart of "what is the SUBSTANCE of our salvation?" I think the understanding, throughout Scripture, is that salvation is for those who believe. So that when Rom5:18 says "justification for all men", the implied understanding is that it is available for all, and applies to those who RECEIVE Jesus. Here in Heb10:14 we see the same application---and the understanding is "He has perfected all who RECEIVE (and abide in), HIM".
If the writer of Hebrews did not believe in "falling-from-salvation", please help me understand 2:1-3, 3:12-14 (what does IF mean? Hypothetical-but-CAN'T-happen? Or POSSIBLE?), 4:1, 6:4-6 ("partakers" is "metochos", same as in 3:1 and 3:14), 10:26-27, 10:29, 10:35-36.
10:39 is an encouragement, "but we are not of those who shrink back to destruction but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul".
How do these verses (and others, 13:9) indicate that the writer believed in "eternal security"?
PS: in 6, the operative, "WHILE they ARE falling away" is the reason they "won't WANT to repent"...
And there are always new faces, too...
Gerry, the question cuts to the heart of "what is the SUBSTANCE of our salvation?" I think the understanding, throughout Scripture, is that salvation is for those who believe. So that when Rom5:18 says "justification for all men", the implied understanding is that it is available for all, and applies to those who RECEIVE Jesus. Here in Heb10:14 we see the same application---and the understanding is "He has perfected all who RECEIVE (and abide in), HIM".
If the writer of Hebrews did not believe in "falling-from-salvation", please help me understand 2:1-3, 3:12-14 (what does IF mean? Hypothetical-but-CAN'T-happen? Or POSSIBLE?), 4:1, 6:4-6 ("partakers" is "metochos", same as in 3:1 and 3:14), 10:26-27, 10:29, 10:35-36.
10:39 is an encouragement, "but we are not of those who shrink back to destruction but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul".
How do these verses (and others, 13:9) indicate that the writer believed in "eternal security"?
PS: in 6, the operative, "WHILE they ARE falling away" is the reason they "won't WANT to repent"...
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Altya, that's because Gerry cheated. First he posted something like, "can you lose your salvation" (citing some of the verses I referred to), then after two of us had replied, he changed it---making us look silly...
Shame, shame, Gerry...
Shame, shame, Gerry...
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ME? First of all you have misrepresented your self Mr. Johnson. I posted NOTHING of the kind!
And as for looking silly, you do not need me to do that. You do a good job of making yourself look silly when your zeal to be right does not allow you to accurately read or understand what was posted.
Your only intent was to make me look like a fool. Well OK. I will gladly be a fool for Christ. Everytime.
Now Alta, the TRUTH is that in this forum, where people like Mr. Johnson do not venture, as a rule, I posted a verse concerning assurance to a new convert of salvation.
As you know I have some experience in the field of evangelism, which this forum is aledged to be about. I decided to give a few examples, because in my experience, it is vitally important to assure the new convert thier prayer has been heard, and that they indeed are saved and it is not something God will change His mind about.
But Mr. Johnson has quickly jumped in on the debate of once saved always saved. He incorrectly assumed it because I cited John 3:16, in which is the words "Everlasting life", which I pointed out was Eternal and not temporary. This in an effort to prove God's position towards the new convert and not to express my opinion on OSAS. Although that IS my position untill some sincere person can show me otherwise.
That was NOT the topic here, never was and I will never engage in it. That is why I stay out of the forums designed for that purpose.
Now Mr. Johnson takes it upon himself to return here, and call me a CHEAT.
Well, if that is what makes Mr. Johnson feel good, then so be it.
But Alta you know who asked for this forum and why. You know what my heart is about. My only concern is new converts. Making them, praying with, and for them, and getting them started with a few assurances from God's Word.
You led a young Lady to Christ recently. I started a thread here in this forum for Christians to post prayers and words of encouragement for a new convert of only a few days.
I wish Mr. Johnson had cared enough to post an encouraging word for her rather than seeking a debate with me over and issue that was not the point. Because I will not engage in a debate.
But, even though I withdrew the posts that Mr. Johnson was offended by, and publically apologized, it is clear that is not enough, and I will continually now be called names like "Cheat". So be it.
I bear no ill will towards Mr. Johnson or any of the others whose belief on some point of doctrine may be different from mine.
The PROOF of this is in my reply to Souljah, who was the first to object to my post, and the reply I made to him made clear my intent and the fact I will not debate God's Word.
I respect Souljah and said so. I do not wish trouble or debates with anyone.
All people who accept Jesus Christ as thier personal Saviour are my brothers and sisters, and I will respect them as such. I care not if they are Baptist or Catholic or any thing in between or not even close to either.
Jesus is all that matters to me, and I confess to being a bit hurt by name calling from a brother to whom I have meant no harm and already apologized to once.
Because of the following verses, from I Corinthians 8, I think it best I no longer post in this forum.
"And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend."
Once again I apologize to Mr. Johnson and all others I have offended by my stance. That was never my intent.
And as for looking silly, you do not need me to do that. You do a good job of making yourself look silly when your zeal to be right does not allow you to accurately read or understand what was posted.
Your only intent was to make me look like a fool. Well OK. I will gladly be a fool for Christ. Everytime.
Now Alta, the TRUTH is that in this forum, where people like Mr. Johnson do not venture, as a rule, I posted a verse concerning assurance to a new convert of salvation.
As you know I have some experience in the field of evangelism, which this forum is aledged to be about. I decided to give a few examples, because in my experience, it is vitally important to assure the new convert thier prayer has been heard, and that they indeed are saved and it is not something God will change His mind about.
But Mr. Johnson has quickly jumped in on the debate of once saved always saved. He incorrectly assumed it because I cited John 3:16, in which is the words "Everlasting life", which I pointed out was Eternal and not temporary. This in an effort to prove God's position towards the new convert and not to express my opinion on OSAS. Although that IS my position untill some sincere person can show me otherwise.
That was NOT the topic here, never was and I will never engage in it. That is why I stay out of the forums designed for that purpose.
Now Mr. Johnson takes it upon himself to return here, and call me a CHEAT.
Well, if that is what makes Mr. Johnson feel good, then so be it.
But Alta you know who asked for this forum and why. You know what my heart is about. My only concern is new converts. Making them, praying with, and for them, and getting them started with a few assurances from God's Word.
You led a young Lady to Christ recently. I started a thread here in this forum for Christians to post prayers and words of encouragement for a new convert of only a few days.
I wish Mr. Johnson had cared enough to post an encouraging word for her rather than seeking a debate with me over and issue that was not the point. Because I will not engage in a debate.
But, even though I withdrew the posts that Mr. Johnson was offended by, and publically apologized, it is clear that is not enough, and I will continually now be called names like "Cheat". So be it.
I bear no ill will towards Mr. Johnson or any of the others whose belief on some point of doctrine may be different from mine.
The PROOF of this is in my reply to Souljah, who was the first to object to my post, and the reply I made to him made clear my intent and the fact I will not debate God's Word.
I respect Souljah and said so. I do not wish trouble or debates with anyone.
All people who accept Jesus Christ as thier personal Saviour are my brothers and sisters, and I will respect them as such. I care not if they are Baptist or Catholic or any thing in between or not even close to either.
Jesus is all that matters to me, and I confess to being a bit hurt by name calling from a brother to whom I have meant no harm and already apologized to once.
Because of the following verses, from I Corinthians 8, I think it best I no longer post in this forum.
"And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend."
Once again I apologize to Mr. Johnson and all others I have offended by my stance. That was never my intent.
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Certainly not!
Lamb's love thought the same thing as I...
I was teasing, Gerry. But I shall keep in mind your sensitivity next time...
I was not offended in the least. But obviously you were.
So the apology, is mine...
I hope we all learn to laugh in our approaches to life. It is far too serious as it is. Laughter is the best medicine, and God has a great sense of humor. Laughter lifts the heart, disperses good endorphines, soothes the soul, and chases away the sorrows. Laughter is the mortar between the bricks of love. It dries the tears and creases the brow.
Let us not take each other, or ourselves, too terribly seriously...
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I do not take myself too seriously! However when it comes to salvation, I am VERY serious, and I do not believe it is even possible to be too serious.
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In your original post (that you deleted) you made some statements that I found unscriptural. Both Lamb'slove and I found them contending for one "OSAS" view, apparently wanting to start another discussion (both of us took your post as this)---so I countered with Scripture, intending to challenge you.
I did not intend to make you angry, nor "make you look foolish"---only challenge you to "contend for your faith". I sincerely apologize that I offended you.
Salvation is a very serious thing for me, too; this is why I persist in discussions, which cut to the nature of the substance of our salvation. I am ever fearful of "engaging in sensless arguments", or "contentions disputes and factions" (fruits of the flesh), but also strive to gently "contend for the faith", to "destroy their arguments" and always to "present myself dignified, pure in doctrine, sound in speech which is beyond reproach".
If I can convey the nature of salvation to my brothers and sisters, as I understand it (as "being in FELLOWSHIP with Him), I believe it only strengthens their walk. And in that fellowship with my brothers and sisters, I am strengthened too.
I wish only to see you grow stronger in Him, Gerry. Nothing more, nothing less.
This is my creed, this is my song:
"Lord, let my life be a prayer to You,
In everything I say, in everything I do;
The fields are white, the harvesters few;
let me be one of the few!"
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I understand that in your opinion you and Lambslove are in some way superior in intellect and knowledge and above me by far in any Spiritual sense. And as far as I know you may well be.
I appreciate your concern for my Spiritual growth and maturity. But God has NOT informed me that He would be sending you to train me.
I also am very sure He did NOT send you, since you said you found some things in my original post to be "unscriptural".
That indicates to me a lack of understanding the Scriptures on your part. I am sorry to inform you, that I have no need for your interpretation of the Scriptures. That has been done and redone and I have studied under some who read the original languages better than I read English.
I am only interested in application, which you say is contention. That is what it is for you, but for me it is Evangelism. I could care less what you or anyone else "believes" about whether you can lose your salvation.
I explained once what the posts were far, but you seem to be one unable to hear for speaking; unable to learn for teaching.
All I say is take your contention somewhere else when one is trying to lead another to Jesus or establish them in their own salvation. It serves no useful purpose for a baby Christian or one "seeking" to be caught up in a "discussion" by 2 Christians about the plan of salvation in itself.
It would seem to me that what I have stated is a simple enough fact that everyone could agree on it.
As for me and offending me, you misunderstand, as has Lambslove and Alta too. I am not offended for my own sake.
I care less what you think of me as a person, or how retarded or "beneath" you I may be. I simply do not appreciate you or anyone offending a little one. You in your superior Biblical knowledge are well aware Jesus had some things to say about that Himself, or at least that is the way I read it. I am sure I am in error there also.
My point is simple. You may have noticed I do not follow you around correcting you are trying to show you up where
ever you go and post. You are doing God no favor by doing that to me, and if you think you are you are seriously mistaken.
You have thought by showing me up to Alta you will somehow improve your image with her! Is she so shallow? If so what is the benefit in looking good in her eyes?
YET this is EXACTLY what you do when you debate OSAS, and engage in making a brother to appear a fool.
If that is your purpose in life, I will keep you quite busy. Because I will do as I always do, and post TRUTH backed up by Scripture and you and the argumentative spirit you have will stay very busy contending, but do not be disappointed when I ignore your "challenge". I have no time for it.
I appreciate your concern for my Spiritual growth and maturity. But God has NOT informed me that He would be sending you to train me.
I also am very sure He did NOT send you, since you said you found some things in my original post to be "unscriptural".
That indicates to me a lack of understanding the Scriptures on your part. I am sorry to inform you, that I have no need for your interpretation of the Scriptures. That has been done and redone and I have studied under some who read the original languages better than I read English.
I am only interested in application, which you say is contention. That is what it is for you, but for me it is Evangelism. I could care less what you or anyone else "believes" about whether you can lose your salvation.
I explained once what the posts were far, but you seem to be one unable to hear for speaking; unable to learn for teaching.
All I say is take your contention somewhere else when one is trying to lead another to Jesus or establish them in their own salvation. It serves no useful purpose for a baby Christian or one "seeking" to be caught up in a "discussion" by 2 Christians about the plan of salvation in itself.
It would seem to me that what I have stated is a simple enough fact that everyone could agree on it.
As for me and offending me, you misunderstand, as has Lambslove and Alta too. I am not offended for my own sake.
I care less what you think of me as a person, or how retarded or "beneath" you I may be. I simply do not appreciate you or anyone offending a little one. You in your superior Biblical knowledge are well aware Jesus had some things to say about that Himself, or at least that is the way I read it. I am sure I am in error there also.
My point is simple. You may have noticed I do not follow you around correcting you are trying to show you up where
ever you go and post. You are doing God no favor by doing that to me, and if you think you are you are seriously mistaken.
You have thought by showing me up to Alta you will somehow improve your image with her! Is she so shallow? If so what is the benefit in looking good in her eyes?
YET this is EXACTLY what you do when you debate OSAS, and engage in making a brother to appear a fool.
If that is your purpose in life, I will keep you quite busy. Because I will do as I always do, and post TRUTH backed up by Scripture and you and the argumentative spirit you have will stay very busy contending, but do not be disappointed when I ignore your "challenge". I have no time for it.
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There was none of this in my posts. And I said, that if I appeared as such to you, then I asked your forgiveness. I hope that someday you will find it in your heart to forgive us.
The "GET NEW" function returns all new posts, from all forums. If one appears that catches my eye, I look at it. I saw the "Assurance of salvation", I clicked and read an argument for OSAS. I simply responded with Scripture. So then I was not "following anyone around".
As to "presenting the Gospel to young/baby/not-yet Christians", well, if the Gospel conveys salvation as "FELLOWSHIP" and "ABIDING", if that is so, would it not be a dis-service to not tell them about it?
If I may make a request of you, if you find me in any position that you do not think completely follows Scripture, I sincerely and humbly request that you tell me about it. I am far from perfect, and I will listen with appreciation. I may not always agree, but I am open to admonishment from my brother.
"The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man is he who listens to counsel." Prov12:15 (Lest there be further misunderstanding, I quoted this verse only in reference to myself...
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Thunderchild
Sheep in Wolf's clothing
Having read through all the learned discussion and considered opinions ventured on this thread, I can only say one thing.
Ummm, what was the topic of this thread, again?
Ummm, what was the topic of this thread, again?
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