Armageddon

[reddogs]

Many think that Armageddon is about the literal Jews, or the literal nation of Israel will completely reverse itself and become Christians? But the prophecy of Armageddon is concerned with 'spiritual Jews', the embattled remnant group of faithful followers of Jesus Christ. Those followers are sometimes referred to as the “tribes of Israel” and spoken of in the context of Jewish customs.

Jesus had explained to the Jewish leaders in the clearest possible language that their rejection of Him would seal their own rejection as the children of the kingdom. “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” Matthew 21:43.

The many Biblical promises were primarily aimed toward immediate blessings that God wanted to bestow on the Jewish nation. But in a secondary sense they pointed forward to a larger spiritual fulfillment on a worldwide level. Even when the local fulfillment failed when Israel failed to be faithful, the promises were never nullified or withdrawn. They will be honored, but only to that “nation” which Jesus said must replace the Jews as receivers of the kingdom. The New Testament is saturated with clear statements as to who the new Israel is.

Peter describes them in these words:
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light”.1 Peter 2:9, 10

Here is the new nation which replaces the nation of Israel. The Gentiles who will receive the true Messiah now enter into the New Covenant, ratified by the blood of the cross, and become the true spiritual Israel of God. The Bible says that they are counted as the actual seed of Abraham:
“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” .Galatians 3:29

Paul makes it even clearer in Romans 9:8. “They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” Again, Paul wrote, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart”. Romans 2:28, 29

As we study Armageddon, it is tremendously important to keep this mind, that the kingdom prophecies given by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc., have a double application. One to be fulfilled locally; the other to be fulfilled on a worldwide scale in the last days. And the church takes the place of the nation as God’s true chosen people. With this background we are prepared to study the subject of Armageddon. That world-ending conflict is tied closely to the things we have just stated about spiritual Israel and a most amazing parallel exists between what happened to ancient Israel and the events concerning spiritual Israel in the book of Revelation.

Ancient Israel ------------------------------- Spiritual Israel
Jer. 50:33,34 --Persecuted by Babylon --------Rev. 17:6
Dan. 3:13 ------Forced to worship image ------Rev. 13:15
Dan. 4:30 ------Called “Babylon the Great” ----Rev. 17:5
Jer. 51:13,14 --Babylon sits on many waters --Rev. 17:1
Isa. 44:27,28 --Rescued—dried Euphrates -----Rev. 16:12
Jer. 51:6-8 -----Called out of Babylon ----------Rev. 18:4
Isa. 45:1 -------Rescuer called the anointed --- Dan. 9:25
Isa. 41:2, 25 ---Both rescuers from east -------Mat. 24:27, Rev. 7:2

You will notice that God’s people had almost the same experience in the Old Testament and the New Testament. They were forced to worship an image of Babylon, and were rescued by a king from the east who dried up the river Euphrates to set them free. Looking at the two we can find the similarities between the two people, one literal and the other spiritual.

The church at the end or God’s people of the last days, will be persecuted and threatened with death just like ancient Israel. In the book of Revelation they are delivered from spiritual Babylon in connection with the battle of Armageddon:

“And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. ... And he gathered them together in a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon”. Revelation 16:12-16

So now we have the setting for Armageddon, and now we will go into describing what happens.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Many think that Armageddon is about the literal Jews, or the literal nation of Israel will completely reverse itself and become Christians? But the prophecy of Armageddon is concerned with 'spiritual Jews', the embattled remnant group of faithful followers of Jesus Christ. Those followers are sometimes referred to as the “tribes of Israel” and spoken of in the context of Jewish customs.

Jesus had explained to the Jewish leaders in the clearest possible language that their rejection of Him would seal their own rejection as the children of the kingdom. “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” Matthew 21:43.

The many Biblical promises were primarily aimed toward immediate blessings that God wanted to bestow on the Jewish nation. But in a secondary sense they pointed forward to a larger spiritual fulfillment on a worldwide level. Even when the local fulfillment failed when Israel failed to be faithful, the promises were never nullified or withdrawn. They will be honored, but only to that “nation” which Jesus said must replace the Jews as receivers of the kingdom. The New Testament is saturated with clear statements as to who the new Israel is.

Peter describes them in these words:
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light”.1 Peter 2:9, 10

Here is the new nation which replaces the nation of Israel. The Gentiles who will receive the true Messiah now enter into the New Covenant, ratified by the blood of the cross, and become the true spiritual Israel of God. The Bible says that they are counted as the actual seed of Abraham:
“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” .Galatians 3:29

Paul makes it even clearer in Romans 9:8. “They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” Again, Paul wrote, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart”. Romans 2:28, 29

As we study Armageddon, it is tremendously important to keep this mind, that the kingdom prophecies given by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc., have a double application. One to be fulfilled locally; the other to be fulfilled on a worldwide scale in the last days. And the church takes the place of the nation as God’s true chosen people. With this background we are prepared to study the subject of Armageddon. That world-ending conflict is tied closely to the things we have just stated about spiritual Israel and a most amazing parallel exists between what happened to ancient Israel and the events concerning spiritual Israel in the book of Revelation.

Ancient Israel ------------------------------- Spiritual Israel
Jer. 50:33,34 --Persecuted by Babylon --------Rev. 17:6
Dan. 3:13 ------Forced to worship image ------Rev. 13:15
Dan. 4:30 ------Called “Babylon the Great” ----Rev. 17:5
Jer. 51:13,14 --Babylon sits on many waters --Rev. 17:1
Isa. 44:27,28 --Rescued—dried Euphrates -----Rev. 16:12
Jer. 51:6-8 -----Called out of Babylon ----------Rev. 18:4
Isa. 45:1 -------Rescuer called the anointed --- Dan. 9:25
Isa. 41:2, 25 ---Both rescuers from east -------Mat. 24:27, Rev. 7:2

You will notice that God’s people had almost the same experience in the Old Testament and the New Testament. They were forced to worship an image of Babylon, and were rescued by a king from the east who dried up the river Euphrates to set them free. Looking at the two we can find the similarities between the two people, one literal and the other spiritual.

The church at the end or God’s people of the last days, will be persecuted and threatened with death just like ancient Israel. In the book of Revelation they are delivered from spiritual Babylon in connection with the battle of Armageddon:

“And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. ... And he gathered them together in a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon”. Revelation 16:12-16

So now we have the setting for Armageddon, and now we will go into describing what happens.

Revelation was primarily written by John to describe the present situation that Christians had to contend with in the Roman Empire. Much of the imagery can reliably describe the downfall of the Romans and God's judgment against them.

The vision of the events in Heaven are those that were happening in John's time, and also in ours - before the Second Coming of Christ. It encourages the suffering Christians of John's time that no matter what happens to them, Jesus Christ will emerge and the overall Lord and victor. In fact, He is the victor at this present time for those in the kingdom of God.

I don't think that Revelation can be used as reliable doctrine for end-time events to come. Many have tried and have been proved totally wrong.

Apocalyptic literature is symbolic and cannot be taken literally. It is not a reliable foundation for doctrine.

Revelation starts with Jesus' instruction and warning to the churches that existed in John's time. We can't really apply them to our churches because our modern churches are so divided and factionalised that the description of the churches in Revelation cannot really fit.

I think that those who are obsessed with end-time events are looking at the wrong end of things. They need to look to the genuineness of their own conversion - whether they are truly converted to Christ. They need to work on making their election sure, and to do that, they need to study the promises in the Word that point to establishing a good foundation for true conversion and to examine themselves to ensure that they are true converts to Christ and not religious hypocrites. What's the point of being an authority on end-time events when the foundation of basic conversion to Christ is unsure and there is a likelihood of ending up in hell?

 

[reddogs]

Lets take a look at Revelation to see what is tells us, we look in chapter 13:

"1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Revelation 13:1-8

We see a power that blasphemes against God and makes war on the saints, and all whose names are not written in the book of life, follow this beast. Satan will succeed with this beast power in gaining the control that he failed to achieve in heaven, for Revelation 13:7 tells that he will have power over every tribe, people, language and nation.

Lets look further as we read of a second beast power who will also use deception to win most of the people to the first beasts side:

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." Revelation 13:11-15

This time is so bad that Jesus warned that these deceptions from end-time signs and miracles by false christs and false prophets will be so
intense that they will “deceive even the very elect", if that were possible.

"24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matthew 24:24

Satan’s attack on God’s people using the first beast power is intense and the second beast will cause anyone who refuses to worship the first beast to be killed. No lets look at Revelation 17:

"14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." Revelation 17:14

Revelation says that at the end, Satan will incite those under his control to “make war against the Lamb" or Jesus.” This is Armageddon.

 

[reddogs]

Revelation was primarily written by John to describe the present situation that Christians had to contend with in the Roman Empire. Much of the imagery can reliably describe the downfall of the Romans and God's judgment against them.

The vision of the events in Heaven are those that were happening in John's time, and also in ours - before the Second Coming of Christ. It encourages the suffering Christians of John's time that no matter what happens to them, Jesus Christ will emerge and the overall Lord and victor. In fact, He is the victor at this present time for those in the kingdom of God.

I don't think that Revelation can be used as reliable doctrine for end-time events to come. Many have tried and have been proved totally wrong.

Apocalyptic literature is symbolic and cannot be taken literally. It is not a reliable foundation for doctrine.

Revelation starts with Jesus' instruction and warning to the churches that existed in John's time. We can't really apply them to our churches because our modern churches are so divided and factionalised that the description of the churches in Revelation cannot really fit.

I think that those who are obsessed with end-time events are looking at the wrong end of things. They need to look to the genuineness of their own conversion - whether they are truly converted to Christ. They need to work on making their election sure, and to do that, they need to study the promises in the Word that point to establishing a good foundation for true conversion and to examine themselves to ensure that they are true converts to Christ and not religious hypocrites. What's the point of being an authority on end-time events when the foundation of basic conversion to Christ is unsure and there is a likelihood of ending up in hell?

I don't think we have seen the Lake of Fire yet, so it is the end time.

 

[reddogs]

We know were the war began, we see it in Revelation 12:
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,"Revelation 12:7

So we turn to Revelation 19 to see Armageddon:

"11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army." Revelation 19:11-19

John said that he saw Jesus riding out of heaven on a white horse to “make war.” “The armies of heaven were following him,” and "the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse". The war that began in heaven between Michael and Satan will end on our world as a battle between Jesus and the kings of the earth.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Many think that Armageddon is about the literal Jews, or the literal nation of Israel will completely reverse itself and become Christians? But the prophecy of Armageddon is concerned with 'spiritual Jews', the embattled remnant group of faithful followers of Jesus Christ. Those followers are sometimes referred to as the “tribes of Israel” and spoken of in the context of Jewish customs.

Jesus had explained to the Jewish leaders in the clearest possible language that their rejection of Him would seal their own rejection as the children of the kingdom. “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” Matthew 21:43.

The many Biblical promises were primarily aimed toward immediate blessings that God wanted to bestow on the Jewish nation. But in a secondary sense they pointed forward to a larger spiritual fulfillment on a worldwide level. Even when the local fulfillment failed when Israel failed to be faithful, the promises were never nullified or withdrawn. They will be honored, but only to that “nation” which Jesus said must replace the Jews as receivers of the kingdom. The New Testament is saturated with clear statements as to who the new Israel is.

Peter describes them in these words:
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light”.1 Peter 2:9, 10

Here is the new nation which replaces the nation of Israel. The Gentiles who will receive the true Messiah now enter into the New Covenant, ratified by the blood of the cross, and become the true spiritual Israel of God. The Bible says that they are counted as the actual seed of Abraham:
“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” .Galatians 3:29

Paul makes it even clearer in Romans 9:8. “They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” Again, Paul wrote, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart”. Romans 2:28, 29

As we study Armageddon, it is tremendously important to keep this mind, that the kingdom prophecies given by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc., have a double application. One to be fulfilled locally; the other to be fulfilled on a worldwide scale in the last days. And the church takes the place of the nation as God’s true chosen people. With this background we are prepared to study the subject of Armageddon. That world-ending conflict is tied closely to the things we have just stated about spiritual Israel and a most amazing parallel exists between what happened to ancient Israel and the events concerning spiritual Israel in the book of Revelation.

Ancient Israel ------------------------------- Spiritual Israel
Jer. 50:33,34 --Persecuted by Babylon --------Rev. 17:6
Dan. 3:13 ------Forced to worship image ------Rev. 13:15
Dan. 4:30 ------Called “Babylon the Great” ----Rev. 17:5
Jer. 51:13,14 --Babylon sits on many waters --Rev. 17:1
Isa. 44:27,28 --Rescued—dried Euphrates -----Rev. 16:12
Jer. 51:6-8 -----Called out of Babylon ----------Rev. 18:4
Isa. 45:1 -------Rescuer called the anointed --- Dan. 9:25
Isa. 41:2, 25 ---Both rescuers from east -------Mat. 24:27, Rev. 7:2

You will notice that God’s people had almost the same experience in the Old Testament and the New Testament. They were forced to worship an image of Babylon, and were rescued by a king from the east who dried up the river Euphrates to set them free. Looking at the two we can find the similarities between the two people, one literal and the other spiritual.

The church at the end or God’s people of the last days, will be persecuted and threatened with death just like ancient Israel. In the book of Revelation they are delivered from spiritual Babylon in connection with the battle of Armageddon:

“And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. ... And he gathered them together in a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon”. Revelation 16:12-16

So now we have the setting for Armageddon, and now we will go into describing what happens.

And your point is?

I'll bet you think that the harlot of Babylon is the Roman Catholic Church, don't you?

 

[reddogs]

And your point is?

I'll bet you think that the harlot of Babylon is the Roman Catholic Church, don't you?

Here is a good link to answer your questions...

 

[reddogs]

Here is the Spirit of Prophecy on the battle of Armageddon:

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Rev. 17:14.

We need to study the pouring out of the seventh vial. The powers of evil will not yield up the conflict without a struggle. But Providence has a part to act in the battle of Armageddon. When the earth is lighted with the glory of the angel of Revelation eighteen, the religious elements, good and evil, will awake from slumber, and the armies of the living God will take the field.

Four mighty angels hold back the powers of this earth till the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads. The nations of the world are eager for conflict; but they are held in check by the angels. When this restraining power is removed, there will come a time of trouble and anguish. Deadly instruments of warfare will be invented. Vessels, with their living cargo, will be entombed in the great deep. All who have not the spirit of truth will unite under the leadership of satanic agencies. But they are to be kept under control till the time shall come for the great battle of Armageddon.

Every form of evil is to spring into intense activity. Evil angels unite their powers with evil men, and as they have been in constant conflict and attained an experience in the best modes of deception and battle, and have been strengthening for centuries, they will not yield the last great final contest without a desperate struggle. All the world will be on one side or the other of the question. The battle of Armageddon will be fought, and that day must find none of us sleeping. Wide awake we must be, as wise virgins having oil in our vessels with our lamps. . . .

The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. Scenes of stupendous interest are right upon us." Ellen G. White Estate: Daily Devotional - Maranatha

 

[BobRyan]

Revelation was primarily written by John to describe the present situation that Christians had to contend with in the Roman Empire.

Not true at all.

1 Peter 1:13 fix your hope completely on the second coming.
Rev 19 - the second coming
Rev 6 - the second coming
15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Much of the imagery can reliably describe the second coming and events that shortly precede it.

As all Protestants agreed until a few decades ago - " 19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this"

Rev 22 -- the focus is on the second coming.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”
Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

Rev 15:8 Christ's work as High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary interceding on behalf of man -- ends just before the Rev 16 seven-last-plagues so that the plagues can fall on mankind.

Protestant historisist model was right when it comes to prophecy. It contains events from John's day and then all the way to the future. Thus Rev 12 - we have the 1260 years of the dark ages that happens after the ascension of Christ and before the pope taken captive in 1798.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is the Spirit of Prophecy on the battle of Armageddon:

ok but that source is not going to be accepted by Pentecostals such as Oscar.

 

[BobRyan]

And your point is?

I'll bet you think that the harlot of Babylon is the Roman Catholic Church, don't you?

I think you are talking about the Protestant historicist model again -- right? Is it your claim that Seventh-day Adventists should adopt Catholic views and not Protestant ones? What is your thinking there?

=================
Christian eschatological views - Wikipedia

Historicism (See the eschatology of Martin Luther, John Calvin, Joseph Mede, Isaac Newton, John Gill, Matthew Henry, E. B. Elliott, Henry Grattan Guinness, and Charles Haddon Spurgeon; for contemporary cases see especially Ian Paisley and Seventh-day Adventist eschatology): the book of Revelation portrays the span of church history, from the 1st century to the return of Christ: events in Revelation are symbolically interpreted to portray literal events in the life of the Church.

Historicism (Christianity) - Wikipedia


Historicism, a method of interpretation of Biblical prophecies, associates symbols with historical persons, nations or events. It can result in a view of progressive and continuous fulfillment of prophecy covering the period from Biblical times to the Second Coming. Almost[quantify] all Protestant Reformers from the Reformation into the 19th century held historicist views.[1][need quotation to verify] The main primary texts of interest to Christian-historicists include apocalyptic literature, such as the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation. Commentators have also applied historicist methods to ancient Jewish history, to the Roman Empire, to Islam, to the Papacy, to the Modern era, and to the end time.

 

[BobRyan]

Living at the time of Noah - a "preacher of righteousness" we can be assured Noah was getting "push back" against his prepare for the end of the world message.

I think that those who are obsessed with end-time events are looking at the wrong end of things.

What's the point of being an authority on end-time events when the foundation of basic conversion to Christ is unsure and there is a likelihood of ending up in hell?

We have pure doctrine including the doctrine on justification by faith and salvation - so then starting from that point -- it makes no sense to reject what the Word of God says about the times in which we live and the warnings from God's Word to be prepared - as 1Thess 5 says - they are in darkness who "do not know" the warnings about the end of time and it will overtake the sleepers as "a thief" in the night.

 

[BobRyan]

Many think that Armageddon is about the literal Jews, or the literal nation of Israel will completely reverse itself and become Christians?

Certainly it is true that there are many false teachings where people are ignoring almost entirely the "details" in the Word of God given to man so that we need not be deceived at the end of time. Matthew 24 states clearly that the deceptions at the end of time will be so conclusive that even the elect would be deceived if God had not given them revelation and warning.

Same is seen in Rev 13 - all the world deceived by the signs and wonders that are coming.

===================== having said that...
Rev 16 gives the symbol and also its interpretation.

Rev 16 (6th plague in vs 12-14)
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

And where do we see "Battle" after the 6th plague?

Answer - Rev 19
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God

This is where the "Kings of the earth" are "Gathered for battle"

Rev 19
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

And that war resumes after the 1000 year millennium
Rev 20
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

=====

So then it is not until the 6th plague that the devil directs all national leaders to assemble their armies and prepare for battle. And in Rev 19 we see them assemble to make war -- but not on the saints.

The plagues come as a result of the death decree issued against the saints at the end of time - this is long before the 6th plague. Once the plagues start to fall - probation has closed and the saints cannot be killed - in addition the saints don't fight against the kings of the Earth or their armies.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Revelation was primarily written by John to describe the present situation that Christians had to contend with in the Roman Empire. Much of the imagery can reliably describe the downfall of the Romans and God's judgment against them.

The vision of the events in Heaven are those that were happening in John's time, and also in ours - before the Second Coming of Christ. It encourages the suffering Christians of John's time that no matter what happens to them, Jesus Christ will emerge and the overall Lord and victor. In fact, He is the victor at this present time for those in the kingdom of God.

I don't think that Revelation can be used as reliable doctrine for end-time events to come. Many have tried and have been proved totally wrong.

Apocalyptic literature is symbolic and cannot be taken literally. It is not a reliable foundation for doctrine.

Revelation starts with Jesus' instruction and warning to the churches that existed in John's time. We can't really apply them to our churches because our modern churches are so divided and factionalised that the description of the churches in Revelation cannot really fit.

I think that those who are obsessed with end-time events are looking at the wrong end of things. They need to look to the genuineness of their own conversion - whether they are truly converted to Christ. They need to work on making their election sure, and to do that, they need to study the promises in the Word that point to establishing a good foundation for true conversion and to examine themselves to ensure that they are true converts to Christ and not religious hypocrites. What's the point of being an authority on end-time events when the foundation of basic conversion to Christ is unsure and there is a likelihood of ending up in hell?

And this is the foundation

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

DO YOU?

Have a great SABBATH day today the seventh day of the week.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Living at the time of Noah - a "preacher of righteousness" we can be assured Noah was getting "push back" against his prepare for the end of the world message.





We have pure doctrine including the doctrine on justification by faith and salvation - so then starting from that point -- it makes no sense to reject what the Word of God says about the times in which we live and the warnings from God's Word to be prepared - as 1Thess 5 says - they are in darkness who "do not know" the warnings about the end of time and it will overtake the sleepers as "a thief" in the night.

I think that the description of what will happen in 1 and 2 Thessalonians is more reliable than trying to extract clear doctrine from Revelation.

The preparation is to make our calling and election sure. This means that we have to be absolutely sure that we are genuinely converted to Christ and not just having "got" religion. Once we know that we are truly converted to Christ, and are getting ahead with growing in grace and giving godly service to the Lord, then we know that the Day will not come to us as a thief in the night. We will be prepared through our conversion and our godly life. Because we are in constant fellowship with the Lord through prayer and the Word, we will be sensitive to the Holy Spirit, and when that day comes, we will know.

The ones who will be unprepared and taken by surprise are the ones who have rejected Christ and think they have plenty of time to enjoy life. The day of their death will come as a surprise, and they will find themselves in hell before they realise that they have died. If you had to question anyone in hell, they would say to you, "I didn't expect to come here. I thought I was good enough, going to church, doing good works, and being very religious, but now I realise that those things weren't good enough without Christ". The unbeliever who rejects Christ will curse himself for hearing the gospel and rejecting it, thinking that he or she had plenty of time to work out ways of avoiding hell. But the day came when the cord of life broke, their foot slipped, and down they went into the bottomless pit.

So, everyone needs to fully examine themselves to ensure that they are in the faith. That is the preparation for either the day of their death, or the Day of the Lord.

 

[BobRyan]

I think that the description of what will happen in 1 and 2 Thessalonians is more reliable than trying to extract clear doctrine from Revelation.

2 Tim 3:16 says "all scripture" for instruction for doctrine for correction. The books dedicated to telling us what will happen - should be disqualified from our understanding of "What will happen". Obviously.

God is the one writing - "All scripture given by inspiration from God" our job is not to tell God that what He conveys through His prophets is just not that important.

The preparation is to make our calling and election sure.

Both and... not either-or slicing up what we want to ignore.

This means that we have to be absolutely sure that we are genuinely converted to Christ

True - but one truth cannot be bent to delete another. God is the one that decided content.

and not just having "got" religion. Once we know that we are truly converted to Christ, and are getting ahead with growing in grace and giving godly service to the Lord, then we know that the Day will not come to us as a thief in the night.

that would ONLY be true if your acceptance of God - meant that you accept all of God's Word instead of feeling at liberty slice out large chunks of it. The only reason the saved are protected is that the do not do the very thing you suggest.

1 Thess 5
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

We are "not in darkness" because we have the light of God's Word warning and informing - as He did at the time of Noah. The failed "pay no attention to that warning in God's Word about what is about to happen in the future" sort of argument - fails the test of scripture, fails to be the "enlightened" response, fails to wake the sleepers of Matthew 25.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

2 Tim 3:16 says "all scripture" for instruction for doctrine for correction. The books dedicated to telling us what will happen - should be disqualified from our understanding of "What will happen". Obviously.

God is the one writing - "All scripture given by inspiration from God" our job is not to tell God that what He conveys through His prophets is just not that important.



Both and... not either-or slicing up what we want to ignore.



True - but one truth cannot be bent to delete another. God is the one that decided content.



that would ONLY be true if your acceptance of God - meant that you accept all of God's Word instead of feeling at liberty slice out large chunks of it. The only reason the saved are protected is that the do not do the very thing you suggest.

1 Thess 5
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

We are "not in darkness" because we have the light of God's Word warning and informing - as He did at the time of Noah.

When Paul wrote his letter to the Thessalonians, John had not yet arrived on Patmos, so the book of Revelation did not exist at the time. So, when the Thessalonians knew that the Day of the Lord would not overtake them like a thief in the night, it was not on the basis of what is written in Revelation.

It is a mistake to take passages of Scripture out of their original context. Most false cults have taken Revelation and tried to interpret it according to current events and totally ignored why John wrote it in the first place. The original context of the imagery of the beast, antiChrist etc., was the Roman Empire, and every image in Revelation fits Rome and its activities perfectly. The events in heaven are described as to what was going on right then in John's time. There are references to what was going to be in heaven during the final Judgment and the celebration of the saints around the throne of God.

But there is not enough clear evidence in Revelation to support a future tribulation, antiChrist, beast, Armageddon, etc. The reason why John wrote the way he did was to give the message to his contempories in language which would have been unintelligible to unbelievers. This is because of the opposition and persecution of Christians that existed at the time.

John says that the events "must shortly come to pass", not more than 2000 years later. In actual fact, the Roman Empire disintegrated and Rome was sacked and burned. This shows that the imagery in Revelation fits more perfectly into the events in the Roman Empire than anywhere else. Therefore John wrote Revelation to encourage the persecuted and suffering believers of his time, and it should be an encouragement to all persecuted and suffering believers anywhere, that the message is that no matter what happens, Jesus Christ will be the final victor.

 

[Dave-W]

Armageddon = Anglicization of Har (mountain of) Megiddo.

So it would be the valley in front of this mountain. It might be referring to the plain of Jezreel, between Megiddo and Carmel.

 

[BobRyan]

I think that the description of what will happen in 1 and 2 Thessalonians is more reliable than trying to extract clear doctrine from Revelation.

2 Tim 3:16 says "all scripture" for instruction for doctrine for correction. The books dedicated to telling us what will happen - should be disqualified from our understanding of "What will happen". Obviously.

God is the one writing - "All scripture given by inspiration from God" our job is not to tell God that what He conveys through His prophets is just not that important.

The preparation is to make our calling and election sure.

Both and... not either-or slicing up what we want to ignore.

This means that we have to be absolutely sure that we are genuinely converted to Christ

True - but one truth cannot be bent to delete another. God is the one that decided content.

and not just having "got" religion. Once we know that we are truly converted to Christ, and are getting ahead with growing in grace and giving godly service to the Lord, then we know that the Day will not come to us as a thief in the night.

that would ONLY be true if your acceptance of God - meant that you accept all of God's Word instead of feeling at liberty slice out large chunks of it. The only reason the saved are protected is that the do not do the very thing you suggest.

1 Thess 5
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

We are "not in darkness" because we have the light of God's Word warning and informing - as He did at the time of Noah.

When Paul wrote his letter to the Thessalonians, John had not yet arrived on Patmos, so the book of Revelation did not exist at the time. So, when the Thessalonians knew that the Day of the Lord would not overtake them like a thief in the night, it was not on the basis of what is written in Revelation.

But our information does include Revelation and what is more it is "The Holy Spirit says" Hebrews 3:7 that is the source/intelligence/speaker in scripture as the NT points out. It is not "Paul's best guess".

So then The teaching of Christ in Matthew 24 about the 2nd coming had already been given to the NT saints even before the cross. The same thief in the night message is there as well as the need to keep alert - that we find in 1Thess 5. And we all know that the ministry of Christ on Earth precedes the writing of Paul's letter to the Thessalonians.

It is a mistake to take passages of Scripture out of their original context. Most false cults have taken Revelation and tried to interpret it according to current events and totally ignored why John wrote it in the first place.

Emotionalism and name-calling-as-proof aside. John wrote as did all Bible writers -- at the dictate of God the Holy Spirit. As Hebrews 3:7 and 2Peter 1:21 point out. The Holy Spirit says in the actual book of Revelation that it was intended to show what the future would be. -- See chapter 1.

Chapter 19 and 20 and 22 all point to the 2nd coming and to events that follow just as 1 Thess 4 points to the 2nd coming.

This is irrefutable - and no amount of calling any group a "cult" changes the facts noted.

The original context of the imagery of the beast, antiChrist etc., was the Roman Empire, and every image in Revelation fits Rome and its activities perfectly.

Totally false.

Revelation 19 is the 2nd coming and has nothing at all to do with the pagan roman empire of John's day. In any case most Christian denominations recognize this fact so not sure why the "easy part" is even being debated at this point.

The events in heaven are described as to what was going on right then in John's time.

Not true at all - of all events in Revelation -- only some of them deal with the things that "are" but as chapter 1 points out - much of the book deals with what is to come in the future.

There are references to what was going to be in heaven during the final Judgment and the celebration of the saints around the throne of God.

Rev 15 for example.

But all that means is that your own limit set on Revelation fails even by your own account of it.

Revelation 16, 19,20,21,22 all in the future - and it is irrefutable.
So also is Rev 15 in the future.
So also the 6th seal - Rev 6:12-17 at the 2nd coming and in our future still.

But there is not enough clear evidence in Revelation to support a future tribulation, antiChrist, beast,

Until you read it and note that John is relying on the baseline already given in the book of Daniel. Failing to read and understand the book of Daniel as context for the book of Revelation results in a failure to understand the book of Revelation. Does not matter what denomination you belong to - failing at the first step results in erronious speculation throughout.

 

[BobRyan]

John says that the events "must shortly come to pass", not more than 2000 years later. .

You have undermined your own argument by proving your view is not the result of applied exegesis but rather eisegesis. You argue against the author's intent and the obvious and apparent meaning the text he writes would have to his readers - when you appeal to information John and his readers did not have to get to your alternate rendering!

When you make an argument of the form "the text does not really have its obvious and apparent meaning after all the Earth has gone on for 2000 years since this was written" -- you appeal to a detail that neither the author nor his readers would have had to get to your "interpretation".

=== John uses the same soon-coming model as does Christ for his readers.

Jesus said "behold I come quickly" Rev 22 -- we are still waiting for the 2nd coming. Here again we have the easy and obvious part that all Christian denominations will admit.

Revelation 3:11 (NLT)

11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take away your crown.

Revelation 22:7 (NLT)

7 “Look, I am coming soon! Blessed are those who obey the words of prophecy written in this book.”

Revelation 22:12 (NLT)

12 “Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds.

Revelation 22:20 (NLT)

20 He who is the faithful witness to all these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon!”
Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!

From others:

Philippians 4:5 (NLT)

5 Let everyone see that you are considerate in all you do. Remember, the Lord is coming soon.

1 Peter 4:7 (NLT)

7 The end of the world is coming soon. Therefore, be earnest and disciplined in your prayers.

1 Peter 1:13 "fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ"